Ask a Parelli student....no holds barred....you asked, I giveth.

[eahotson]

While I will continue to complain about Catwalk I hope I don't hate all people who practise Parelli.As TIC says, we must put down the guns and see the people.See the one thing we have in common, a love of horses and a wish to doour best by them however we do it.

 

[Natch]

Once agian,my objection is not to the kit/DVDs ect ebing avalable to buy,but the drive to get people to buy them at what is IMO an inflated price-it's purely money grabbing.
I have seen very fe direct questions answered,but lots met with "If you buy XXX DVD,you will find the answer there"

People have paid to see the demos allready,it should not be too hard to give an answer that does not involve making a sale (even a shorter less in depth answer then their DVDs give).

I love that smiley

I too, get frustrated with the "well you'd understand it if you bought my DVD/book/equipment" idea. I'm sure i think it comes down to how you've handled the question; and Parelli seems to put off a lot of people by appearing to try to churn them through the machine.

I for one, would be more inclined to buy someone's DVD at a trade show, for example, if I had approached them with a question about my horse's behaviour and they had answered, given me a couple of ideas of things to try with him, and then recommended the most relevant learning material.

 

[Bay_Beasty]

While I will continue to complain about Catwalk I hope I don't hate all people who practise Parelli.As TIC says, we must put down the guns and see the people.See the one thing we have in common, a love of horses and a wish to doour best by them however we do it.

This is brilliantly said!

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

TBF,at the start it was.
Christianity started off as a small band of people saying something that most did not want to hear or accept.
Most of our texts were written hundreds of years after the death of Jesus at which point what he said had started to gain popularity.

As a RC,I still have issue with people following it blindly

YUP
while no cult, as defined by websters dictionary or any other standard, the paralell to religion is stagering.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

If I was the OP, then I don't think I would bother to reply at all!. She/he made a geniune offer to explain certain elements of Parelli, has stated they do not follow it blindly and question parts of it, yet the threat has turned in an almighty bashing of Parelli and in turn, the OP. The post did not start with "Parelli is king and everything else is wrong" but you would think that was the case judging by the responses!. There are some geniune questions and response intermingled which I would like to see answered but the bulk of the responses are uncalled for.

I don't practise/use Parelli, but would be geniunely interested to understand more - I think we can all agree that with horses you never stop learning but the way most people have jumped on this particular bandwagon, I think we might just have lost a chance to have some questions answered.

thank you luci, but I since I borrowed harry potters invisible cloak, I am quite thick skined. I have recieved some messages not to bother, I am wasting my time, no one wants to hear about parelli. but I am H E L L bent on proving them wrong. do not misunderstand what I said and take it as conversion. I am not trying to get anyone to do parelli or NH in the slightest. just to hear, that it may not be what you think it is, not all things appear as they seem, and at the very least we MIGHT be able to co-exist. this is mostly for parelli people. to see that with the right attitude, maybe we wont be judged so harshly. I have not been back to the stonliegh thread as I just can't keep up. not even come close. and I rather prefer to focus my energy in a positive and construvtive manner, than a destructive manner, throwing effort after foolishness.

 

[foolforahorse]

Please explain to me what Linda is trying to accomplish here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyF2QqP29DU

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Sure I will think of more once I get this bloody eyelash out of my eye! ARRRRR.
And thankyou for takign the time to post and reply to us.

Well, this is a tall order for sure, does your waiter run at the local pub when he see's you coming LOL


1) Why are the Parelli's so resistant to any form of critasism?

I think it is a natural human response. that is my honest opinion. I don't think anyone likes scrutiny or microscopes. I endured three hours from my boss today and can assure you, it was no fun. still have my job
but I do agree that if you are confident in your product you should be more open for questioning. but I think since pat has no problem saying things about other methods, mainly traditional ones (linda doesn't really do this, I don't see arrogance from her in the least) that unless you are mesmerized from the beginning, you are likely a at least a little defensive by what he says. so if you were the later, the defensive person doing the scrutinizing, you are less likely to be objective. I am sure he has gone thru that kind of 'questioning" and cares not to repeat it. I know I wouldn't. does it make it right? who knows.

2)On a personal level,do you feel the buissnes side has over taken the horse care side for the Parelli's?

Yes I do. IMHO I don't think it was intentional. this may seem a little degrading, but I picture Pat like my child. the one with the cock-eyed optimism and big dreams, that lack the adult dash of reality. my child always has some scheme cooking, like selling pokemon cards on ebay to get rich, or creating thier own club penguin blog to become famous. the level of plagerism in my house is down right illegal, but if the disney police want to arrest a 10yo kid, who am I to stop them

I think pat had a dream to make the world a better place for horses. he has natural charisma that draws people to him, and the more he did, the more they wanted. as everyone knows a single person can not be everywhere all at the same time, thus the invention of dvd's. social media has made him famous, and now infamous. I think as a not everyone is great at everything, they entrust a certain amount to someone to help them in things they are not good at. pat is a horseman. and this thing is evolving, and thier program has always been the inovator, to be copied, thus suject to always being in unchartered water. some things will be successfull and others will fail miserably, just as in most things in life.

