Boggle- USA bound!

[Michen]

Can you have a frank discussion with your vet there or the one you trust in the UK to help you decide

Yes I’ve emailed them both to ask them to discuss. I want to know how many joints they could or would inject at once, rather than just the couple that look bad on x ray. I suspect it’s pointless as my vet did say he felt systemic steroids are 80% as good as targeted injections, but maybe that extra 20% would be what prevents him from needing omeprazole or having those slight pain reactions.

 

[Nonjumper]

This is the very situation we all dread as pet owners, regardless of the type of animal involved .... when to call it a day.

Deep down I think you know the answer, but finally making that decision is still insanely hard, particularly if the animal seems bright. My vet once told me that "it's better a week too early, than a day too late" and I try to keep this in mind when facing this type of 'do I, don't I?' scenario.

 

[EventingMum]

It's very hard. I think you need to put you first although I know you probably won't but the stress is ongoing with Bog and you have done really well but a breaking point will come at some point. You have gone above and beyond for him in every way possible. A vet once said to me euthanasia isn't a welfare issue and it is so true, a horse has no concept of the future and honestly, most horses are used to being injected (if you were to choose this method) so he won't know any differently. For me, personally, the risk of an ataxic horse falling and injuring someone is huge, I narrowly escaped this with one of my own and it was the thing that made me make the final decision, I couldn't risk it happening to someone else, it broke me but I had to do it.

My other thought is, apart from the journey to take him somewhere warmer would you have to give up the currents tabling and companion and how would you replace that if you were to bring him back next summer? Also you are Bog's person and I'm not sure either of you would benefit from being apart too long. You pick up every little nuance in him, others entrusted with his care may not.

You have had a plan in mind, it's not one you wanted but it was made for all the right reasons from a time when it wasn't imminent, obviously it's so much harder as that time approaches but your reasons for making it in the first place are still largely valid.

You are going to get many different opinions from people and sometimes it's not helpful to have so many voices in your head. If I were you I would speak to your trusted UK vet whom you seem to get on so well with and see what he thinks as he knows both you and Bog. Ultimately, whatever you decide I wish you well and I know HHO will be here for you x

 

[rabatsa]

Whatever you decide there will always be What Ifs.

It is a hard call to make and a happy Bog is what you want. Deep down do you think that he will be a happy Bog come winter?

 

[Michen]

It's very hard. I think you need to put first although I know you probably won't but the stress is ongoing with Bog and you have done really well but a breaking point will come at some point. You have gone above and beyond for him in every way possible. A vet once said to me euthanasia isn't a welfare issue and it is so true, a horse has no concept of the future and honestly, most horses are used to being injected (if you were to choose this method) so he won't know any differently. For me, personally, the risk of an ataxic horse falling and injuring someone is huge, I narrowly escaped this with one of my own and it was the thing that made me make the final decision, I couldn't risk it happening to someone else, it broke me but I had to do it.

My other thought is, apart from the journey to take him somewhere warmer would you have to give up the currents tabling and companion and how would you replace that if you were to bring him back next summer? Also you are Bog's person and I'm not sure either of you would benefit from being apart too long. You pick up every little nuance in him, others entrusted with his care may not.

You have had a plan in mind, it's not one you wanted but it was made for all the right reasons from a time when it wasn't imminent, obviously it's so much harder as that time approaches but your reasons for making it in the first place are still largely valid.

You are going to get many different opinions from people and sometimes it's not helpful to have so many voices in your head. If I were you I would speak to your trusted UK vet whom you seem to get on so well with and see what he thinks as he knows both you and Bog. Ultimately, whatever you decide I wish you well and I know HHO will be here for you x

Thank you. Appreciate that. If I were to haul him out of state, I’d go with him. No way is us not being together an option, I couldn’t trust anyone to notice the things I notice.

Assuming current companion still around (old boy at 25) he could go back to his house and come back next year. I don’t think the barn owner would rent to anyone else if I wanted to come back.

 

[Michen]

Whatever you decide there will always be What Ifs.

It is a hard call to make and a happy Bog is what you want. Deep down do you think that he will be a happy Bog come winter?

I wish I knew. I don’t know if I’m sort of romanticizing his current set up, and he’d be fine in something that might not look as nice or be as pleasing ie a smaller acerage or whatnot. Does Bog care about the weather? Probably. I can’t imagine things don’t ache more in the cold, even with the lack of humidity.

 

[TPO]

Three points come to mind:

1) I think you/good owners know when it's time. In your gut you'll already know if it's now or if it's your imagination tormenting you.

