ThreeFurs
Well-Known Member
Hah. indeed.
Story yesterday from a Canadian horse site on the whistleblower; comments in the footer are worth a look. https://horsesport.com/cuckson-report-1/youtuber-outed-dujardin-whistleblower-trainer-herself/
CDJ withdrawn from paris
- Thread starter Zoeypxo
- Start date
Story yesterday from a Canadian horse site on the whistleblower; comments in the footer are worth a look. https://horsesport.com/cuckson-report-1/youtuber-outed-dujardin-whistleblower-trainer-herself/
AmyMay
Situation normal
Can’t see any comments.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
Interesting
Archangel
Normal, 10 cats ago
A comment about an alleged horse deal that bankrupted AD plus comment about welfare of her own horses.
Then a comment from our own HM about alleged revenge.
Elno
Well-Known Member
Also can't see the comments, but regarding the horse deal: I've seen this on the thread about CDJ on another large forum where someone posted a picture of a letter that supposedly was sent to a newspaper? (can't really remember and do not feel inclined to sift through hundreds of posts in search for it, but it's there if someone want to read).
Anyway, apparently she sold a woman a very expensive PSG horse called Tobias claiming he was a good beginners horse and that even her children would be able to ride it. The horse showed later to be nowhere near that and the pro rider (whose barn the horse was stabled at) strongly advised against the owner to ride it so it was sent to another pro. The horse kicked the second pro rider/trainer really, really badly, and since AD refused to take the horse back a law suit followed which AD lost.
Also, I think I remember this AD woman from when she used to work with that dressage rider with a gorgeous frieser stallion from NZ or Australia? Natasha something?
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Reacher
Well-Known Member
Natasha Althoff
Ratface
Well-Known Member
My horse is old and has been retired for two years. He lives a life of luxury and ease. Whatever his health and welfare needs are, they are immediately met out of my pocket. If I die before he does, I have ensured that this continues until his natural death or he needs to be pts. I go without some necessities to ensure this happens. The same goes for the cat. They owe me nothing. I owe them everything.
misst
Well-Known Member
I have kept 2 horses unridden at considerable expense. They owed us nothing and were loved deeply. I wish they were still here. But I live in an expensive county in the SE and can't afford to buy land or rent myself a private yard even if I could find one. I am not buying another horse as I don't ride anymore and nor does my daughter. I'd happily have a couple of minis as pets but the land and money problems are prohibitive. There's a difference between continuing to own and care for horses youve had who retire or are no longer ridable and buying/taking on new unridable horses. I'm pleased people can afford 9 horses but very very very few people in Surrey could afford to do this. I am not prepared to take on an animal who could live for 20+ years with no certainty of providing adequate local housing and grazing.
scats
Well-Known Member
I keep 2 essentially as pets. Polly because the wheels fell off and she has various issues, and Meg. My monthly livery bill is pretty hefty considering I only ride 1 of my 3.
Would I keep horses if riding got banned? Well I’d see these 3 out, but I wouldn’t buy another horse.
You could argue I got Meg as a pet (tiny pony), which I did. But I got her because I have 2 mares anyway and an extra companion was going to be useful to me. That said, If I had my own land, I’d probably always have a couple of ‘Megs’ on it, she’s cute and easy.
Would I keep horses if riding got banned? Well I’d see these 3 out, but I wouldn’t buy another horse.
You could argue I got Meg as a pet (tiny pony), which I did. But I got her because I have 2 mares anyway and an extra companion was going to be useful to me. That said, If I had my own land, I’d probably always have a couple of ‘Megs’ on it, she’s cute and easy.
Pedantic
Well-Known Member
And there you have it in a nutshell, "selective" treatment over the exact same thing, animal abuse, two excuses right there just for starters, fear of a particular section of society, and the lack of education excuse, so as always let's target the easy option, lone white female, but then I suppose to be fair, and put things into balance, if she had been head of the Post office, she would be hanging onto £3 million bonus and a fat pension.
conniegirl
Well-Known Member
I have 2 currently Cobbus who is only lightly hacked to keep his weight down due to age and injury.
And Dottie who is young and was supposed to be for Ellie to ride but Ellie no longer interested and i’m paying a girl on the yard to ride her whilst i steel myself to sell her.
If a riding ban happened then
Cobbus i would definitely keep for the rest of his days, ridden or not. Though those days would be considerably less then if i could ride him as he would go down with lami fairly quickly
Dottie im not so sure about. I think i’d try and sell her as she is the size that someone may want as a pet but there will likely be thousands trying the same.
And Dottie who is young and was supposed to be for Ellie to ride but Ellie no longer interested and i’m paying a girl on the yard to ride her whilst i steel myself to sell her.