3)Following on
Why is the required equipment so damn expensive?

just like all our favorite stores, prices are a bit inflated to cause you to believe a sale or club discount is soooooo great. if you can find a loop hole 'round this time honored business tradition, please let victoria secret know having said that, they are superior in quality, and I think I answered about design, production, ordering in bulk, flooring, and the like, if it were my money floating out there in "credit" land, I know I would want to get as much back as quickly as possible, before the bank takes it all.

this is just my honest opinion, the value of most of the educational material is worth every penny. I think the price point on the patterns is way to high for what you get, and for liberty and horse behavior, but that one is chock full of the most fascinating horse psychology ever. the price is rediculous though. trust me, we students gripe about price more than anything else. but usually there is a promotional offer coming 'round the bend. however not riding 6 white horses.
the get started dvd is a good value, though the shipping can screw that up. it was wildly high to start, but I think we beat them down on that.

3)A,B,C,D= ok, i know this is a tall order, and while I will not argue that one brand of savvy string is drastically better than another. my first carrot stick was a broom handle and let me say, the carrot stick is waaaay better. I too tried the bale twine, no weight in it. and there IS a far cry's difference between a carrot/savvy stick than a reg whip. it is stiff with no give to use to push a horse without bending, giving you a safe distance to touch a horse from. yes a lead rope can achieve many of the same things, but the very weight of it, makes your arm tired and too easy to give up before a horse if the situation arrises. my advice, so you can make up your own mind, scientifically (how i did it) is to make your own and compare to feel of a c/s+string, you will see/feel the difference. I also have cheap rope halters, and some do fit different, and twist on the horses head. I have made my own halters and leads as well to save money. clintons halter is extremely stiff and thin and rubs a horses face raw in no time flat, I had one and couldn't sell it fast enough. I have never had ever fur rubs from a parelli halter or similar types. so can similar products do the job at a fraction of the cost? YES. And many people do parelli with them. if you were a business person with a product to sell, that you know is quality, would you direct people to your cheaper competitors? Um no. I cannot speak of whether or not "parelli" brand equiptment is a must to get started with an instructor or clinic. the one I went to, I used my home made 22' line, and a cheap halter, but I checked ahead of time to make sure it was ok. if they had said no, I wouldn't have attended.

4)This is the thing I have most issue with.
Why try to make Parelli methods the only ones people listen to?
Other methods enjoy equal (if not greater) sucess and are employed day in,day out by many more people around the world.
Any good horseman will understand the need to look at what people are doing,then think about it and decide if it is something usefull.
The attempted removing of that by Parelli instructors is a worry.

Ok, this goes back to selling your product. while I agree, there are many things to learn from outside the parelli world, I have heard pat say with my own two ears, he doesn't care if you follow his program or someone elses, but if a program is what you are looking for, you need to FOLLOW the program. the reason is most, while similar yet different, they are set up in a sequence, from easiest to hardest, and one thing is based on the fundamental understanding of something else. if you take something out of context or sequence, it can lose all meaning or value. but of course you are going to say yours is the best, if you didn't people wouldnt listen to you. imagine this:

"I know alot of great things, you should learn from my ideas. keep in mind I am no where near the best, in fact you can find all this info else where, at a better price, from a more knowlegabel person, with a better product"

how silly is that?

And as far as the instructors go. if I have a problem with my mercedes, I am not taking it to a kia dealer to solve the problem. they do infact have a brand, and he is certifying that if I want to learn the parelli method, than I will NOT be lead astray by a certified parelli instructor. not that anything else has less value, it is that you can be assured that you wont get anything but parelli from one of his instructors. Pat is giving his word on that, and I can understand, not allowing them to teach ANYTHING but parelli. but I doubt that they cannot watch others. but I am not privvy to the contractual details of that.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Tongue and Cheek, Are you from FiSH?

I have NO idea what fish is, other than something gordon ramsey thinks no one but himself can cook properly, so I am going to say no.

I tried to google, but, only things with water around them came up

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Hi t~n~c, thanks for your input in this and 'the other' thread.

As an adult 'beginner' owner I looked into many different techniques and horsemanship methods, I have attended demonstrations and have a lot of friends involved with Parelli.

Leaving 'problem horses' aside, I don't really understand a lot of the groundwork techniques with Parelli. If I want my horse to back up I will put a flat hand on his chest and say 'back'. Similarly I can turn him on the forehand or quarters or move him forwards. He will confidently lead anywhere, over anything.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't really understand the rope wiggling, 'carrot stick' waving and the games themselves. Most of the time you have to move the horse around he will be in a field, stable, tied up for grooming or tacked up for excercise. Generally not in a rope halter, with a handy carrot stick and long rope. What do you do? You move the horse around by putting a hand on it and saying over/back etc. Obviously there will be horses who find this difficult but from what I have seen the Parelli 'games' seem to confuse horses more than anything.

