Boggle- USA bound!

[Sheep]

I don’t think I have anything useful to offer but I just wanted to say… in the many years you’ve been here on HHO, I know you’ve had a huge amount of horsy heartache, even thinking back your boy Torres quite a few years ago now.

One thing that I think you have always done very admirably is make good decisions for your horses at the right time. This situation is maybe more complex. I think that either decision isn’t wrong, based on how he is right now and how things are likely to go for him in future.

If your heart needs to hang on to him just a little while longer, then do that… if your head knows it’s time to let go, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that either. He has, and has had, a brilliant life with you and you evidently give him your all.

Btw, I was so pleased to see your insta diving pics. I hope going there has helped you reclaim your love for it.

Big hugs either way. Boggle is a very lucky little lad.

 

[Michen]

I don’t think I have anything useful to offer but I just wanted to say… in the many years you’ve been here on HHO, I know you’ve had a huge amount of horsy heartache, even thinking back your boy Torres quite a few years ago now.

One thing that I think you have always done very admirably is make good decisions for your horses at the right time. This situation is maybe more complex. I think that either decision isn’t wrong, based on how he is right now and how things are likely to go for him in future.

If your heart needs to hang on to him just a little while longer, then do that… if your head knows it’s time to let go, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that either. He has, and has had, a brilliant life with you and you evidently give him your all.

Btw, I was so pleased to see your insta diving pics. I hope going there has helped you reclaim your love for it.

Big hugs either way. Boggle is a very lucky little lad.

Thank you, that means a lot. I’ve had a lot of heartache but also the most wonderful 8 years with Bog even with all this. I have been so hung up on the what ifs lately. What if I hadn’t moved him to America. Maybe he’d still be healthy and normal.

But it’s a pointless thought process, it could be that moving him to America gave me two more years with him that I wouldn’t have had in the UK. Maybe if he’d stayed there, something else would have happened to take him from me much earlier. Who knows.

Thank you re diving! Though I’ve only dived cenotes since… not the ocean. I plan to soon though

 

[Nicnac]

You don't need to make the decision today, this week or this month. Come home and remove yourself from the situation for a couple of weeks which may give you some space to be objective and let your head take over.

Whatever you decide you can be sure that you are making the best decision for him as you always do.

 

[druid]

You'll know the day he or you is ready to let go. It doesn't have to be set in stone

 

[myheartinahoofbeat]

So sorry you are having to deal with this. You know him so well and think about his care so deeply you will get this right.
Just a thought, you worry about moving him to somewhere like California for the winter. Could you do it in stages? Take him a third or quarter of the way then rest him for several weeks and so on. I know it would be a logistical nightmare but you are so resourceful. If you thought it was the right thing to do, you’d find a way.
This last sentence rings true for PTS too.

 

[PaulineW]

Would it be possible to rent an actual barn for winter? Like UK farmers do in the winter for cows, so they can move about but indoors, protected from the worst weather.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

From my view I would PTS.

I had this type of choice with my WB, she was 13, retired 2 ish years due to really really bad KS ( her spine was pure white no gaps) she was intermitantly lame on her left hind stifle, we xrayed and it showed arthritis.

Vet gave me options of managing with bute but this could mask her stiffness and put more pressure on the joint for it to break down. Or just bute when its cold etc.

Or PTS due to the fact we dont know how she would cope this winter when fields are shut if it gets wet, would she get stuck down in her stable etc.....

She looked amazing, glowing coat, perfect weight, happy with her field companion etc.

I chose to PTS one lovely sunny august day. I couldnt, for me, deal with the worry of her going down hill and not being able to get up in the field or stable.

I miss her like mad, she was such a stunning horse, but I do not regret my choice.

Love and Hugs

Edit for spelling

 

[Michen]

So sorry you are having to deal with this. You know him so well and think about his care so deeply you will get this right.
Just a thought, you worry about moving him to somewhere like California for the winter. Could you do it in stages? Take him a third or quarter of the way then rest him for several weeks and so on. I know it would be a logistical nightmare but you are so resourceful. If you thought it was the right thing to do, you’d find a way.
This last sentence rings true for PTS too.

Yes I could or even 3/4 hours a day over a week. The drive time in total is 15.5 hours.

I’m just not sure even a few hours in a trailer is a fair ask, but then, if he’s able to leap around the way he does he’s probably ok standing on a trailer.

I think if I did that I’d intend it to be one way and just move him permanently and myself.

