barefoot, I am getting seriously worried.

[Tiddlypom]

I’m now even more puzzled. The trimmer I used was a full member of the EPA for years. He was qualified and registered when I used him. I’ve seen him on the full members list recently. But now he’s no longer on it, although his business page states that he is indeed a member .

So what’s going on?

It’s not THE body for professional trimmers in U.K. It’s one option, are other U.K. professional bodies too.

EPs are one barefoot flavour.

What other professional registered/trained/insured qualifications for trimmers are out there?

 

[tristars]

Definitely all should be reviewed through feedback from victims, oops sorry, from customers

Perhaps a form to complete along with photos and observations for clients to send in, it could be a way of following through on remedial practices
evidence when horses are ruined but mainly to shake the thing up from it's current lethargic stagnation, the apathy towards bad practice and lack of ongoing supervision by governing bodies

 

[Miss_Millie]

Just in the interests of balance, and before thread morphs in to bashing all trimmers, I've had 3 different trimmers over the years and they've all been brilliant.

They've all been nice people to have around, offered lots of useful, sound advice. Never been bossy or bullying. Always arrive on time, book the next appointment before they leave etc.

It's just always been a pleasant experience unlike my experiences with farriers(one was always drunk and had to employ someone to drive him to appointments as he'd lost his licence, another who was completely silent and never spoke a word to me the whole time he was there and if I spoke to him he just grunted, plus the one who caused mechanical laminitis by leaving my pony's toes too long)

I've never had any issues with any of my ponies feet while under the care of trimmers, and they have almost all been in work over that time.

I'm certainly not evangelical about it, and if any had needed shoes, they would have had them. Although I will say that the local farriers here sound like absolute tyrants. My poor friend feels sick every time her farrier is due.

I'm really sorry for those that have poor experiences with trimmers, but bad experiences with a farrier doesn't mean all farriers are bad, and neither does one bad trimmer = all equine podiatry is evil.

If the likes of HM and the evangelical cultishness around them is pushing people to associate all barefoot trimmers with that level of bonkers, then that's a real shame, not just for owners, but for the decent trimmers out there that work hard to make sure they provide the best possible service they can by regularly taking extra courses after qualifying etc.

Personally I think both farriers and trimmers ought to be under closer scrutiny.

I have also used several EPs over the years and they have only ever been excellent and pleasant people as well. The only bad experience I have ever had was with a farrier, but I know that there are plenty of great farriers too. I think this thread just goes to show that you can't tar everyone with the same brush, but like you say the more extreme people are also the loudest and they reflect badly on the community as a whole.

 

[slimjim86]

My girl is barefoot and kept on a track system ( all be it one of our own making at a standard DIY yard) she is trimmed by a farrier as a) I've never seen a reason to change and b) every hoof I've seen done by an EP / barefoot trimmer has had ridiculous long toes. I do need to keep reminding my farrier that the vet says she needs slightly shorter toes and higher heals on the back due to suspensory and stifle problems.
I once moved her to a natural horsemanship barefoot livery (panic response to the weight she had gained at previous yard) where the owner was a barefoot trimmer and we were talking as I led her down to her track and it was obvious that the woman "was trying to convert me", the level of disappointment from her when she picked up my girls feet and couldn't find anything wrong with them was funny but also reassuring that there was at least 1 trimmer in the area that wasn't obsessed with long toes and no heals.

 

[tristars]

If a horse has toes like the Hinton photo, what actual
work would they be expecting it to do, or competing how can a horse perform
Like that

 

[FieldOrnaments]

in the Phoenix Way/HM group they are trying to get the admins nominated for H&H awards

 

[FieldOrnaments]

I zm almost tempted to contact H&H with screenshots of what they encourage people to do to hooves/let their horses hooves become

Sorry I know this is a bit hypocritical considering i said we need to be careful about naming practitioners but the damage it must be doing elsewhere in the animals' bodies surely qualifies as neglect

 

[TigerTail]

I've just popped on wondering if anyone can recommed a good trimmer in E Yorks as mt current one is so unreliable its now becoming a welfare issue (+ doing my head in!) and read this thread - yikes I thought we'd moved past the cuckoo cloud post Strasseur.



I am v wary of DAEPs having had a bad one try to make tiny lampshades out of both my horses feet despite them being totally different sized/ types of animals. Now I am wondering what qualifications to even look for/ trust? Any help please !!!!

 

[rabatsa]

Depends where in E Yorkshire. I can recommend my farrier, who reckons that 80% of his clients are barefoot. He lives at Fridaythorpe.

 

[missymoo29]

It's in their group rules (just had a quick look) that debate or challenge is unwelcome:

Trimming Advice:
This group is run by Hoofing Marvellous promoting The Phoenix Way, therefore any trimming advice not in line with this will be removed to stop any confusion for owners seeking help. If in doubt don't give advice, there are plenty of professionals and students in the group to help.