To progress through the levels you have to demonstrate you are doing everything the 'Parelli' way. It is not marketed as being able to pick and choose the bits you would use (I haven't found this with any of the other 'NH' trainers). It seems to be an all or nothing approach and I don't understand how this can be applied - blanket style - to all horses, when every horse has a different personality (horsenality??).

Sorry for the long rambling post but I haven't before had the opportunity to have my questions answered by someone like yourself, normally my enquiries are not welcomed by Parelli people.

Ok, lesson on phases and body language. phase one is the "easiest" phase 4 is "what ever is effective" 2-3 are the progression from 1-4. phase one is usually body language only, a finger wiggle, phase 2 wiggle rope from rope to what touches the ground, phase 3 wiggle rope just untill you see the halter move lightly, phase 4 is what ever it takes to get the horse to back up. IF you release the second the horse backs, no matter what phase you are at, the horse will QUICKLY learn to move back from a finger wiggle. IF you dont release, or IF you start at phase 2 or 3, your horse will get dull, and ignore the phase 1. horse know what happens, before what ever 'happens" actually happens. just like they know that if I go in the shed it means nothing, but if they hear a bag rustle while I am in there, lots of nickers for sure. because they know, bag rustles and minutes later I come out with buckets of goodies. if I rstled the bags everyday for say a week, with no goodies to follow, they will quickly start to ignore it.

generally speaking, most horses get it quickly, it is the human that makes it slow going. again, my students horse might take a week to perfect something or a month, but I can walk in and get him to do it the first time, maybe second. there are horses that are more difficult for sure, but generally speaking it isn't the games that confuse a horse, it is the human. I can now, teach a horse all 7 games in a session, provided we are not talking a difficult horse. I have taken a wild horse from wild thru all the levels on the ground in 8mos. and I would be willing to bet next time it will go faster. but speed is not my goal, confidence is. "I" take the time it takes, but I make mistakes too. who doesn't. sometimes a mistake will take me a week to recover from. depends on the faux pas.

of course you have to demonstrate pure parelli to progress "officially", it is his program. but, many would be surprised that alot of what they already do is natural. it is more the man/attitude/timing/feel than the technique that makes something natural. his program is for humans to learn attitude/timing/feel not how to train a horse. through the program, and techniques you learn those things. but "officially" it is how well you know the parelli techniques of course. there is no way for it to be another way.

horsenalities, is about the different types of horses. learning how to read the body language of the horse to determine thier 'type" so that you can then use the appropriate strategies that they give you for that kind of horse.

the very BASIC gist.
left brain extrovert(confident/energetic/naughty)= play with me
left brain introvert(confident/lazy/stubborn)=what is in it for me
right brain extrovert(unconfident/terrified/crazy/on crack)=focus me
right brain introvert(undonfident/quiet/unpredictable)=be gentle with me. (you can NEVER hit this horse, break his confidence in you and it could take a year to get it back)

I can be what looks like "horrific" with an LBI and he could CARE LESS, all he cares about=where my food
I barely whisper and my rbi comes out of his skin.

the wiggle wiggle whack whack looks totally different based on who I am playing with and what mood they are in.

My advice, you have parelli friends and are obviously not opposed to going to events or things with them. ask to borrow something. ask them questions, just don't start the question, or end it, with an opinion. they will be more open and less defensive, and more likely to give you an honest answer. then don't take offense to anything they say. likely they don't know how to explain it well enough not to make you defensive, and you already have history of "clashing". none of this means you have to like it or agree in the end, but at least you will have made a scientific informed descision, based on your OWN experiments, not someone elses.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Parelli is a circus sold to people who have over horsed themselves and have not bothered to learn to ride a horse properly or have even the basics of good stable management.

As an upper level dressage rider, eventer, hunter/jumper, who trained my horses myself prior to parelli, have run a breeding farm of over 100 head of horses at any given time, foaled out somwhere in the neighborhood of 60 foals myself, started horses for racing, worked with racing TB's, re-habed countless ex-racers, own my own farm, board, train and teach.
I would have to say this statement is somewhat inacurate.

but I do own a pair of dancing poodles

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Thanks for your most generous offer, tongue~n~cheek.

My questions are:

1) Is there really a strong tendency - as I have noticed - for Parelli students to assume that any problem behaviour that doesn't actually involve the horse running away indicates dominance? So, for example, Catwalk's evading the bridle being put on is dominant behaviour.

2) Why is that?