 

[Roxylola]

Honestly, for a horse who's not going to get better, I'd let him go. I did it many years ago with a 9 year old sports horse. I cried every day for over a year afterwards. I often wish the treatments and knowledge around now were around then, I can't talk about it in much detail without breaking down now almost 20 years later and I've never owned another horse (I've cared for and shared my life with them but never one that's truly exclusively mine).
But knowing he was only going to decline I opted to pts while he was relatively sound fit and well. I've never regretted that choice - I wish I could have fixed him, when I say I'd have burned the world for him I mean it wholeheartedly. I very nearly bankrupted myself trying to fix him and would have if it had meant he'd be well.
At the time he was well and happy but I still don't regret the decision no matter how much it's hurt me. Sorry though it's a rotten situation with no easy choices

 

[Michen]

This is certainly helping work through scenarios in my head. It’s winter that’s hastening this decision. If winter wasn’t a thing, I wouldn’t be considering Pts until I felt it was more of an obvious thing to do.

So I guess that leaves the question as to whether I think it’s fair or reasonable to try and remove the winter element, and that puts me back in the circle of uncertainty

I mean the options are there, if I travelled him there are wonderful irrigated pasture boarding opportunities in Cali.

 

[nutjob]

If you're going to be unavoidably away even for a couple of days and there's no very local emergency cover if the horses are snowed in then surely staying put is not an option.

I do agree with you that I wouldn't leave any horse, let alone one with issues at a yard too far away for frequent visits but I don't see stabling over night and a small but daily turnout area as a big problem for the winter and worth it for the peace of mind of someone on site in bad weather. All being well you can return to where you are currently in Spring.

For a pts decision, there's a difference in quality of life between an occasional twinge and continuous pain. If he needs to be on omeprazole continuously this doesn't seem normal unless it's to do with issues from other meds, but maybe it's something the vet can comment on.

It's a horrible situation to be in but I think you will come to the right decision. You have a bit more time to consider options.

 

[Michen]

If you're going to be unavoidably away even for a couple of days and there's no very local emergency cover if the horses are snowed in then surely staying put is not an option.

I do agree with you that I wouldn't leave any horse, let alone one with issues at a yard too far away for frequent visits but I don't see stabling over night and a small but daily turnout area as a big problem for the winter and worth it for the peace of mind of someone on site in bad weather. All being well you can return to where you are currently in Spring.

For a pts decision, there's a difference in quality of life between an occasional twinge and continuous pain. If he needs to be on omeprazole continuously this doesn't seem normal unless it's to do with issues from other meds, but maybe it's something the vet can comment on.

It's a horrible situation to be in but I think you will come to the right decision. You have a bit more time to consider options.

No staying put is just not an option. Steroids are hard on the stomach re omeprazole or it could be pain making him uncomfortable in his gut. I just don’t know.

 

[GypsGal1718]

I would try moving him down the mountain if you could find somewhere with good facilities for him. Out of state might be a bit much but talk to your vet and taking stops to let him stretch his legs would help. I would try before you think about pts but if he tells you it’s time to go listen

 

[gunnergundog]

If staying put isn’t an option then you either PTS where he is in a planned way or you move him. A 15 hour road trip sounds hard for him, even if broken down into stages. What about flying him? Colorado to California should only be a couple of hours. Yes, you will have a short road trip on top either end but you should be able to complete the entire journey in one go.

 

[I'm Dun]

Hes a good traveller, it would be a permanent move and could be done in stages. Make the first stage a short run of a couple of hours. If he doesn't cope, give him a night out at grass and then PTS. If he does cope then carry on. You can stop at any point. But given how well he looks and feels and how much he means to you, combined with winter being the issue, then do it.

And I think I would discount the opinion of your vet friend, not because she's not a good vet, but because she's your friend and she's trying to protect you. I would say exactly the same to a close friend of mine as I'd want to save them a traumatic experience even if it meant letting the horse go early. I don't think I'd be weighing it up as a vet, I'd be talking as a friend.

 

[Nonjumper]

2) @j1ffy makes a good point about your own well being. I didn't realise the stress that my 6yr long sick note was causing me until the day he was pts. I was devastated, even more so because I let 2 go that day, but what I wasn't expecting was a huge weight lifting. I didn't even know I'd been carrying it.

^^^ This.

When I had a mare PTS after months of tests, vets, and the "do I PTS now or keep her as a field ornament until she becomes too lame" general procrastinating, it felt like a millstone had been lifted off my shoulders once the deed was done. The nagging headache disappeared, and I honestly felt a deep relief. It was over. I'd no idea just how much stress the whole thing had caused me.

