Another fatal dog attack

[cauda equina]

After the AS had a 'little go' at the grandfather's GS he would have been wise to go home, or perhaps the trainer should have sent the AS home
Of course it's easy to be wise after the event but I agree, taking a child to a class for reactive dogs sounds a really bad idea

 

[CrunchieBoi]

What has gone so horribly horribly wrong in the world of dogs that such a thing as a reactive dogs class is even a thing?

 

[Tiddlypom]

A class for reactive dogs held out in the open on a playing field?

Wtaf? What could possibly go wrong?

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

There appears to be a training venue/company around that location, offering reactivity classes and 'reactive pack walks' and they have gone off-line which does make me wonder if they were the trainers involved. I won't share/name on here as obviously I don't know that for sure and sounds like there is legal stuff going on.

Of course the AS owner needs to be held responsible and unfortunately I do think the AS needs to be euthanised, however I also think about the responsibility of the trainer to a) have multiple large breed reactive dogs in a group setting - presumably unmuzzled, and b) allow a child to be present.

I'm also wondering about the distinction between reactive and aggressive. It's one thing a dog that is wary of other dogs, or barks at cars or whatever, but quite another for one to make a beeline for a child like that.

 

[CorvusCorax]

There have always been reactive dogs and specific training for a long time, why wouldn't there be? But doing a group class in a public park with children in attendance sounds insane and I very much doubt whether they were insured to be there/in that context.

 

[CrunchieBoi]

There have always been reactive dogs and specific training for a long time, why wouldn't there be?

Not seen anything of the sort anywhere near me until the few years. If you had a reactive dog that you wanted fixing instead of simply managing you would book 1-1 sessions with a trainer.

An open air class of reactive/aggressive dogs sounds like an absolute disaster waiting to happen.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Not seen anything of the sort anywhere near me until the few years. If you had a reactive dog that you wanted fixing instead of simply managing you would book 1-1 sessions with a trainer.

An open air class of reactive/aggressive dogs sounds like an absolute disaster waiting to happen.

Please read my whole post

Whilst I have said a public park is the wrong place for such training/a group class is not the way to do it, doing this sort of training in a vacuum with no distractions at all away from all potential triggers, is completely pointless/a rip-off.

ETA: I work/have worked (unpaid, which is probably the key, here) with lots of reactive dogs.
As a generalisation, having a load of dogs out in a 60/45/30 minute class just satisfies a human's need to feel like they've got their money's worth/fits in with a modern busy lifestyle and is completely at odds with the way most dogs learn. No trainer I respect would dream of routinely keeping their own dog out for 30 minutes at a time in one go.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I also note the disparity between a poster getting mostly, absolutely pilloried for not enjoying having lots of small reactive dogs barking at her/her dogs and the inference that, that's ok, that's what small dogs do, and the idea of people (however misguided or ill-advised or in the worst possible context) wanting/seeking help with a large reactive dog. Small dogs popping off at everything aren't necessarily happy/secure in their world and often need help too.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Is anyone having a go at the owners for seeking help with their reactive dogs? I don't see that.

The issue is surely with the way the training seems to have been conducted in a group session in a public place with at least one child present.

I fully agree about the poster being pilloried for reacting to being gobbed off at by multiple small dogs. That was unacceptable behaviour from the handler and the dogs, but she has been belittled by many for overreacting .

 

[CrunchieBoi]

Please read my whole post

Whilst I have said a public park is the wrong place for such training/a group class is not the way to do it, doing this sort of training in a vacuum with no distractions at all away from all potential triggers, is completely pointless/a rip-off.

None of the 1-1 sessions we've booked have been performed with no triggers present. I imagine the trainer would have found it pretty much impossible to determine how best to help the individual dog if that had been the case.

 

[CorvusCorax]

The issue is surely with the way the training seems to have been conducted in a group session in a public place with at least one child present.

And I've said that was 'insane'. There was some inference that it was awful that such a class was even a thing.