Thanks,
Francis

Many students at the moment feel compeled to defend pat. be it out of respect, admiration, devotion, loyalty: basically reasons run the gamut. I know that for some, there has to be a level of 'quotation" with out true understanding, so just keep that in mind. I have done it too, no on this one, but I did for Linda, and came to regret it. but that will be in another answer regarding her video. for this question, I would have to say no, but possibly. I know, what a crock huh? firstly because I do not know all of these people or thier individual level of understanding of either the man, a horse or the program.

I do know that dominant is not a primary word in our vocabulary. but generally speaking if a horse is unconfident/fearful safety and comfort is thier primary concern, not dominance games. they are in a fight/flight mode. on the other side, generally speaking a confident horse is not, and thus fun, games, relaxation and FOOD are what is on his mind. dominance can come in many forms. if you are someone who routinly braids manes, surely you have come across this once or twice. your horse moves ever so slightly and you adjust your feet acordingly to keep from dropping said braid and starting that one ever. that is a dominance game. it is a subtle one, but they take thier 'wins" where they can get them. a stuborn horse that plants his feet to say no to something, is a dominance game. I wish I could show you a clip of one of my videos with out losing my annonymity, but I had a horse once, not long ago, who would not let you touch one side of thier face. initially this behavior started out of fear for sure. i know it was not out of abuse, it was out of wildness. well the people who I got him from knew NOTHING about horses really, and over a LONG period of time this horse became very confident about the fact that he knew just how long thier arms were and just how far (not far btw) they were willing to push the issue, so pattie (we'll call this horse) was confident in the fact that she could keep you from doing it, thus not afraid at all in the approach, and her skill level was cunning. I got a hold of her and knew that this of course was not healty behavior and wanted to get it rectified as soon as possible. it took about 6 hrs from start to finish with patience and just my hands and rope around neck but not tied just draped, no pulling, wiggle nothing. pattie never tried to leave and never displayed any fearful behavior even when I finally got to touch the part I wanted, and all this to get the halter on, a first for pattie. I did not even bring the halter into the stall until i could touch her all over her face. then started again with halter, rubbing and releasing all over. had she displayed any fearful behavior I would have quit with being able to just touch with my hands, and left the halter for another day. her moving her head a thousand times was dominant behavior in the sense that she was the one in control of her face, not me. she was in control of the time line, and how far she would let me expand the "touchable" area. while I was in control of the session, she was in control of her face. it was a passive control, but I did nothing to so fast as to cause her to feel the need to take that dominance to the next level. I have a threshold my self for dominant horses, etreme ones like stallions and even some gelding, do not sit well with me, and I try not to work with them. I am uncomfortable, and I know they will know that instantly and will and many times in my past, take advantage of that. for ME, it is not safe to be around horses that are agressive out of confidence. there is also agression out of fear as well. if you take away a horses ability to "flight" they can resort to "fight". it may very well look the same. i have not dealt with a horse like catwalk (thier discription anyways) since my involvement with parelli.

now I have a mare, not the alpha, who is very dominant, nearly evil at times, and a sweet heart the next. I cannot just make her do things, but I cannot let her push me around either. it goes to her head, and she gets worse. she honestly respects the fact that i am on her level skill. if i am slow and stupid, she wont give me the time of day. if I am smarter than her (she is wicked smart) and somehow APPEAR more athletic and faster than her, she is all for playing with me, her ears prick forward, she gets very animated and stays by my side for ever. if I take it one step over the line, she she ignors me for a week. fickel mare for sure. everyday with her is a new adventure, a new learning experience, and like having a barn full of horses all wrapped up in one.

I would think, a man with the level of experience pat has can tell the difference between the two. what I am not sure of, is if this was caused by the fact that the all mighty pat couldn't get it done in a half hour, robert was looking for a quick fix, rather than take the time it takes to learn how to patiently do it himself (or grooms) and pat did not fail to deliver. had it all gone as acording to the status quo, I would not label it a quick fix. i know, odd that taking LESS time is not a quick fix. that, imo, is because if someone can fix it quickly, it wasn't bad, wasn't the horse, it was the human who had the problem. so the fact that pat couldn't do it in a half hour tells me this was a serious problem and IMO, he should have told robert it would take more time and quit then and there. while that might have been embarasing for them both, i think the current result is far more embarasing. he went against his own priciples of not acting like a predator, not using force, and my personal favorite. not going the extra mile for someone going the other direction. robert clearly has no desire to learn to be a better horseman on the GROUND, and looked for a quick fix, as I am sure this horse has a price tag he has to earn. if he respected pat so much, and thought this horse was that bad that it was beyond the scope of himself and his grooms, he should have trusted pats faith in his uk pnh trainers, and sent him there for a couple of weeks at the very least. but no. NO ONE, put this horses dignity first. they did not try other less intrusive methods for long enough, and resorted to something that should have been reserved for only when an HONEST effort in better methods for a period of time had failed them. i finally ranted about it. there!