This is exactly the same as what happens on other barefoot, EMS groups, CPL or laminitis groups, nothing unusual there

 

[Surbie]

This is exactly the same as what happens on other barefoot, EMS groups, CPL or laminitis groups, nothing unusual there

I don't agree - it's rare that a group is so strident about one specific way to trim that all other opinions are deleted. Or maybe I have given those particular groups a swerve.

 

[Miss_Millie]

This is exactly the same as what happens on other barefoot, EMS groups, CPL or laminitis groups, nothing unusual there

That isn't true at all.

 

[Fransurrey]

It was the equine podiatry association.

So I was wrong in my description he's not a trimmer but a podiatrist.



Thank you Everyone - it was horrendous at the time and bringing it back up is horrible but people do need to know what these 'crazies' are like.

I just had a quick look at the register and there is one person on there that fits that sort of psyche. He was on two of my courses and rather full of himself.

What other professional registered/trained/insured qualifications for trimmers are out there?

Just a note here that anyone can get insurance for trimming, qualified or not. When I was studying to be an EP (before I dropped out), I was asked to take on clients and so went into my local NFU to ask about PL Insurance. Got a quote there and then, even though I stressed I wasn't qualified! That was 2005, so may have changed.

 

[Apizz2019]

A little late to the party here but...

After a bad experience with a farrier, I looked at barefoot trimmers and happened upon one of the groups mentioned.

After a glowing recommendation from one of the leaders of a group/org, I duly booked a trimmer. Coincidentally, another livery at the yard we were then on had also booked this trimmer for their horse, who was in remedial shoes for severe navicular, as she had decided barefoot would be the best way to proceed as shoes didn't appear to be helping.

The trimmer arrived, lovely chap, appeared knowledgeable... but then proceeded to butcher our ponies feet, while repeating over and over again 'mustang roll'. It was a surreal moment as I watched but my brain couldn't process what he was doing. My mind was screaming, no, but the words didn't leave my mouth.

He finished the first foot and it was horrendous. Heel taken down way too low, hacked off almost, toe long, sole paired away beyond anything I've ever seen before. Finally the words left my mouth and I asked him politely to stop and just rasp the other feet to give them a tidy up.

Thankfully, the damage wasn't too severe but it did take a while for the hoof to grow back to what it was. I've no doubt, had he have done all four feet in the manner he'd done the first, we would have had a crippled horse.

The other liveries horse wasn't so lucky. The owner had been sucked in to the following and hung off their every word.
I felt for the other livery as their intentions were well meaning but, I won't lie, it was to the detriment of their horse. That story, sadly, didn't end well, but I can't say categorically if the barefoot movement hastened the end of their horses life. I'm quite sure it didn't help as the horse was crippled and in pain, more so than before.

I'm sure these methods work for some horses, maybe those that are rehabbing, but 5 years on from my experience, I'm staggered that there aren't more horror stories. Or maybe there are and people are too scared to talk about them.

I'm open to learning, and I don't think vets and farriers know it all but I'd rather rely on qualified, trained, professionals than any of these people.

Sadly, when people feel they have explored all avenues, they look for that glimmer of hope and get sucked into things such as this.

One thing that is now very telling to me, from what I see online, is these people will argue to the end of the earth with professionals, such as vets, and will shut down anyone not conforming to what they believe. I didn't see it then though and almost got sucked in.

I would like to add that there are some brilliant barefoot trimmers out there, not all are bad, just as there are good and bad farriers.

 

[Landcruiser]

I'm open to learning, and I don't think vets and farriers know it all but I'd rather rely on qualified, trained, professionals than any of these people.

Sadly, when people feel they have explored all avenues, they look for that glimmer of hope and get sucked into things such as this.

One thing that is now very telling to me, from what I see online, is these people will argue to the end of the earth with professionals, such as vets, and will shut down anyone not conforming to what they believe. I didn't see it then though and almost got sucked in.

I would like to add that there are some brilliant barefoot trimmers out there, not all are bad, just as there are good and bad farriers.

Just to say, vets have very little training on hooves and until recently (IME) often advised shoeing if horses appeared a bit footy barefoot. My vets humoured my horses being barefoot for years, but the proof of the pudding has been in the eating.
I think they see more barefoot ridden horses these days and I'm sure they gain experience that way - but they are not hoofcare professionals and they still (again IME) don't seem to connect the management and feeding of the horse with the hoof health and pathology in the way that a good barefoot trimmer or farrier should. A decent farrier/trimmer can trim a hoof and keep it sound - a good one helps address the hoof health in relation to the whole horse. When has your vet or farrier ever asked in detail about the diet of the horse, or pointed out the effects of wormers or antibiotics or infections on the hooves, or seasonal changes or ongoing medical issues? A good hoofcare pro SHOULD do all of this, as should a vet, but we are a long way from that, which is why it's so very important to self educate rather than just rely on a professional - who may be brilliant or may, certainly in the case of some trimmers and farriers, be a total numpty or worse.

