barefoot, I am getting seriously worried.

[Tiddlypom]

Crikey, dorsetladette, that’s terrible. I’m so sorry for what you and your horse went through .

 

[tristars]

I started to trim my own as I was just not happy with with my super highly qualified farriers work

I picked up a rasp and followed nature and trimmed and shaped how I wanted the feet to look good, nothing difficult about it, absolutely
fascinating I could study horses hooves all day, I get lost in the trimming experience

I really do think cults make a big deal out of a thing where people feel lost , trouble is here the horses are suffering

A Lot of farriers leave the toe too long and use shoes too small

Any trimming needs a long term strategy combining nutrition and observation of the moving horse where the trimming success will be proven by how the whole horse carries itself and how its hooves land, incredible Improvement can be achieved without radical initial intervention, it's amazing sometimes how little needs to be taken off but always in the right place




,

 

[FieldOrnaments]

DL, thank you then and now for speaking out, openness about both good and bad experiences with professionals allows owners to make informed choices about who and what they use on their animals. I am so sorry for the troubles you and B went through.

I will say it does concern me how much of these bf trimming schools seem to train predominantly on cadaver hooves rather than live animals and via online 'lessons' rather than hands-on.

 

[tristars]

Er yes, only live horses can show the true results of trimming

 

[ester]

Without looking deeply into it most if the uk horse population seems to need more heel not less

 

[tristars]

I know for a fact that some farriery schools train for low heels

 

[dorsetladette]

I know for a fact that some farriery schools train for low heels

Are you talking about just the UK? surely they are all regulated by the farriery registration council.

 

[tristars]

The two I know are outside the UK, the low heels are taught by the trainers, but a lot of UK farriers seem to trim low

 

[dorsetladette]

The two I know are outside the UK, the low heels are taught by the trainers, but a lot of UK farriers seem to trim low

OK - that makes more sense.

My old stallion (even when he was young) didn't tolerate his heels being taken down. So I always had a conversation with any farrier before his trim - even if it was a regular one. It became a mantra - remember to leave him plenty of heel!

It takes a long time and a lot of effort to find a farrier that works for both you and your horses. Once you have one you should treat them like gods and hold on to them for dear life! I've been fortunate enough in my time to find 2 good ones. The first one helped save B's life along with my amazing vet at the time. He moved to Australia - and refused to come back every 6 weeks to trim my 3 (yes I did ask) it then took a really long time of making the best of mediocre farriery until my current one moved to the area and updated his registration details on the farriers council list. I was one of his first customers and he has become a good friend along the way. As far as I'm concerned he should wear his pants on the outside of his trousers! (super hero material!)

 

[Landcruiser]

Garry Hinton

5️⃣ reasons why we always leave the toe (inner hoof wall) on the ground…. ✅ FEEDBACK - The horn tubules relay messages of stimulation to the papillae, which are located in the sockets of the...

www.facebook.com

 

[tda]

Garry Hinton

5️⃣ reasons why we always leave the toe (inner hoof wall) on the ground…. ✅ FEEDBACK - The horn tubules relay messages of stimulation to the papillae, which are located in the sockets of the...

www.facebook.com

Ok now I'm really confused. I understand the reasoning for a variant of this trim on laminitic hooves, but is he really saying this is how all unshod hooves should look??!

 

[paddy555]

Ok now I'm really confused. I understand the reasoning for a variant of this trim on laminitic hooves, but is he really saying this is how all unshod hooves should look??!

I don't know. I am totally lost, they seem to go from one thing to another . I'm not sure how their followers can begin to understand.

I see where they are going for laminitic hooves. Don't agree but then neither do most people as for normal feet then isn't the toe ie inner hoof wall on the ground with a normal trim?
If you trim say level with the sole at the toe then angle at 45% the outer wall and then roll around the edge the inner wall is surely on the ground isn't it?

 

[paddy555]

This was over a decade ago. The guy is still trading as a trimmer and still has a strong following locally, but no one who actually rides their horses. From memory he attended less than 10 training sessions working on deceased horses feet and then became qualified. he worked in IT previously.

Sorry if this is garbled, it was a very upsetting time and reliving it isn't pleasant.