i did watch the video clips, and they are very hard to see detail. I would have to say in my honest opinion, it really could be confident dominance or fearful fight or a mix of both or a progression from one to the other. there is less than 5 min footage of a 2+ hour session. so being fair and objective of what went on is on the forefront of my mind. do I think it is abuse. 'eh, it is definatley skirting and dancing on the fine line in that grey area, FOR ME. if you feel it was abuse, i am NOT here to change your mind. i was NOT there to see it for myself, and it is still a far cry from what this horse has been living with i am sure. I wish it didn't happen, i wish he quit sooner, I wish I wish I wish, disney has a song about those. fairy tales and dreams are where wishes live.

so gee, did i anser the question. is there a strong tendancy to call a horse that doesn't run away dominant. ok. from what you see yes. of the people who are compelled to defend pat, if that is what they are saying then yes, this group of people do. i have heard few of them think about the possibility of the 'fight" side of fear, especially in a stallion. in nature, if you show the other stallion your afraid, then you are either left for dead, or dn't get to procreate because the other one stole all your mares.

this doesn't account for those that have no desire to debate, defend or comment on the matter though

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

phase 2 wiggle rope from roPe to what touches the ground, phase 3 wiggle QUOTE]

this should read

phase 2 wiggle rope from HAND to what touches the ground,

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

I would say you're doing pretty well!

THANKS, i am exhaused, but it doesn't compare to spending the last 10 yrs trying to explain to my kid that wild pokemon dont roam the hills of japan, and WWE (wrestling) isn't real, up to and including a debate tonight!

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Well thats were you are totally wrong and misinformed, I was introduced to PNH by an experience ex owner of a BHS riding school, I myself are BHS trained and have 40+ years experience, and there are many like us, PNH can't chose its students, so if you have problems with some of their attitudes you can't blame the program for them.
The bottom line is this program works, it will not work for you if you are not looking for something better in your relationship with your horses and it won't work if you dont have an open mind to think outside the box, if you are happy in your box then thats OK but please don't knock others who want more.

Ouch! two flames only makes a fire. I feel your pain, I do, 10yrs and counting, but I prefer to fight fire with water.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Hmm, isn't Parelli Natural Horsemanship just another box to be happy inside? Indeed, the program is designed to be complete and self-contained, and - correct me if I'm wrong - students are actively discouraged from drawing on knowledge from other trainers. Of course, not all people who find Parelli useful follow that dictum; many pick and choose from a variety of sources, and that seems to work well for them too.

I guess I also find the suggestion that ditching everything to follow Parelli necessarily will lead to an improvement in the relationship with your horse a little disturbing. Doesn't that imply a superiority to everything else?

and three flames makes a wildfire

Doesn't that imply a superiority to everything else?

why yes

YES IT DOES

and since we are NOT, we shouldn't be implying we are.

for all interested there is 48 thousand acre wild fire on the other thread, that is only .03% contained.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Not sure how many of those comments are aimed at me but #1 There are many PNH students including myself who do look at all methods of working with horses, Participating in PNH does not require you to remove your brain in the process. #2 I have a life time of experiences to draw upon and I've not ditch them I have just enhanced them. For me life is a never ending learning curve, and if it suits me I don't care were I get my info from.
If anything I wrote came across as me thinking I am superior, then that was not my intention, on the contrary actually.

there we go

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

1) - friendly game. in the friendly game, you use the carrot stick to stroke the horse to give it a pleasurable feeling. when it stands still it is rewarded by you removing the stick stimulus.

I totally don't get that?! Surely if being stroked with a stick is so nice (which i can't see) then the removing it when they do the right thing is completely counter productive??!

2) "Using the friendly game, among others, the horse learns to stand still and trust the handler".

How is that the case? The horse is wearing a pressure halter (I know it's under another name, btu I've been repeatedly informed by Parelli people that you need it to do parelli as you don't get the same fine control in a normal headcollar, therefore it's basically working to create fine pressure and is therefore a pressure halter under another name), and the horse is learning that if it moves away from the carrot stick it gets pressure on its head. similarly when the friendly game is played with the rope flicking rather than the stroking stick, the horse stands becuase of the pressure on its head, not becuase it trusts its owner. maybe it learns the rope flicking is ok, but the initial thing that's happening is that it has to supress its fear, surely. otherwise you could play the games loose right form the start, if it really was trust. comments??

3) "using the moving away games (i think they're called the porcupine games among others) is typical of what mares do to teach their foals to move away from pressure."

I think that's really counter productive - cannot see how moving away is a 'game' for a horse and have certainly never seen a mare repeatedly asking ehr foal to move from left to right!!

