barefoot, I am getting seriously worried.

[Jambarissa]

The problem is that there are no authorities @Exasperated.

Barefoot trimming requires no qualifications, has no overseeing body, no list to be struck off from.

I assume HM have their own practitioners and people seek them out after reading the FB.

All that can happen is they lame horses and get a bad reputation, hopefully that reputation extends beyond the person to their method of trimming.

 

[Exasperated]

No, rather like commercial dog walkers describing themselves as ‘professional’, some may be conscientious, study extensively and are extremely good, others not so. Ironically, Strasser Method trimmers appear to do just that, are certificated / licensed / complete CPD etc.
RSPCA and ILPH have brought several cases against professional hoof trimmers, eg notable 2006 conviction of Mary Jo Kowzalski (or similar name) for causing cruelty, case reliant on veterinary and farrier evidence from their respective professional associations, with complete condemnation of Strasser’s techniques.
I haven’t read HM liturgy, just makes me cross, but plenty of places to report abuse to hapless horses.

 

[dorsetladette]

No, rather like commercial dog walkers describing themselves as ‘professional’, some may be conscientious, study extensively and are extremely good, others not so. Ironically, Strasser Method trimmers appear to do just that, are certificated / licensed / complete CPD etc.
RSPCA and ILPH have brought several cases against professional hoof trimmers, eg notable 2006 conviction of Mary Jo Kowzalski (or similar name) for causing cruelty, case reliant on veterinary and farrier evidence from their respective professional associations, with complete condemnation of Strasser’s techniques.
I haven’t read HM liturgy, just makes me cross, but plenty of places to report abuse to hapless horses.

I totally understand your frustration, but do you really think that the 'gullible' owner will think to report to the RSPCA - that the horse they own and have responsibility for has been hurt/damaged by someone they employed to help maintain the welfare stands of. It's a bit like saying 'I've abused my horse, come and prosecute me'

I very much doubt there will be many vets or farriers that will want to get involved with fighting a battle with the crazies in the first place. muck sticks and these loons are very quick to start flinging it around.

All we can really do is hope that 'gullible' owners do their research and see this thread and others on the subject.

FYI - I was one of those 'gullible' owners 12-15 years ago as I trusted what I was told. My vet and 'new' farrier helped me nurse my horse through recovery. At no point did either of them mention reporting the trimmer that caused the issue. But openly spoke about issues that they had witnessed previously.

 

[paddy555]

I totally understand your frustration, but do you really think that the 'gullible' owner will think to report to the RSPCA - that the horse they own and have responsibility for has been hurt/damaged by someone they employed to help maintain the welfare stands of. It's a bit like saying 'I've abused my horse, come and prosecute me'

I very much doubt there will be many vets or farriers that will want to get involved with fighting a battle with the crazies in the first place. muck sticks and these loons are very quick to start flinging it around.

All we can really do is hope that 'gullible' owners do their research and see this thread and others on the subject.

FYI - I was one of those 'gullible' owners 12-15 years ago as I trusted what I was told. My vet and 'new' farrier helped me nurse my horse through recovery. At no point did either of them mention reporting the trimmer that caused the issue. But openly spoke about issues that they had witnessed previously.

the gullible owners won't even report it on safer places such as on here (where they are for the most part anonymous or can be) for the simple reason they are so ashamed as to what they have let happen to their horse.

 

[Exasperated]

Surely, if a horse / horses kept on a yard with yours, or somewhere you visited and had witnessed, had feet butchered, pain and lameness from inappropriate trimming - you would report this? I would.
And know a farrier who has done so, having seen this on a yard where he was shoeing for another owner, and isn’t the only one angry enough to act. Vets similarly, all professionals are close-lipped and wary of conflict, but doesn’t mean they don’t inform relevant agencies of a serious welfare issue when they come upon it.
Cf: ILPH aka WHW, RSPCA, local authority’s Animal Welfare Officer, BHS Welfare, with UK legal precedent existing against Strasser type, ‘extreme trims’.
I agree, brainwashed or mortified owners are unlikely to do much, so it’s crucial that others do.