2) @j1ffy makes a good point about your own well being. I didn't realise the stress that my 6yr long sick note was causing me until the day he was pts. I was devastated, even more so because I let 2 go that day, but what I wasn't expecting was a huge weight lifting. I didn't even know I'd been carrying it.

3) Might it be worth checking in with your therapist. Having a horse pts is always upsetting but it reads like it might have an even harder than "normal" impact on you. It might be worth speaking to someone to help you.

Take care

 

[nutjob]

I wouldn't personally take him on an 18 hour trip in a trailer, especially given that it's unlikely to give him a significant extension to his life and as you suggest a trip that long has the potential to cause other problems. Can you broaden your range of options by expanding the radius to within 3/4 hours of where you are now? I would see the impact of being stabled with arthritis of the neck as being less than if it affected the legs as the neck can still move to eat and look around. Having someone on site is also better for a compromised horse than grooms popping in just to do chores.

Is it an option to give bute for pain relief rather than inject the neck again if it caused problems last time?

 

[Michen]

I wouldn't personally take him on an 18 hour trip in a trailer, especially given that it's unlikely to give him a significant extension to his life and as you suggest a trip that long has the potential to cause other problems. Can you broaden your range of options by expanding the radius to within 3/4 hours of where you are now? I would see the impact of being stabled with arthritis of the neck as being less than if it affected the legs as the neck can still move to eat and look around. Having someone on site is also better for a compromised horse than grooms popping in just to do chores.

Is it an option to give bute for pain relief rather than inject the neck again if it caused problems last time?

It could get him closer to New Mexico and maybe a little better but not enough to justify it. And I can’t be that far from a major airport for work, and I need to be with him. I could not trust a boarding barn to just look after him, and honestly the standard as you get further away from major cities (which that would be) becomes more and more… western lol.

Sorry that sounds dismissive of any ideas and I’m not trying to be, everything is just so difficult.

I think it’s more about keeping inflammation down in the neck, hence the steroids.. he was on daily equioxx before but didn’t really help. I did try bute and saw no diff. Steroids seemed to be the ticket.

 

[palo1]

I wish I knew. I don’t know if I’m sort of romanticizing his current set up, and he’d be fine in something that might not look as nice or be as pleasing ie a smaller acerage or whatnot. Does Bog care about the whether? Probably. I can’t imagine things don’t ache more in the cold, even with the lack of humidity.

It is so tough on you Currently you don't sound as if you know for sure that the time has come, albeit knowing about potential winter issues. I have found, on occasion that it can help to be a bit more fatalistic about horses, without relinquishing our ultimate responsibility for their physical and mental health. Things can go horribly wrong, at any time and in seconds...we may be on hand or not. Bad weather, broken down vehicles, being away from home, being in a difficult location,vet unable to get there quick enough: all these things are possible and we pay a price for both knowing that, and on occasion having to live with the actuality.

You can make the decision to pts at any time, you can plan it but things can still be taken out of your hands and go sideways so...we are all left with just doing our best using cold knowledge and our intuition.

Do you have a sense of how resilient Bog is currently generally? The ataxia is a known unpredictability, the steroids seem to be working, so do you think he could winter well out of state? Wintering in CO seems very difficult all round from what you have said so far and it sounds like you think that wouldn't have much positive going for it from Bog's point of view.

Do YOU need to make a decision for your own health and sanity or is it easier for you to keep dancing on the edge of the Boggle shaped knife? That seems really important to me because whatever you do/arrange, you absolutely cannot guarantee that you can be at Boggle's side quickly enough if that is needed. None of us can guarantee that for our horses. It is one of the hardest things to accept I think. No answers from me I am afraid: whatever you do won't be wrong.

My own experience is that emergency or not, we usually know, within ourselves when the risks outweigh the benefits and then it becomes straightforward to make the call. I am sorry that you are having to try to second guess so many uncertainties and your emotional health. Hugs.

 

[Michen]

It is so tough on you Currently you don't sound as if you know for sure that the time has come, albeit knowing about potential winter issues. I have found, on occasion that it can help to be a bit more fatalistic about horses, without relinquishing our ultimate responsibility for their physical and mental health. Things can go horribly wrong, at any time and in seconds...we may be on hand or not. Bad weather, broken down vehicles, being away from home, being in a difficult location,vet unable to get there quick enough: all these things are possible and we pay a price for both knowing that, and on occasion having to live with the actuality.

You can make the decision to pts at any time, you can plan it but things can still be taken out of your hands and go sideways so...we are all left with just doing our best using cold knowledge and our intuition.