4) Why does there have to be so much of the massively dominant movement of the hrose as in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYAn4IH918 - this is very typical of parelli clips,. i never want my hroses to ever move away from me that quickly - if you compare it to herd behaviour in a field, it is most reminiscent of a subservient horse running away from e.g. its human or the water trough when it sees a very dominant and agressive horse approaching. I don't want my horses to see me as very dominant and agressive, i want them to see me as someone i can trust.

comments??

5) Linda parelli in partiuclar, but all the others too, do an awful lot of jerking nastily on their horse's halters. why adn what on earth are they trying to achieve? I would completely freak out if i saw someone do that to my horse wiht a thin rope halter - their heads are so sensitive!

thank you!!

your welcome and thank YOU!

1) i don't get it either. it is not what they teach, as this person has written it. you rub them to get them not afraid of it, and it BECOMES a pleasureble feeling. could be typo, I can assure you, writing isn't all it is cracked up to be!

2) yes, in it's broadest sense of the word it is a pressure halter. but not a cruel halter. it is soft, and if not used as a weapon, gentle. for the most part, at least how I do it and understand it to be done by what they teach. the friendly is about applying said scary object and not removing said object until the horse shows acceptance. at first that acceptance may be a split second hesitation. if you reward that, the next will be a second or two of standing, if you reward that, it becomes 4 second and so on, until the horse fully accepts it will not hurt them, and stands still unconditionally. as taught, yanking on the halter is not part of the equation unless the horses behavior is a danger to you or him self, AND they are not listening to preasure aplied to halter more gently. basically the halter is used only to keep the horse from leaving (isn't that the purpose of a halter anyways) (halt-her)
friendly is called sacking out or desensitizing. it's purpose is to teach the horse that "things" will not hurt him, and that YOU will not hurt him with 'things". it's practical uses are endless. blanketing, trailering, doctoring and so forth. I and many others DO play friendly at liberty, quite often from the start. depends on the horse, the environment and the handlers skill level.

3) the 'moving" games= porcupine(touch) and driving (suggestion no touch) are used by all horses with each other, the mother is just the first to do it. I have seen horses be relentless with each other, but relatively harmless. and others attack for what appears no apparent reason, and do some serious damage. my horses are covered with bite marks and kick scuffs. so far no serious damage in all these years. actually had more vet bills when everyone was in stalls. these games simulate your leg aids, teach a horse to stay off of you or move when you ask by body language and touch. every horse I have started under saddle, was able to do turns on the forhand and haunces on the first ride. quite lightly too i might add. it was very pleasing to me as a trainer to have this be this nice on the first day, rather than what it took years before my old way.

4) this video is old, and i don't like it either. I commented on it in another answer.

5) my question is, if is a strong pressure and thier heads so sensitive, wouldnt you think they would give to it sooner? I used to think so. you would be surprised. some horses don't care, others freak out. basically, before i would ask a horse to "stop" via the pressure of halter after a friendly game, i would teach it using the phases starting lightly to give to the halter. you can't do anything with a horse if it wont stand still or follow you. ie; stop and go. so before I would put pressure on a horse that could cause him to leave, he first needs to stay with me, with no pressure.

remember, its not the halter, its not the program, its the person on the end of the rope. not ALL of us do that. the linda video is only a small portion, very small, of the program and only in situations that become dangerous for anyone one involved. and only if nothing else works.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

I have only a few friends who are really into Parelli/natural horsemanship so I don't know if this is representative of Parelli or not. My question is - why is there no verbal communication with the horse? Maybe its just me being a chatty person but I find voice commands very useful, particularly when progressing something taught inhand to being taught under saddle under saddle - e.g teaching a youngster the command for trot on the lunge verbally can then be effectively used when asking for trot under saddle.

for just that reason. humans are a vocal species, horses are not. those of us that are chatty, or at least WELL trained in voice commands, as i was. if we don't learn to be quiet, we have a hard time using our bodies, or learning to use them. we accidently (i did) fall back on voice commands. i would say that they talk about reintroducing it once you are about level 3. when you have a firm grasp of your other tools, you are ready to add it back into your vocabulary. IF you are concerned with NH. there is nothing wrong with vioce commands other than it is not within the nature of the horse. if you are learning to be like them, then you need to be like them. as much as "humanly" possible. it was once argued by me, for years, that horses don't saddle each other and go for a ride on each other, so how is being with horses natural at all. at honestly i was just using it as a digg to nh'rs. i used to anti-natural myself, and I could put any current bashers to shame in a nano second. heck I practically invented nh bashing. so I truley understand where anyone who feels that way is coming from. i have been on both sides and know them both well.

anyways, yes a verbal command on the ground is easily transfered to saddle. but parelli is about teaching humans, it is not saying voice commands are bad, just that you need to put that tool in the barn long enough to learn the others.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

The thing I don't understand about Parelli is it's purpose... I've seen it used on 'problem' horses with no effect, and people who do Parelli don't seem to be in the same league, competition wise, as the traditional trainers... So it's not really about the riding, is it about having a polite horse?