 

[FieldOrnaments]

The issue is most if not all of what has been discussed here is online; the RSPCA need a location to visit at least to check on an animal's welfare, which you can't glean from facebook posts. Additionally HM seems to be predominantly online learning so they have 'practitioners' globally but there is no single global animal welfare organisation. If I knew or saw of someone irl doing this to their horses, I'd absolutely report it and some of the 'trims' on the HM group are probably worse than some ponies confiscated by welfare charities - but from just photos on the internet which could be anywhere in the world from New Zealand, America, South Africa...who do you report to? WHat could they do? It's tricky because there are no laws on posting videos about trimming on the internet, or having opinions on hoofcare, which is effectively what they do. But even just taking into account the UK based cohort of the group, they are not under the behest of the WCF as they aren't calling themselves farriers, nor the equine podiatry association for the same reasons.
Is horse welfare suffering as a result, IMO yes - looking at the below I'm not sure how anyone can say it's not, horses' limbs aren't designed to take forces through feet like this and the knock on effects elsewhere in the body must be substantial.

(Random selection of stuff from the first bit of the hm group, not targeting any one person in particular. I feel just as sorry for the owners, who are desperate to help their horses and pay exorbitant fees for HM's 'content' hoping it will help. It is an abuse of them as much as of the animals.)

 

[Exasperated]

Certainly looks grim enough to prosecute in the UK, which may be the best that can be achieved, and would strongly urge any witnesses to act, promptly.
Possibly it’s more seductive to insecure and younger leisure owners, social media adepts? Yet more cyber bullying, coercive control and on line grooming? Very depressing, first-world problems again.
I refuse to read HM proselytising having seen this, but an international legacy of lame, unworkable horses - particularly in places where equids HAVE to work - should see it off, eventually.
Meanwhile we all need to report equine mutilation, wherever possible.

 

[tda]

I've rejoined HM and the Phoenix pathway just for a look again. It appears it is full of people, worldwide, who don't know what to do, and being told over the iternet to trim a certain way is just not going to work for most of them

 

[paddy555]

I've rejoined HM and the Phoenix pathway just for a look again. It appears it is full of people, worldwide, who don't know what to do, and being told over the iternet to trim a certain way is just not going to work for most of them

Not much changed then. I'm no longer a member. They didn't like my comments, can you believe it!

the basic problem with HM is that the followers only have the capacity to evaluate it as a cult and when someone attacks your leader you close ranks because the leader is right.
They don't unfortunately have the knowledge to evaluate it as anything else. They don't have the basic anatomy knowledge nor knowledge of various trimming methods and seem unwilling to learn anything else in order to form a more balanced judgement.
The other problem of course is that anything not in agreement is removed so they don't see anything except perfection. If you don't see anything to suggest it could be problematical you can only assume there are no problems.

I'm a bit lost as to why they won't be more open minded and then they could make a better judgement.

 

[tda]

It is our way or the highway isn't it.
I just feel if half the horses were walked over some appropriate surfaces they would start their self trim. This is never mentioned
They insist to leave the toe to grow out which I actually don't have a problem with if suitable, but the horses are kept on soft surfaces so no wear,

They are travelling to the USA to run clinics next year

 

[Miss_Millie]

It's Nick Hill. A video was posted by Lindsey Field who does hoof disections on a page called "The Study of the Equine Hoof." Nick is a farrier turned trimmer who is very well respected in the trimming world. I've had the good fortune to meet him several times and see his work (including trimming one of my own horses). He put up a second video a day or so later of the horse in question, Skye, walking quite comfortably in boots.
He just put out a statement on his page:

STATEMENT FROM V&T EQUINE SERVICES

We shared Skye’s journey since the day we met her. We have openly and honestly documented the work performed on her and have laid that out to be seen plainly and in detail. The original video and any consecutive videos, comments and posts, more of which will follow as promised, have only one purpose - to demonstrate how her first session went, what was done and why and how this has affected her in the following days.
Discussion has been open and welcome since day one, as has always been the case with both of us - Nick and Ralitsa. We appreciate the majority of commenters, who have remained respectful and mindful of how they come across. We have done our best to explain the little that was not covered in the original video and continue to do so, as to not shed any doubt that we truly welcome diverse opinions.
However this has not been the sole topic of discussion. One professional in particular, has made libellous claims against Nick. We are prepared to take this as far as necessary as lies and spreading misinformation is not tolerated particularly with the background of the open and transparent updates we continue to share about Skye. Like Skye’s owner, we have also helped many others, including some of those who now have decided to use lies to, presumably, aid their agenda. Because this professional has openly stated this libellous claim and has not been reprimanded publicly by the organisation that has trained them, we are only left to assume that the organisation tolerates such behaviour and completely lacks any ethics or professional code of conduct.
The purpose of this statement is to make anyone aware that fact checking is necessary when coming across information of any kind. Please be mindful that what you are reading is true before making your mind up about a claim.

I thought this was worth updating as there's a nice video of the mare in question, Skye, having a run around the field looking very bright, with a detailed description from her owner of her progress so far. According to HM's followers her feet were 'butchered', yet here she is looking rather sound only a few months later.

HM use sensationalist language to manipulate their followers. This was a comment from one of their cult followers on Nick's original post of Skye:

'Awful awful video. I'm crying my eyes out, yes I have watched the whole thing. Poor poor skye. This

should not be allowed to be posted. Absolute total abuse.'

I feel that this should continue to be highlighted, because it's quite alarming how many run-of-the-mill horse owners HM have hooked with their propaganda and how they continue to spin a false narrative that every trimmer not following their long toe 'method' is an animal abuser who doesn't know what they're doing.

I think this thread is important to keep going whilst they continue to spread false information and quite frankly, hatred - maybe someone who isn't sure about their messaging will find their way here.

 

[Hoofstudies]

I thought this was worth updating as there's a nice video of the mare in question, Skye, having a run around the field looking very bright, with a detailed description from her owner of her progress so far. According to HM's followers her feet were 'butchered', yet here she is looking rather sound only a few months later.

HM use sensationalist language to manipulate their followers. This was a comment from one of their cult followers on Nick's original post of Skye:

'Awful awful video. I'm crying my eyes out, yes I have watched the whole thing. Poor poor skye. This

should not be allowed to be posted. Absolute total abuse.'

I feel that this should continue to be highlighted, because it's quite alarming how many run-of-the-mill horse owners HM have hooked with their propaganda and how they continue to spin a false narrative that every trimmer not following their long toe 'method' is an animal abuser who doesn't know what they're doing.

I think this thread is important to keep going whilst they continue to spread false information and quite frankly, hatred - maybe someone who isn't sure about their messaging will find their way here.

Thanks for highlighting this.

 

[Hoofstudies]

It is our way or the highway isn't it.
I just feel if half the horses were walked over some appropriate surfaces they would start their self trim. This is never mentioned
They insist to leave the toe to grow out which I actually don't have a problem with if suitable, but the horses are kept on soft surfaces so no wear,

They are travelling to the USA to run clinics next year

They are also travelling to NZ and Australia.

 

[Fransurrey]

They are also travelling to NZ and Australia.

This is all sounding terribly reminiscent of Strasser. How many horses were lamed at the height of that cult, I shudder to think. All we can do to prepare is educate, but:

"You can take a human to knowledge, but you can't make it think."

 

[Hoofstudies]

The issue I feel is that a charismatic leader is appearing to promise cures. People with horse’s that have issues are desperate and I have been there myself. To get 100% cure for every horse treated by the method is frankly not possible. There will always be outliers and these are not mentioned.

How they trim in laminitis is worrying but if it is helping the horses as they say it is then maybe they do have the miracle.

My concern is the vile spewed at vets and farriers and now trimmers or anyone that does not follow their method. That’s my red flag. Plus the owners who are desperate for a cure.

In fairness some of the professionally trimmed laminitics they show are simply horrifying and especially when there is no light at the end of the tunnel.
And especially if owners don’t change the diet and husbandry.

I think it’s a case of waiting this one out and seeing if time will tell.

They maybe into something new.
We shall see.

The horse may improve but what about the rest of the body’s biomechanics?

The foot may improve despite the flipper at its toe.

It’s all hype and noise right now.
So let’s see how this pans out.
But if you don’t follow the rules and you are a trimmer or farrier then watch out for your jobs… or be prepared to follow the method.