Somewhere between not dealing with it at all/training in a vacuum, and a mad public free-for-all, there is a place for small, appropriate, controlled group classes/short sessions to deal with reactive dogs in a safe/secure environment, and there always has been, IME. There are dogs here that I would never have on the field at the same time, and others that work ok together and help each other. But that's us knowing the dogs/assessing them properly and not trying to run a one-size-fits-all/conveyer belt outfit.
We welcome kids and families but they generally know how to behave and the kids are not allowed on the field unless it's a junior handler with their own dog.

 

[DabDab]

The first post saying about that kind of training session being a thing I read slightly differently to you CC....as in, it's a worrying thing if the need for this kind of training is now so great that routine group training has become a normal part of the neighbourhood dog scene.

But like another poster said, it's a bit dependent on how it was billed. Is this a training class for reactive dogs or those known to be aggressive towards humans

 

[CrunchieBoi]

The first post saying about that kind of training session being a thing I read slightly differently to you CC....as in, it's a worrying thing if the need for this kind of training is now so great that routine group training has become a normal part of the neighbourhood dog scene.

But like another poster said, it's a bit dependent on how it was billed. Is this a training class for reactive dogs or those known to be aggressive towards humans

This is what I'm wondering as well, the reactive dogs we had were all reactive due to frustration at being on a lead. if they were off-lead they would have been perfectly fine and were in no way aggressive to people or other dogs.

Surely the trainer has to know the difference between reactivity and out and out aggression for each dog after some form of 1-1 assessment before they're invited to take part in a class like this? Maybe they had done so, and this was the first time it had shown any aggressive behaviour, but I imagine the trainer isn't going to have a lot of fun with their insurance.

 

[Morwenna]

I went to socialisation classes aimed at reactive dogs with my old boy. They were run by a behaviourist and dogs would never be worked together unless they were ready. If, like me, you had a dog that was reactive to people as well as dogs the other owners would stand well back and give you space while you were working. These classes are really good for reactive dogs if they are run properly. It sounds like this class was quite the opposite….

 

[marmalade76]

There have always been reactive dogs and specific training for a long time, why wouldn't there be? But doing a group class in a public park with children in attendance sounds insane and I very much doubt whether they were insured to be there/in that context.

I'm afraid I do think things have changed, from the types of dogs kept to the way they're handled and disciplined, the environment they're kept in and even the fact that there seems to be more stigma around having troublesome animals PTS.

 

[skinnydipper]

Surely the trainer has to know the difference between reactivity and out and out aggression for each dog after some form of 1-1 assessment before they're invited to take part in a class like this?

The problem is that anyone can call themselves a dog trainer or behaviourist. Someone giving themselves a title doesn't mean they know shit from clay.

 

[CorvusCorax]

If if misunderstood, can I blame it on having a really long day. Interestingly, in a lot of these cases, the landlord is often the one held liable, then no one wants to host dog training/clubs, then everyone suffers.

 

[CorvusCorax]

This is what I'm wondering as well, the reactive dogs we had were all reactive due to frustration at being on a lead. if they were off-lead they would have been perfectly fine and were in no way aggressive to people or other dogs.

I personally don't take that risk with unknown dogs, or even known dogs TBH. Everything is fine until it's not.

But apart from anything an Anatolian Shepherd belongs on the plains, alone, looking after livestock, not in a suburban park on a leash at a public class for reactive dogs, with kids running about.

 

[CrunchieBoi]

The problem is that anyone can call themselves a dog trainer or behaviourist. Someone giving themselves a title doesn't mean they know shit from clay.

Aye, there seems to be a lot of very poor dog trainers around these days. So glad we found a good un' that actually knows what he's doing.

 

[CrunchieBoi]

I personally don't take that risk with unknown dogs, or even known dogs TBH. Everything is fine until it's not.

You don't allow your dogs to socialise with any other dogs or is this just training you're on about?

 

[Tiddlypom]

A three week course for £80 for your reactive dog. Grand.

 

[CorvusCorax]

You don't allow your dogs to socialise with any other dogs or is this just training you're on about?