Do you have a sense of how resilient Bog is currently generally? The ataxia is a known unpredictability, the steroids seem to be working, so do you think he could winter well out of state? Wintering in CO seems very difficult all round from what you have said so far and it sounds like you think that wouldn't have much positive going for it from Bog's point of view.

Do YOU need to make a decision for your own health and sanity or is it easier for you to keep dancing on the edge of the Boggle shaped knife? That seems really important to me because whatever you do/arrange, you absolutely cannot guarantee that you can be at Boggle's side quickly enough if that is needed. None of us can guarantee that for our horses. It is one of the hardest things to accept I think. No answers from me I am afraid: whatever you do won't be wrong.

My own experience is that emergency or not, we usually know, within ourselves when the risks outweigh the benefits and then it becomes straightforward to make the call. I am sorry that you are having to try to second guess so many uncertainties and your emotional health. Hugs.

Ataxia wise you wouldn’t know he was ataxic unless you were a vet. To anyone else he’s a normal horse.

My mental state.. ha. I honestly don’t know. When he got cellulitis I almost wanted it to be really bad and be free of the choice. But he’s also like my anchor, albeit a high maintenance one. At the moment the only stress he’s causing me is this decision, I get tons of joy just being around him, I don’t worry about him on a daily basis. I’m perfectly happy to leave the country and watch him on camera and know my friends are all around checking on him etc. Though I also do stupid things like heading back to Denver between flights just to lay over to check on him

 

[palo1]

Ataxia wise you wouldn’t know he was ataxic unless you were a vet. To anyone else he’s a normal horse.

My mental state.. ha. I honestly don’t know. When he got cellulitis I almost wanted it to be really bad and be free of the choice. But he’s also like my anchor, albeit a high maintenance one. At the moment the only stress he’s causing me is this decision, I get tons of joy just being around him, I don’t worry about him on a daily basis. I’m perfectly happy to leave the country and watch him on camera and know my friends are all around checking on him etc. Though I also do stupid things like heading back to Denver between flights just to lay over to check on him

He's clearly got you where he wants you!! It might not be helpful but what would you do if he was much older at this point, compromised but normal seeming, acting and enjoying life the vast majority of time? What would you advise a good friend to do in that situation ? Can you accept the idea of you not being there in a real crisis, having to let someone else call the vet and pts? I know a more concerning scenario would be that no one could get there due to weather - how likely is that?

 

[Michen]

He's clearly got you where he wants you!! It might not be helpful but what would you do if he was much older at this point, compromised but normal seeming, acting and enjoying life the vast majority of time? What would you advise a good friend to do in that situation ? Can you accept the idea of you not being there in a real crisis, having to let someone else call the vet and pts? I know a more concerning scenario would be that no one could get there due to weather - how likely is that?

Oh gosh I just don’t know. I really don’t. I can’t even imagine how I’d advise a friend- I think I’d tell them to PTS based on the words but if I saw Boggle with my own eyes I’d think no way.

My equine vet friend (not Bogs primary vet) feels strongly I should PTS. She thinks the risk of him going catastrophic is too imminent and high.

My other equine vet friend, who treated him in hospital both times, was less decisive, but maybe because she is still very much his vet and has to remain neutral. Her concern was more that we truly don’t know how much pain he’s in because he’s so brave. She saw him nearly dead with the pneumonia and still fighting endlessly to live. I think she’d be more inclined to try neck steroids to see if it eliminated those remaining question marks over his comfort.

My horse friends who are around him think he’s not ready to go.

So, it’s unbelievably hard to know.

 

[Trouper]

This is a hellish decision but I am going to come down off the fence and say I would let him go before Winter.

Is he really going to be happier/healthier/any better than he is now? The options open to you might work but it all involves moves, new people to engage with his care and the continuing worry (though that is the least important on my list) which all might impact on the standard that he is at now. Would you feel happy seeing any deterioration because of the move or the location?

I would certainly take the opportunity to talk to my UK vets (and anyone else) to make sure that I had not missed anything but you are now the expert on him and his condition so unless there is some new treatment .................

He has been having a blast these last few months - that is how I would want to remember him.

 

[Boulty]

It’s so hard Michen and I don’t envy you trying to make that decision.

If you stuck to your original plan your last memories of him would be in the wonderful setup you’ve found for him and you could guarantee you’d be able to be there & pick the vet you got. But yes that does mean living with the What Ifs re how much longer he could have carried on for.

It doesn’t sound sensible to remain where you are for winter with the very real threat of being cut off by snow & the risk of what deterioration a bad winter would cause Bog anyway.