 

[ester]

Any HCP that does much more than taking the shoes off at a first appointment is a red flag. Taking sole off even more so.

 

[Apizz2019]

Just to say, vets have very little training on hooves and until recently (IME) often advised shoeing if horses appeared a bit footy barefoot. My vets humoured my horses being barefoot for years, but the proof of the pudding has been in the eating.
I think they see more barefoot ridden horses these days and I'm sure they gain experience that way - but they are not hoofcare professionals and they still (again IME) don't seem to connect the management and feeding of the horse with the hoof health and pathology in the way that a good barefoot trimmer or farrier should. A decent farrier/trimmer can trim a hoof and keep it sound - a good one helps address the hoof health in relation to the whole horse. When has your vet or farrier ever asked in detail about the diet of the horse, or pointed out the effects of wormers or antibiotics or infections on the hooves, or seasonal changes or ongoing medical issues? A good hoofcare pro SHOULD do all of this, as should a vet, but we are a long way from that, which is why it's so very important to self educate rather than just rely on a professional - who may be brilliant or may, certainly in the case of some trimmers and farriers, be a total numpty or worse.

I must be lucky as I've had brilliant vets and our current farrier is brilliant too, both of whom have asked and shown interest in the actual horse as a whole, not just the feet.

I do think we're a long way off from where we need to be, in a lot of areas relating to horse care in general, and educating yourself is especially important too.

I will caveat this though with learning from the right sources as it's very easy to go down rabbit holes with lots of misinformation.

 

[Fieldlife]

Any HCP that does much more than taking the shoes off at a first appointment is a red flag. Taking sole off even more so.

100%

 

[paddy555]

I tried to copy these pics but they were too large. Hopefully someone else can.

on the first link I thought it was interesting seeing the new hoof growth come down, pretty perfectly, with the toe chopped.

On the second the toe is left. They are not totally comparable feet but hopefully illustrate the point that you don't need to leave the toe. Treating it conventionally ie "chopping" it appears to work.

I thought they were interesting as I have always found that leaving the toe "blocks" growth.

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[Peglo]

 

[paddy555]

View attachment 146963View attachment 146964

thank you. Wish I was that clever

 

[Peglo]

thank you. Wish I was that clever

I was hoping that was the right ones.

I presume if you’re keeping the toe long it’s not just a matter of letting the hoof grow but trimming the side of the hoof to go forwards or something?

I have no idea where HM found that hoof at. I’ve never seen anything like it.

 

[Red-1]

Crikey, I read these stories in horror.

I have had 5 horses working barefoot, including competing and hacking. I have used my trusted farrier and a trusted trimmer, but mainly do the lot myself now I know the basics, that they showed me. They both showed me slightly differently, and I took the best from both.

I have told my boyfriend what is required and he has developed it further, with an angle grinder making the job easier. I keep it simple, to take the edge off, not to take much off the heels, just level them up if they get unbalanced. I don't take sole off unless it is shedding already and yes, I may widen the cleft in the frog if it gets too narrow, but otherwise leave the frog alone.

Both my current horses had compromised feet when I took them barefoot, one had rotation from lami, the other had broken-up feet from when the weather was over 40 degrees for a week.

They hack out for hours, one does XC and affiliated BS.

I think the whole guru thing makes people afraid to pick up a rasp and do a simple trim. No, my trims may or may not be as 'perfect' as a good farrier or trimmer, but then, I do it twice a week. I reckon an approximate but OK trim done twice a week is healthier than a 6 week cycle, where the hoof gradually gets out of shape then is suddenly rightened.

That is one way I 'test' a trimmer - will they teach me what they are doing? If they are truly passionate about horse care and want to work with me, then they will.

All current 8 hooves look fabulous. Yes, one inside of a hind has a flare, but it lands flat. I think the proof of the pudding is in a 3 hour hack on all surfaces, including hard core - with no issues. Sometimes the fronts on one get high on the inside, sometimes I'm not quick at picking it up, but I do look and correct it, and being as it is done twice a week, it isn't disastrous.

I would say, pick up the rasp, under tuition to start with. Make changes slowly. Have a hoof friendly diet and regulate work.

 

[Landcruiser]

I have to agree with Red re trim regularity. I trim my three as and when they need, which for my mare (who is growing out some awful separation/flare caused by a nasty persistent infected mud fever last winter and spring) is currently every few days. If I left it longer the leverage would do further damage, and 6 weeks untrimmed would badly compromise her at this stage.