I think i may have answered this well in another answer, so if not let me know.

it is about learing the nature of horses. it is a large vocabulary. level one is abc's, level 2 forming words, level 3 sentences, and level 4 having conversations with your horse. to be able to ask your horse to do something from 200ft away is a magical feeling. for them to look at you and say "this? put my foot on this?" is cool beyond all belief.

in the end, honestly, there should be no discernable difference between your horse and mine. just another way to get there. so yes, polite is a good goal, but we prefer to have a little more dialogue with our horses. not that anyone else doesn't.

lots of people don't have a desire to compete. this is fun and challenging way to spend time with your horse, but still have a goal in sight.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Don't think this is Just a Parelli thing. My horse is with a Western trainer who uses a mixed bag of NH and common sense and he only uses verbal communication to either chastise "ehhhh" or praise "oh good so Vardi Man".

Like you I am a very chatty person and have made a conscious effort in the last few months to shut up a bit! and to be honest Vardi does seem to be responding to me a lot better when I am working him if I am quiet and when he does something well just give him the "good so Vardi Man" you actually feel him swell with pride beneath you....strange.

in the end, at the end, it is up to each person whether to use or not use, and no it isn't exclusive to NH

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Ok, so the O'Connor's are well known for being advocates of the Parelli movement. This is a video from their eventing camp. The clip obviously and repeatedly hits the horse - and there is no way the guy has a shoulder injury!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqy7sSK0Y4c

This is the most recent example I have seen, many, many other videos exist which I am happy to spend the time finding if you can explain to me why this video reflects what I have consistently seen rather than what you describe above. This video reinforces my opinion of this being an unfair way of asking due to the equipment being used rather than the methodology, and I do not understand why a better way of fixing the rope to the halter has not been found if the purpose is getting the horse to back off using a moving rope rather than using the negative reinforcement of being hit round the head with a metal clip.

If the answer is 'they're doing it wrong' (which I accept could well be the case), why doesn't Parelli market gear where it doesn't matter if the handler gets it wrong - after all we've already established that many people who get into this are novices!

ETA: Many thanks for taking the time to do this - I'm not being deliberately difficult, just struggle to see why the chosen equipment is being used - the methodology is fine by me when it doesn't involve belting something round the head with a metal clip when it hasn't done anything wrong - it was stood still, a lot of the time we want the horse to stand still!

WRONG WRONG WRONG! if this is you (not spotted cat) you are doing WRONG!

WTH! Ok. first of all, I think that is david in the begining,
'hello david where is phase 1-2 & 3?" not only was he not using the phases, he was TEACHING to not use phases. he has a great neutral. if you notice this horse, while respecting and backing, was getting more DULL not lighter. this is used like this when the horse is CROWDING, which he wasn't, otherwise PHASE 1-2-3 FIRST. right from the get go. when the student took back over the horse crowed him, and ok, g'head. the student was actually using lighter phases, BUT didn't release when the horse responded. that is why this horse got irritated. first david did not give him a chance to respond at a lighter phase, then the student didn't recognise the try at a lighter phase. i would be irritated too! while the oconnors were affiliated, and still may be, in a way with parelli, this is NOT what parelli teaches. while some may do this, they are doing it wrong. so if this is what you look like playing the yo-yo, read up on phase ONE and rewarding the TRY.

as for the clip hitting, yes it does hit the horse a few times, but it isn't reapeated. it looks like it it hitting, but is just swinging round. honestly, if you really want to know if it does hit the horse you just have to try for your self. i am not saying it doesn't, i am saying it takes alot of effort, to get that clip to hit a horse repeatedly. ALOT. and skill to do it just once when YOU want to.

and the snap is there for if you ever need the effectiveness. they are designed to no actually not be hitting the horse repeatedly.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

thank you all for your kudo's, really, thank you.
thank you to the other parelli contributers.
dialogue, not war. i love it.
i hope you all know, I don't expect you to agree with me. just see it for what it is. if you stil hate it, me, pat, i respect your descision


nighty night, catch you on the flip side

 

[eahotson]