If there was an option below the likely snow line not TOO far away that may be a viable one to try but it sounds like you’ve been keeping an eye out for a while and not turned anything up that you’re happy would work for him.

I personally wouldn’t travel a horse with the issues he has the distances it would take to completely escape the winter weather. Only you & your vet know of that option is truly realistic (& if the livery options available would actually be any good for him)

There’s no guarantee if you went with either of these options that things would stay stable/ that something else wouldn’t go wrong with him.

I’ve had 2 horses PTS so far. One as a slightly hastily planned thing as he was doing ok at end of Autumn & then when Winter hit he suddenly really wasn’t (combination of stabling, cold / damp, snow and a sudden decline in his mobility. Went from galloping about to lame at walk in space of about a month). One done with the sun on his back whilst he was still doing relatively ok because I knew the future was not good for him & I didn’t want him to suffer it. (He had many issues, neck / back arthritis being one of them & like Bog I suspected he was in daily pain, I just didn’t know how much, unlike Bog he wasn’t ataxic but he did have a host of other issues). By far the easiest one to come to terms with was the one where it was more pre planned.

Be kind to yourself whatever you decide xxx

 

[Michen]

This is a hellish decision but I am going to come down off the fence and say I would let him go before Winter.

Is he really going to be happier/healthier/any better than he is now? The options open to you might work but it all involves moves, new people to engage with his care and the continuing worry (though that is the least important on my list) which all might impact on the standard that he is at now. Would you feel happy seeing any deterioration because of the move or the location?

I would certainly take the opportunity to talk to my UK vets (and anyone else) to make sure that I had not missed anything but you are now the expert on him and his condition so unless there is some new treatment .................

He has been having a blast these last few months - that is how I would want to remember him.

Urgh the tears are starting! Your last paragraph hit home. I kind of can’t imagine moving him from where he is. It’s just been so special for us both, and whilst currently he causes me no stress yes- I’d be very worried about moving him, ensuring the care is right, he’s always got ad lib hay, rugged right, etc. I will find boarding stressful to go through with him.

But I’d do it if I felt it was right, of course. But I’d only do it if I knew he had years ahead of him and another few summers at least. I would not do it just to keep him going for another 6 months.

 

[misst]

I am not going to tell you what to do - I don't know. I have been in this position - youngish really well looking horse who had multiple problems. He was turned away (with us) for the summer with a view to PTS in the autumn. I cried most days as he just didn't look ready. Then he went horribly lame again for no obvious reason in the July. Our wonderful vet PTS without a thought and to this day I have no idea if he had lammi or an abscess or another exacerbation of his soft tissue injuries. So I understand about the cellulitis thing and hoping it would make the decision for you. I hope, in the nicest way, something like that happens but if it doesn't you will do what you need to do for both of you. No right or wrong answers I'm afraid. But you will know you couldn't have tried harder whatever happens.

 

[splashgirl45]

I think the trouble is that Bog looks amazing, eyes bright and very alert , he looks very healthy BUT you and the vets know there is a problem and it’s only by discussing with them that you can come to the right decision. I knew when it was time for my cushings mare but I did get the vet to look at her just so I knew I had done everything possible and I think you need to have it very clear in your head before you go ahead with PTS, so you can carry on with life knowing you have done the maximum. Maybe your original plan of PTS before winter is the way to go especially as he is so happy where he is ..xx

 

[Michen]

I think the trouble is that Bog looks amazing, eyes bright and very alert , he looks very healthy BUT you and the vets know there is a problem and it’s only by discussing with them that you can come to the right decision. I knew when it was time for my cushings mare but I did get the vet to look at her just so I knew I had done everything possible and I think you need to have it very clear in your head before you go ahead with PTS, so you can carry on with life knowing you have done the maximum. Maybe your original plan of PTS before winter is the way to go especially as he is so happy where he is ..xx

Honestly I’ve discussed it but the only one giving me a strong opinion is my vet friend who’s not his vet. Because she can, as a friend, but with no professional spin on said friendship other than being the one to PTS if it’s planned. His two main vets (one who is a friend) are not giving a consensus either way. Because there isn’t one, they can’t predict how it’s going to go, they know that I am probably the only one who knows Boggle well enough to possibly be able to know.

It’s not like we know for sure what’s even wrong or have a timeline on progression or any way to measure his pain, so I really don’t think anyone is going to tell me as a vet what to do.

My friend vet is adamant I should PTS I think more for me than anything, she is very worried it’ll end up being emergent and she may not be able to get there to do it herself or anyone I know and it could be very traumatic.