I'm sorry you had such a terrible time DL.
Are you willing to say which group he trained with?

I did have some doubts about people who trained with KC which is quite a while ago now.
I remember one person (being very careful here with details) I remember saying to the person organising the workshops there is no way that person can possibly pass the course. That person did. It just seemed to me you paid for the course and got your cert ie you basically bought it.
(that is not the person you are referring to)

 

[Miss_Millie]

Garry Hinton

5️⃣ reasons why we always leave the toe (inner hoof wall) on the ground…. ✅ FEEDBACK - The horn tubules relay messages of stimulation to the papillae, which are located in the sockets of the...

www.facebook.com

How can anyone think that looks or functions right

 

[Miss_Millie]

Without looking deeply into it most if the uk horse population seems to need more heel not less

Yep, most horses I see have underrun heels and too long of a toe.

 

[FieldOrnaments]

i think we might need to be careful with naming specific practitioners due to forum rules on libel, this discussion needs to stay open so people can make informed choices on the hoofcare professionals they choose to use

 

[tristars]

I would Imagine all sorts of rubbish getting wedged in that gap, i always thought the white line seems softer and integrity of the line is protected by the hoof wall and sole, stretching of the white line just wow.

 

[Reacher]

That’s horrific @dorsetladette im so sorry reading that

 

[Miss_Millie]

totally agree that there are good and bad in all professions. It's up to us to find what works for our horses. After my terrible experience I educated myself in hoof health too.

We noticed at the Royal welsh that one poor horse in the farrier section had been stood there from 8am until tea time and walked out only wearing 2 shoes (one on the back and one on the front) we commented on how long it had taken. Hopefully things have moved on from the speed rounds of farriers competitions.


What I found out about the 'trimming world' put me off ever using one again. The lack of accountability and their own rules that are openly manipulated to suit the narrative they want to preach. I could set up a trimming organisation tomorrow and then set my own rules and regulations. Send out qualification certificates to my friends and family who could then trade as barefoot trimmers with no prior training.

I was sucked in by the hype too. I used a barefoot trimmer who banged their own drum so much everyone repeated it (like a song you hear repeatedly on the radio). He took shoes off for me when I first bought my welsh cob and then proceeded to take his feet back to the nail holes 'to prevent infection getting into the feet'. I didn't see this happen as I was haying and poo picking my other horses while B was tied up for trimming (naive I know). I was just given this as a reason/excuse after I returned and questioned (and cried a bit). My horse was crippled. Their were spots of blood around the toes on his fronts and his heels on his hinds were bright pink (white feet). He'd taken so much hoof away he was walking on his soles/frogs and then to try and make that look better he took away sole to match. His soles were so damaged, literally paper thin. It took the best part of a year to correct. B sprung abscesses in both back feet that under-ran from his heel under what was left of his sole right to the point of his frog. I pretty much dry bandaged his feet for the entire winter to give him some support. He was never 100% right after this and i do base his arthritis in his knees and hock down to how uneven he was for so long putting pressure on his joints incorrectly. My farrier then visited weekly and took the tiniest bit of growth off to help him grow foot back evenly.

I spoke out at the time (before I was on HHO) and got ridiculously bullied by the trimmer and his partner and their merry band of followers to the point I was threatened with my horses being stolen/taken. I was reported to the RSPCA by them and photos of my horses feet were posted all over the internet (perfectly good feet before he touched them I just wanted rear shoes off to turn him out with my others but was rail roaded in to so much more) with terrible messages of neglect and abuse and his band of merry men joined in. It's like they were describing an donkey sanctuary fund raising advert on the TV. Worst of all trimmer and his wife kept their horses next to mine and had to drive through my rented field to get to theirs it was daily abuse endlessly. They'd wait until I left of an evening and take waters off my horses (stacking buckets outside field gate) and report to RSPCA. RSPCA visited several times and wanted vet reports on feet every time - my vet happily chatted with them on the phone but one obnoxious inspector repeatedly insisted on a vet visit where my vet would provide x rays and progress photos showing the improvements. I got copies of x rays from B's previous owners vet (I didn't vet before purchase, but they only owned a short time before selling on luckily) so we could show before trimmer, after trimmer and the progress made since and my vet would openly name the trimmer that caused the issue to the inspector as they were normally hanging around watching. It got to the point that I waited up the road to see them drive home then go back and refill my waters to make sure my horses had water over night. They also started treating my friends horse for mud fever even though she was doing it herself. Honestly never met crazy like it! His wife spat in my face and assaulted me. I moved my horses in the end but it was a really terrible time. But it didn't stop, they set up email accounts and started emailing my friends and family with all sorts of stories about me. They even replied to adverts I put up looking for grazing telling me 'what actually happened' it was relentless for a very long time. Then all of a sudden it just stopped.