 

[setterlover]

It would be a lot easier if it was an older horse ( 20 years plus) as realistically how much longer do they have most horses get to their mid twenties.
I had my 25 year old cob PTS as what he had was incurable and seemed to start progressing much more quickly and also had become a big financial burden ( around £1000 a month and rising with injections twice a month progressing to weekly)with a prospect of no cure better to let him go on a warm sunny day with grass in his mouth than struggling on.
It didn't mean I loved him any less in fact it was because I loved him I let him go with dignity.
BUT at 25 a much easier decision and yes a huge burden of worry was lifted from me.

 

[Britestar]

If you have the ability to physically move you both to another state with more favourable winters, they I would probably give that a go, to remove that what if.

 

[Upthecreek]

I wish that animals could tell us when they are uncomfortable and their life is no longer worth living. I’ve experienced several devastating losses, humans and animals, and my heart wasn’t ever ready to let go, even when my head made it make sense, but that’s the pain of loving. There is never enough time.

You have to weigh up the risks of moving him and make a decision you can live with. The truth is that you are putting off the inevitable, but if it’s worth it to you to do that for the chance of more time together, you should probably try. Some people can’t live with ‘what ifs’ and it tortures them. Just remember that you matter too and you have a life to live after this, however things pan out.

 

[JGC]

From the point of view of having horses in the Alps, so having lived with snowy winters, cold and freezing roads with the horses for a few years (and I know we don't get as much as you do), I wouldn't want him in the area, even boarding slightly lower and out in a paddock in the day. It's a hard climate when they're not quite right and they go downhill SO quickly. And it would be so much worse if he was boarding nearish, but you got snowed in anyway and he went downhill, or you were away.

I'm not sure I would trailer him to warmer climes, given the stress it puts on them, especially neck for balancing, but for me personally I would be reducing my options to PTS or a one-way move to CA or wherever. My head would lean towards PTS, but it's always easier to say than do. I think you had already made that decision in the spring, but it's sometimes so impossible to do when the day comes.

Sorry, I'm not sure I'm helping, but I think in some ways, you're trying to decide between the least terrible options, when they're all pretty terrible, and those are worse kind of decisions to make.

 

[ElleSkywalker]

Would flying him to CA be an option?

 

[SEL]

I really feel for you - its just awful when they are so well but you know it could go downhill quickly.

if you looked at places in CA what is available?

 

[Michen]

There’s lovely places available with grass pastures but I’d need to actually go see them as looks can be deceiving. Is it all day turnout, or just a few hours, that kind of thing. They are $$$$$ as it’s irritated.

I hadn’t thought about flying him I know people fedex horses to Florida for the winter season, I assume the same can be done for California and you have to find a group to charter a plane. Goodness knows how much it costs.

I think in my head I’m discounting the long travelling, I’d need to do it alone to do it over a long period (people here don’t get much PTo, I can’t ask a friend that) or hire a groom. I’d be very frightened if something happened, or he wasn’t coping and I was half way and had to get a vet to PTS on the side of the road, it would be horrendous. I’d feel so, so guilty. The thought of it is already stressing me out.

The other element is that the places with grass turnout are more inland and can get very hot, 40 degrees wouldn’t be uncommon. He’s not a pony that struggles in the heat but it’s something to consider.

I think I’d like to hear back from the vet about whether it’s worth doing neck injections and where, and try and get him more 100% comfortable (no reaction to itching etc) and therefore perhaps he has a truer chance of a long retirement, and weaned off omeprazole to prove he’s not in daily pain, over the next couple of months. I think that would tell me whether it’s worth going to such effort if he has years left. I think it would also be worth pinging a nerve block on his feet to see whether he’s still very ataxic when they are blocked. Maybe all that will give me a truer picture of his longevity and that will help guide me.

 

[splashgirl45]

There’s lovely places available with grass pastures but I’d need to actually go see them as looks can be deceiving. Is it all day turnout, or just a few hours, that kind of thing. They are $$$$$ as it’s irritated.

I hadn’t thought about flying him I know people fedex horses to Florida for the winter season, I assume the same can be done for California and you have to find a group to charter a plane. Goodness knows how much it costs.

I think in my head I’m discounting the long travelling, I’d need to do it alone to do it over a long period (people here don’t get much PTo, I can’t ask a friend that) or hire a groom. I’d be very frightened if something happened, or he wasn’t coping and I was half way and had to get a vet to PTS on the side of the road, it would be horrendous. I’d feel so, so guilty. The thought of it is already stressing me out.

The other element is that the places with grass turnout are more inland and can get very hot, 40 degrees wouldn’t be uncommon. He’s not a pony that struggles in the heat but it’s something to consider.