You might actually (if you have the time) go to the tag ends of the other Parelli posts.There is beginningto be SOME acceptance by both traditionalists and the Parelli camp that at least if we can't agree ,we can disagree peacefully.That not all practitioners of Parelli are slavish to Pat and Linda and that we all want the same in the end, to do the best by our horses.
This dominance issue.Don't we all dominate our horses to some degree.You may want your horse to go in a trailer so you can go to a show.Most of us try and do this kindly.Showing the horse that there is nothing to be afraid of and driving consideratly.HOWEVER at the end of the day, you require him to go in the trailer.You are not really giving him a choice.
I have lost count of how many trads say For sure I give him a whack if he misbehaves.Whats that but dominance really.We do itwith dogs, cats children anyone we feel resposible for.We give them some degree of freedom.I always think of my horses field time as HIS time and as far as possible his box as HIS home.When I take him out to ride that is MY time.The price he pays for the lovely lifestyle he has generally.
You need to be able to say NO to children for many reasons, not least there personal safety.To the 3 year old NO you may not cross that busy road on your own.
When out on a hack you need to be able to say to your horse NO you may not turn round and bolt for home simply because you don't like the look of that lorry.Its simply not safe either for you or him.
There is a check and balance to all of this.Over dominance becomes bullying which is what I PERSONALLY (And I accept that other people may not agree) happened to Pat at that demo.
I would also question Roberts role in all of this.MANY REASONS.One is though.Its stated by someone on the other post that his friend practises Parelli and he wanted to give it a shot with Catwalk but that he didn't stay for the demo.Well if I wanted to try Parelli methods I would have made sure I stayed for the demo.It doesn't make sense otherwise and I quite agree with the OP it certainly does seem that Robert has no interest at all in any form of ground work.

 

[Orangehorse]

TnC I think you have given some excellent, thoughtful answers to the questions, well done.

I haven't got involved with Parelli as I doubt my ability as a trainer, and I thought that there was too much to go wrong if "done at home" without supervision of an experienced trainer. But I know people who have had terrific success with previously difficult horses, and the horses canter towards their owners in greeting when they see them.

I think we are all in agreement that the Catwalk demo went seriously wrong.

 

[eahotson]

P.S TIC.Think the mellowing is maybe due to this post.

 

[drover]

Hi tounge in cheek,

I am interested to hear your thoughts on the lowering of standards in the parelli world in a huge way with levels and the fact that it is so so easy to become an instructor.

10 years ago the quality of the instructors was very high but now anybody with money can get endorsed regardless of knowledge, skills or experience.

I have been in this side of the industry for over 20 years and the parelli thing started great but in particular over the last few years the materials taught and quality of instructors has dropped in a big way.

I learned from some the great horsemen that pat learned from and originally pat was doing a pretty good job of passing on that knowledge(although expensive) but know its incredibly watered down it seems just to make more money from selling heaps more dvds.

I know from my many friends world wide that are still involved with parelli that some of the new instructors have not even completed and passed the new level 2 system and are out there teaching and charging for 'online' instruction.

As my teacher R.H. would have said it should be quality and not quantity you offer (he was refering to the horse but it really refers to most things)

 

[teddyt]

Apologies first that i havnt read all of this thread so if this has been asked and answered then please point me in the right direction.

The whole 'keep it natural' thing.... What exactly is natural about the methods used by PP at that demonstration? The excuse i have read is people dont understand what they saw but he was there to teach people- so does that men he wasnt doing a very good job at teaching?

I have also read that extreme horses need extreme techniques. From several videos that stallion didnt look very extreme to me- way off the dangerous and was going to be shot until saved by PP view that i have also read. And even if he was extreme- why those techniques? Its not natural or empathetic.

To me it was a man with an ego trying to prove he could do a miracle cure of a problem. And it went wrong. What place do those techniques have in a natural training method?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyF2QqP29DU

Another question- how is this natural? LP is leaning back to put more and more force into that rope. The horse is totally confused. What is she trying to achieve? The horses head is being bruised and yanked continually in her efforts.

 

[pippinpie]

Well thats were you are totally wrong and misinformed, I was introduced to PNH by an experience ex owner of a BHS riding school, I myself are BHS trained and have 40+ years experience, and there are many like us, PNH can't chose its students, so if you have problems with some of their attitudes you can't blame the program for them.
The bottom line is this program works, it will not work for you if you are not looking for something better in your relationship with your horses and it won't work if you dont have an open mind to think outside the box, if you are happy in your box then thats OK but please don't knock others who want more.

Ouch! two flames only makes a fire. I feel your pain, I do, 10yrs and counting, but I prefer to fight fire with water.

I find that very patronising TL, I gave straight facts, why is that so wrong? It certainly was not inflammatory or was not intended to be, but some times other people make statement that are just not right, I have the right to say what the real facts are and I thought I did that in a mannerly way.

 

[rhino]

t~n~c thank you for your reply, you have answered many questions on this thread that other people have been unwilling or unable to answer before.

I understand a lot of the reasoning you have given and perhaps if I had a problem horse I would be even more aware. Luckily I have a horse with near perfect manners.

Although you have dashed my dream of travelling to see wild pokemon in their natural habitat..

 

[Bay_Beasty]

t~n~c thank you for your reply, you have answered many questions on this thread that other people have been unwilling or unable to answer before.

I understand a lot of the reasoning you have given and perhaps if I had a problem horse I would be even more aware. Luckily I have a horse with near perfect manners.

Although you have dashed my dream of travelling to see wild pokemon in their natural habitat..

Mine tooo and I so badly wanted my own Pikachu......sad, sad times......