 

[Equi]

As others have said, you don’t know the weight you are carrying until that weight is no longer there. Grief is a different kind of weight.

He will not get better but he could either get very worse or just tick along. We can never know.

But I personally would not want to be moving him drastically far when he has had a wonderful summer and been his happiest.

 

[Sandstone1]

Very very hard place to be. It is only you that can make the choice. You know him better than anyone. Only thing is can you have a back up plan? You say you have 8 weeks before the weather may change. Something could happen in the next few weeks to make you make up your mind. If not maybe have moving him on the back burner? I do not think I could pts a horse whos well and happy and you have to think how doing so will effect you. Maybe he will make the choice easy for you before then but if not maybe plan to move him? Only other thing is can you get a mobile home or camper to stay where you have him now? Probably completely out of the question with bad weather etc but only thing I can think of..Im sorry you are in this position.

 

[AandK]

This is so very hard, and it’s understandable you’re undecided about what is best.
IMO, as it’s a neurological issue rather than something that will see a gradual decline of some sorts, it's highly likely any decline would be acute, and therefore likely to be a distressing emergency. With this in mind and the approaching weather conditions, it would be kindest on him (and you in the long term) to PTS. This is of course my opinion, and I understand how this is not a choice to be taken lightly.
Take care of yourself.

 

[YourValentine]

I'm in the same situation as you. My boy looks a million dollars, and is so happy at the moment. But this is meant to be his last summer and PTS come winter.

He could, with management winter ok and probably happily do another summer. But I'm not sure how much underlying pain he is masking, as he doesn't look right some days, and he is only going to get worse not better with time.

I know in my head PTS this autumn is the right thing, but my heart is breaking at the thought. Watching him playing with his friend in the sun atm really doesn't help.

But I need to stick to my guns or come Jan I might be making the call wishing I done it 3 months earlier. But it is complete shit.

Life is a bit shit in a few ways atm and loosing him isn't going to help. But I know it's the right call for him. Even if I could get him through another winter he wouldn't be as happy all winter as he is now.

 

[Michen]

I could possibly live in the house where I lived last winter, which would be walkable to the barn. But I am intending to be out of the USA for 3-4 weeks in December, and again whilst it's fine if I'm there, I can't rely on grooms to get there in bad weather. I could not go away in December but I still have to travel for work, that's unavoidable.

It feels totally impossible, I've been extremely practical about it the last few months and very steadfast in my decision. Then yesterday I went to him having not seen him for 6 days and he was so... Bog. Pushy, perky, funny little nutter. I drove away from the barn and felt this huge wave of nausea and had to pull over as I thought I was going to be physically sick at the thought of ending the life of a horse who looked like that.

Again, I don't know if this is my head telling me now is not the right time, or just a normal reaction as the summer starts to feel like it's ending.

 

[YourValentine]

I think it's a normal reaction. If I ignore the deadline I'm fine. The minute I think about it I'm bawling. So I'm largely ignoring time for now.

 

[Equi]

It sounds more like anxiety over the inevitable. It’s going to feel like that until he actually does go..hence the weight. Dreading something is often much worse than the thing itself. That’s unlikely to go away even if you decide not to pts this time round.

 

[Upthecreek]

The way I see it, the one and only thing you can do to make it less bad, is to have control over the timing and make sure his last moments are not spent in pain and panic. There are so many questions that nobody can answer. Is he pain free? How long will he stay as well as he is now? How will the winter affect him?, that ‘wait and see’ seems very risky. You are never going to feel good about the decision and feel like it’s 100% the right thing to do, but weigh that up against an emergency situation in winter and the vet can’t get to him. Would you be able to forgive yourself? I’m so sorry you are facing this. It hurts like hell.

 

[Michen]

It’s also the possibility I’m prematurely ending his life if he would be perfectly happy for years yet. And ending a life of a horse in such good spirits. F***.

I mean any horse can go in pain because something awful has happened. It’s just that the risk is higher with him.

 

[Upthecreek]

For me the certainty of a peaceful end and happy memories outweighs the possibility of a few more months, or maybe even years, when there is no chance of recovery and a high chance of an acute episode or rapid deterioration. Any horse can go in pain, but the extreme weather is a complicating factor that would really add to my stress once it arrives.

 

[Equi]

It’s an impossible situation. As I said I wouldn’t be moving him, but I don’t think I could also let him go. I’d want to try the winter first and see. But then I have never lived anywhere with major weather and have only once not been able to get to the yard cause of snow (and I could have if I really wanted to..but others offered to do the horse and he didn’t have any special requirements)