I think I’d like to hear back from the vet about whether it’s worth doing neck injections and where, and try and get him more 100% comfortable (no reaction to itching etc) and therefore perhaps he has a truer chance of a long retirement, and weaned off omeprazole to prove he’s not in daily pain, over the next couple of months. I think that would tell me whether it’s worth going to such effort if he has years left. I think it would also be worth pinging a nerve block on his feet to see whether he’s still very ataxic when they are blocked. Maybe all that will give me a truer picture of his longevity and that will help guide me.

That sounds like a good plan and should make the way forward a bit clearer. Good luck

 

[Michen]

Thank you everyone for being the best sounding board as always. A quick google tells me flying to CA not all that tricky, I hadn't even considered it.

There is a lot to consider but I have some time and first and foremost I will spend some more money with the vet and let the science guide me more, I think I will feel a LOT better if I've got some more backing around what I decide whether it's PTS, move here, move out of state etc.

Clever Boggle, heard I may have a budget for a new horse at some point and redirects the money to himself As palo said, he's got me right where he wants me, but he's done that from the moment he got off the lorry from ireland at the M4 chievely service station!

 

[SEL]

There’s lovely places available with grass pastures but I’d need to actually go see them as looks can be deceiving. Is it all day turnout, or just a few hours, that kind of thing. They are $$$$$ as it’s irritated.

I hadn’t thought about flying him I know people fedex horses to Florida for the winter season, I assume the same can be done for California and you have to find a group to charter a plane. Goodness knows how much it costs.

I think in my head I’m discounting the long travelling, I’d need to do it alone to do it over a long period (people here don’t get much PTo, I can’t ask a friend that) or hire a groom. I’d be very frightened if something happened, or he wasn’t coping and I was half way and had to get a vet to PTS on the side of the road, it would be horrendous. I’d feel so, so guilty. The thought of it is already stressing me out.

The other element is that the places with grass turnout are more inland and can get very hot, 40 degrees wouldn’t be uncommon. He’s not a pony that struggles in the heat but it’s something to consider.

I think I’d like to hear back from the vet about whether it’s worth doing neck injections and where, and try and get him more 100% comfortable (no reaction to itching etc) and therefore perhaps he has a truer chance of a long retirement, and weaned off omeprazole to prove he’s not in daily pain, over the next couple of months. I think that would tell me whether it’s worth going to such effort if he has years left. I think it would also be worth pinging a nerve block on his feet to see whether he’s still very ataxic when they are blocked. Maybe all that will give me a truer picture of his longevity and that will help guide me.

I think that's a plan

It was loading my old boy up with bute after the hunt came past which made me realise how much happier he was up to his eyeballs on drugs - which made me realise that wasn't a situation that could go on for long and almost gave me permission to make that awful call to the vets.

I'm not a PTS just because a horse can't perform a job or is causing me anxiety type of person, but I am if its a welfare issue and I think you need to be clear in your mind if he can retire (somewhere if not current location) or if its just not going to be an option for him.

 

[Michen]

I think that's a plan

It was loading my old boy up with bute after the hunt came past which made me realise how much happier he was up to his eyeballs on drugs - which made me realise that wasn't a situation that could go on for long and almost gave me permission to make that awful call to the vets.

I'm not a PTS just because a horse can't perform a job or is causing me anxiety type of person, but I am if its a welfare issue and I think you need to be clear in your mind if he can retire (somewhere if not current location) or if its just not going to be an option for him.

That makes sense. And I agree. I would never, ever choose having a shiny new ridden horse over having Boggle. He gives me far more pleasure just to look at over the stable door and laugh at his Boggleness than any horse could give me under saddle.

S*** though, if he moves to boarding of some sort I'd really need to deferalise him a bit. He's probably only had a headcollar on a couple of times this summer for when he's being shod, and his kicking the heck out of the stable door to summon me over is out of control. Oops lol.

 

[Michen]

Goodness ME that damn pony!!!!! He just slipped under his stall chain and usually he just goes to the front of the barn to graze and I quietly collect him on the odd occasion this happens but this time he decided to gallop flat out around the property bucking and squealing, jumped off the bridge that goes over the stream, went straight down the trail that leads onto a really busy road but decided half way he didn’t want to leave Helo, so came back to gallop around the property some more. It took me and the house owners brother and my neighbour to convince him this was not a good game!

He scared the heck out of poor Jay, who lives in the house and is not horsey . And terrified me half to death.

Like he was proving a point in every single way he could

 

[Goldenstar]

That’s sounds like Fatty when ever I though oh mmm perhaps he seemed to get himself loose and gallop round the school bucking ( that was his favourite thing ) .
You just need to spend sometime working through everything .
Then at the right moment you will see what you need to do .

 

[Peglo]

Are you sure he’s not reading HHO?

Hope your heart rate has gone down.