For my retired horse it's every 2-3 weeks, and my 2 yr old foster cob probably about the same. I could do it more often and take off less each time, but life tends to get in the way. As it is, I can do the whole horse in about 10 mins and not leave much in the way of hoof shavings on the floor. Both sound and rock crunching.

It really isn't that hard to do a basic trim on a decent hoof, as long as you have a good idea of what a healthy hoof should look like and where the structures are.

 

[ester]

Frank was every 2 weeks in work, it's how I started trimming him myself because it became apparent he could do with some straightening up mid cycle. I'd also moved further away from trimmer so although she was happy to come it was a long trek. The only reason I could do that was because she'd always told me what she was doing and why, there's a few things we tried that should in theory have improved things but just didn't for him. When I did move him it was a lot more stony and she even came for a hack to see how he was

 

[Hoofstudies]

that is the real danger and problem. There are so many posts either challenging or professionals asking questions that are removed so novices don't see them. Yesterday dozens were removed on several threads. So the novices (not being rude to them here) don't see this sort of stuff and life is perfect to them.

The other problem is that they lie and they only post the good. With any method things go wrong and sometimes the problems are not solved by a particular trim. That is life. So really you should see the success and the failure to understand a method. The failure isn't bad, it just hasn't worked and needs a rethink.
That doesn't happen so people see only success stories.
The lies by these cults are a nightmare. For several years we were reading of Strasser trimmed horses, one trimmed by S herself doing many endurance miles. Once someone stood up and told the whole story it was a complete lie. We had a trimmer in the UK who boasted of the miles she did. Her fieldmate later told me it had been lies.

Unfortunately novices believe what they read as they only see positive posts.
The more people challenge HM then the ruder HM get and that means their followers dig in even further to protect their leader against all these nasty vets, farriers and decent trimmers.

The other problem will be those who have tried the HM method and for whom it has failed and if they are trimming their own rotated horses based on online instructions that is going to happen. They then become too scared to say anything or ask for help. They just say they are too ashamed at what they have done to their horse.

So pleased to see this being discussed.
I’ve kept my head down for months but I see this is getting out of control…
I really despair for horse owners wanting help.

 

[splashgirl45]

So how do they explain that wild horses don’t have long toes, they naturally wear their feet down if they have free range over all surfaces … I’ve not come across them before and they do sound convincing to the lay person which is scarey for the well being of the horses

 

[FieldOrnaments]

the latest post on the HM group is absolutely shocking. poor horse/s

 

[Sanversera]

Crikey, I read these stories in horror.

I have had 5 horses working barefoot, including competing and hacking. I have used my trusted farrier and a trusted trimmer, but mainly do the lot myself now I know the basics, that they showed me. They both showed me slightly differently, and I took the best from both.

I have told my boyfriend what is required and he has developed it further, with an angle grinder making the job easier. I keep it simple, to take the edge off, not to take much off the heels, just level them up if they get unbalanced. I don't take sole off unless it is shedding already and yes, I may widen the cleft in the frog if it gets too narrow, but otherwise leave the frog alone.

Both my current horses had compromised feet when I took them barefoot, one had rotation from lami, the other had broken-up feet from when the weather was over 40 degrees for a week.

They hack out for hours, one does XC and affiliated BS.

I think the whole guru thing makes people afraid to pick up a rasp and do a simple trim. No, my trims may or may not be as 'perfect' as a good farrier or trimmer, but then, I do it twice a week. I reckon an approximate but OK trim done twice a week is healthier than a 6 week cycle, where the hoof gradually gets out of shape then is suddenly rightened.

That is one way I 'test' a trimmer - will they teach me what they are doing? If they are truly passionate about horse care and want to work with me, then they will.

All current 8 hooves look fabulous. Yes, one inside of a hind has a flare, but it lands flat. I think the proof of the pudding is in a 3 hour hack on all surfaces, including hard core - with no issues. Sometimes the fronts on one get high on the inside, sometimes I'm not quick at picking it up, but I do look and correct it, and being as it is done twice a week, it isn't disastrous.

I would say, pick up the rasp, under tuition to start with. Make changes slowly. Have a hoof friendly diet and regulate work.

Great post

 

[Exasperated]

If this is so like the Strasser method, now banned here, have any posters actually reported ‘Hoofing Marvellous’ to BEVA or Farriers’ Council yet? Raised so much as a formal red flag?
Sorry, can’t be bothered to even read that sort of mania, but sounds pernicious stuff, so surely taking positive action would be a better way to save gullible owners / at risk horses, than preaching to the converted on here?
Cannot understand anyone writing that they want to, but daren’t, speak out in case they are ‘banned’ - who cares if dangerously-misguided headcases won’t talk to you - just dob them in to appropriate authorities, ASAP!