This was over a decade ago. The guy is still trading as a trimmer and still has a strong following locally, but no one who actually rides their horses. From memory he attended less than 10 training sessions working on deceased horses feet and then became qualified. he worked in IT previously.

Sorry if this is garbled, it was a very upsetting time and reliving it isn't pleasant.

This is utterly horrendous, I'm so sorry you had to go through that. Bullies in the horse world come in all shapes and sizes

 

[dorsetladette]

I'm sorry you had such a terrible time DL.
Are you willing to say which group he trained with?

I did have some doubts about people who trained with KC which is quite a while ago now.
I remember one person (being very careful here with details) I remember saying to the person organising the workshops there is no way that person can possibly pass the course. That person did. It just seemed to me you paid for the course and got your cert ie you basically bought it.
(that is not the person you are referring to)

It was the equine podiatry association.

So I was wrong in my description he's not a trimmer but a podiatrist.



Thank you Everyone - it was horrendous at the time and bringing it back up is horrible but people do need to know what these 'crazies' are like.

 

[suestowford]

I had a pony once who had the most perfect feet I've ever seen. He never wore shoes and because of that he wore his feet down naturally. He was a straight mover so they wore down well and he rarely needed a trim from the farrier. So I would suggest that he had naturally good feet & conformation that encouraged them to be the perfect shape - and that was not with low heels and a long toe.

Cultish ideas are rife in the horse world though aren't they? There was Strasser, the Parellis, Monty Roberts & all the rest. I think there are a lot of people out there who really shouldn't have horses.

 

[Tiddlypom]

.

It was the equine podiatry association.

So I was wrong in my description he's not a trimmer but a podiatrist.

The EPA is THE professional body for barefoot trimmers .

My n=1 disastrous trimmer was/is an EPA full member too. There aren’t that many of them, maybe 40 or so, you’d think the EPA could at least try and ensure that those out there are competent.

The Equine Podiatry Association (UK)

Launched in April 2006, the Equine Podiatry Association (UK) exists as a self-regulating professional body for our Equine Podiatrist members practicing in the UK. The Association’s aim is to regulate and support our Equine Podiatrist members working in the UK, promoting responsible shoeless...

www.epauk.org

 

[dorsetladette]

.

The EPA is THE professional body for barefoot trimmers .

My n=1 disastrous trimmer was/is an EPA full member too. There aren’t that many of them, maybe 40 or so, you’d think the EPA could at least try and ensure that those out there are competent.

The Equine Podiatry Association (UK)

Launched in April 2006, the Equine Podiatry Association (UK) exists as a self-regulating professional body for our Equine Podiatrist members practicing in the UK. The Association’s aim is to regulate and support our Equine Podiatrist members working in the UK, promoting responsible shoeless...

www.epauk.org

The term self regulating is the bit the gives me shivers.

Proper narcissistic terminology.

 

[paddy555]

It was the equine podiatry association.

So I was wrong in my description he's not a trimmer but a podiatrist.



Thank you Everyone - it was horrendous at the time and bringing it back up is horrible but people do need to know what these 'crazies' are like.

EPA really. That is not good that it was not dealt with professionally when it went wrong.

I'm so sorry this happened to you.

 

[paddy555]

Cultish ideas are rife in the horse world though aren't they? There was Strasser, the Parellis, Monty Roberts & all the rest. I think there are a lot of people out there who really shouldn't have horses.

they certainly seem to be rife.

 

[paddy555]

The term self regulating is the bit the gives me shivers.