Both. My dogs are large and powerful and I do not risk uncontrolled interactions with unknown dogs and neither should anyone else, if their head is screwed on. The middle one is the most social and he can have polite meetings with some dogs, but if I don't like the body language from afar, then I'm on my way.

Unless I'm training and they are not interfering with my/their life, other people's dogs are really none of my or their business.

ETA I walk past a dog park quite a lot and nothing would possess me to use one. So many scraps kicking off between strange dogs.

 

[CrunchieBoi]

Both. My dogs are large and powerful and I do not risk uncontrolled interactions with unknown dogs and neither should anyone else, if their head is screwed on. The middle one is the most social and he can have polite meetings with some dogs, but if I don't like the body language from afar, then I'm on my way.

Unless I'm training, other people's dogs are really none of my or their business.

So you do allow for greetings with other dogs provided you judge the body language between them is non-confrontational and the other owner is OK with them greeting. I would hope that's what most people do. Our three youngest aren't allowed to greet other dogs, but the eldest is because she's calm and collected and is better at communicating in dog.

 

[CorvusCorax]

So you do allow for greetings with other dogs provided you judge the body language between them is non-confrontational and the other owner is OK with them greeting. I would hope that's what most people do. Our three youngest aren't allowed to greet other dogs, but the eldest is because she's calm and collected and is better at communicating in dog.

Only with the middle one, not on a daily basis as it's not really a requirement and generally only with people/dogs I know from being out and about. The eldest and his daughter can be quite sharp and are not interested in/actively avoid and dislike contact with other dogs. I generally like neutral dogs and those who don't seek out/obsess about contact with other dogs and/or people. I like to be their biggest attraction

 

[Jenko109]

One of mine is never allowed to greet other dogs. She can be reactive, although is in no way aggressive.

She does not benefit from interacting with others. The best thing for her is to be worked around other dogs that she does not know, without interaction.

We go to group agility classes and she is mega, rarely ever showing reactivity. We can go to shows and she will settle nicely and work well in the ring, despite there being large numbers of dogs.

If I allowed her to play with strange dogs, I honestly think it would ruin all our hard work and I would have a much harder time managing her on lead reactivity.


In contrast, I also have a whippet who is sweet natured and polite. We do sometimes take walks to the local playing field and if another owner agrees, he is occasionally allowed a play with a new dog. That said, this would never include bull breeds regardless of how happy I was with the body language.

Dogs dont need to interact with other dogs. It's the owners who think all dogs should get to say hello that create monsters.

 

[CrunchieBoi]

Only with the middle one, not on a daily basis as it's not really a requirement and generally only with people/dogs I know from being out and about. The eldest and his daughter can be quite sharp and are not interested in/actively avoid and dislike contact with other dogs. I generally like neutral dogs and those who don't seek out/obsess about contact with other dogs and/or people. I like to be their biggest attraction

No different to what any sensible person would be doing then. Be nice if more people did the same.

 

[ester]

The parent has commented on the cambridge live fb page that the daughter was part of her grandads pack

because u clearly don’t understand the meaning of reactive dogs! Ignorant people like yourself straight away think bad which is not the case! This class was to do a pack dog walk but was unable due to being so hot, my daughter is part of her grandads dog pack. She had every right to be there

As normal, only ignorant, people think reactive dogs bad which is not the case! It was for a pack dog walking class, and as my daughter is part of her grandads dogs pack, she had every right to be there!!

which tells you what you need to know

 

[Tiddlypom]

 

[Clodagh]

You don't allow your dogs to socialise with any other dogs or is this just training you're on about?

My dogs do not socialise with other dogs. I don’t socialise with other people mainly, if given the choice.
In a work environment my dogs are fine with all other dogs but I have no wish for them to want to chat to every passer by.

 

[YorksG]

We actively prevent our dogs from socialising with dogs they don't know, often to the dismay of other dogs owners. That is a their problem and isn't about to become my dogs problem, if I can possiblyprevent it