Proper narcissistic terminology.

I looked on TP's EPA link above under complaints. There are 2 listed. One is about a website so not really relevant. The other is about poor work and the trimmer was found not to be at fault.
Bit like farriers then as far as complaints go. Pointless.

So grateful my horses don't have to have anything to do with these cults and various trimmers.

 

[Miss_Millie]

I had a pony once who had the most perfect feet I've ever seen. He never wore shoes and because of that he wore his feet down naturally. He was a straight mover so they wore down well and he rarely needed a trim from the farrier. So I would suggest that he had naturally good feet & conformation that encouraged them to be the perfect shape - and that was not with low heels and a long toe.

Cultish ideas are rife in the horse world though aren't they? There was Strasser, the Parellis, Monty Roberts & all the rest. I think there are a lot of people out there who really shouldn't have horses.

Yes, and it's ironic that some of the nastiest bullies in the horse world are self proclaimed welfare advocates. I can't believe that someone who regularly picks fights and belittles others online can be a truly kind and caring person in the bigger picture of things - to me it just reinforces that it's a money making scheme and an ego trip. The fanatics are always so clearly distinguishable from the regular, down to earth people, but sometimes it only takes meeting one crazy person from an extremist ideology to tar everyone with the same brush in that person's mind.

I'm also frustrated by the aggressive online presence of these people for that reason, because they make all barefoot/track system using people look bananas, when the reality is that they're only a small percentage of obsessive ideologists, and most people who have barefoot horses (at least the people I know in real life) are quite normal!

 

[dorsetladette]

I looked on TP's EPA link above under complaints. There are 2 listed. One is about a website so not really relevant. The other is about poor work and the trimmer was found not to be at fault.
Bit like farriers then as far as complaints go. Pointless.

So grateful my horses don't have to have anything to do with these cults and various trimmers.

I'd suggest that maybe there are more complaints than those listed on there website. I can't believe in 18 years only 2 complaints were made. Mine isn't listed.

I'm very grateful for my none crazy professionals now.

 

[Fieldlife]

.

The EPA is THE professional body for barefoot trimmers .

My n=1 disastrous trimmer was/is an EPA full member too. There aren’t that many of them, maybe 40 or so, you’d think the EPA could at least try and ensure that those out there are competent.

The Equine Podiatry Association (UK)

Launched in April 2006, the Equine Podiatry Association (UK) exists as a self-regulating professional body for our Equine Podiatrist members practicing in the UK. The Association’s aim is to regulate and support our Equine Podiatrist members working in the UK, promoting responsible shoeless...

www.epauk.org

It’s not THE body for professional trimmers in U.K. It’s one option, are other U.K. professional bodies too.

EPs are one barefoot flavour.

 

[southerncomfort]

Just in the interests of balance, and before thread morphs in to bashing all trimmers, I've had 3 different trimmers over the years and they've all been brilliant.

They've all been nice people to have around, offered lots of useful, sound advice. Never been bossy or bullying. Always arrive on time, book the next appointment before they leave etc.

It's just always been a pleasant experience unlike my experiences with farriers(one was always drunk and had to employ someone to drive him to appointments as he'd lost his licence, another who was completely silent and never spoke a word to me the whole time he was there and if I spoke to him he just grunted, plus the one who caused mechanical laminitis by leaving my pony's toes too long)

I've never had any issues with any of my ponies feet while under the care of trimmers, and they have almost all been in work over that time.

I'm certainly not evangelical about it, and if any had needed shoes, they would have had them. Although I will say that the local farriers here sound like absolute tyrants. My poor friend feels sick every time her farrier is due.

I'm really sorry for those that have poor experiences with trimmers, but bad experiences with a farrier doesn't mean all farriers are bad, and neither does one bad trimmer = all equine podiatry is evil.

If the likes of HM and the evangelical cultishness around them is pushing people to associate all barefoot trimmers with that level of bonkers, then that's a real shame, not just for owners, but for the decent trimmers out there that work hard to make sure they provide the best possible service they can by regularly taking extra courses after qualifying etc.

Personally I think both farriers and trimmers ought to be under closer scrutiny.