If a riding ban happened then
Cobbus i would definitely keep for the rest of his days, ridden or not. Though those days would be considerably less then if i could ride him as he would go down with lami fairly quickly
Dottie im not so sure about. I think i’d try and sell her as she is the size that someone may want as a pet but there will likely be thousands trying the same.
DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
Yes for sure.
I was out competing last year, in a dressage test at the end of the day so the lorry park was quiet. I was out with my pony who doesn't like indoor arenas and takes longer than a test to settle and I was trying to see if we could overcome it, so was mainly focused on trying to keep her completely chilled. So I wasn't particularly aware of what was going on around me as I tacked up, got her out of the box and walked to the warmup, but I did notice a tiny slip of a young woman wrestling with a trying to get a huge warm blood on a big box. I noticed only because she had a pressure halter on him and between him dragging her and her pulling him, there was absolutely no release in the pressure of it, so I fleetingly thought 'well that looks unpleasant for all concerned'.
I then went into the warmup and my OH, who is largely non-horsey, particularly in reference to the competitive scene, stood by the edge of the warmup, up a small bank from the lorry park. After mooching around the warmup for a bit I came to the edge of the arena to see OH absolutely incandescent with rage. "that woman needs reporting or something" he said angrily to me. Evidently the mother of this young woman had taken over the loading attempt and had given the horse a beating with a dressage whip. One of the equestrian centre staff members had gone over (presumably to try and intervene) and had (far too) diplomatically asked her if she needed help. But she had sent them away with a flea in their ear and carried on. The horse was on the lorry by this point there was nothing I could do in that moment really (I did report it to the centre later but doubt anything came of it).
But the look in my OHs face in that moment as I looked solemnly and silently back at him... He realised what my silence meant. That this was not hugely unusual, and that it was unlikely anything would be done. I can still see the disappoint in his face, and feel the shame that I felt of being any part of this by association.
PoppyAnderson
Well-Known Member
Abuse is everywhere. I could name half a dozen well known names where I've seen awful treatment. There's a showjumper at our yard who rips the back teeth out of his lovely big chestnut horse. I've seen an Irish Hickstead winner bring his horse back to the stable covered in blood and welt marks, the sj chef d'equipe take a bridle into a stable and beat her horse repeatedly round the head with it, a particularly nasty showing producer in Lancashire tie his horses heads down for hours, another dealer in Cheshire starve a horse to emaciation....on and on it goes. Most of us will have the same stories. Even now, on here, an anonymous forum, I'm still shying away from naming names and I said nothing at the time either. Why? Why are we so reluctant to name people or speak up? What are we supposed to do though. Nothing would be done and nothing changes.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
Fear?That's a nice little dog you have there.Shame if anything happened to it.A vet I heard of complained at a local show.His tyres were slashed and dog dirt pushed through his letter box.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
That is one of the problems.You can complain but even where there is proof nothing is ever done.Yes for sure.
I was out competing last year, in a dressage test at the end of the day so the lorry park was quiet. I was out with my pony who doesn't like indoor arenas and takes longer than a test to settle and I was trying to see if we could overcome it, so was mainly focused on trying to keep her completely chilled. So I wasn't particularly aware of what was going on around me as I tacked up, got her out of the box and walked to the warmup, but I did notice a tiny slip of a young woman wrestling with a trying to get a huge warm blood on a big box. I noticed only because she had a pressure halter on him and between him dragging her and her pulling him, there was absolutely no release in the pressure of it, so I fleetingly thought 'well that looks unpleasant for all concerned'.
I then went into the warmup and my OH, who is largely non-horsey, particularly in reference to the competitive scene, stood by the edge of the warmup, up a small bank from the lorry park. After mooching around the warmup for a bit I came to the edge of the arena to see OH absolutely incandescent with rage. "that woman needs reporting or something" he said angrily to me. Evidently the mother of this young woman had taken over the loading attempt and had given the horse a beating with a dressage whip. One of the equestrian centre staff members had gone over (presumably to try and intervene) and had (far too) diplomatically asked her if she needed help. But she had sent them away with a flea in their ear and carried on. The horse was on the lorry by this point there was nothing I could do in that moment really (I did report it to the centre later but doubt anything came of it).
But the look in my OHs face in that moment as I looked solemnly and silently back at him... He realised what my silence meant. That this was not hugely unusual, and that it was unlikely anything would be done. I can still see the disappoint in his face, and feel the shame that I felt of being any part of this by association.
bonny
Well-Known Member
I think most well known people think what they are doing is ok and no one will question them anyway……I think if you see abuse get evidence, everyone has a mobile phone and publicise it. What’s happened to Charlotte shows what can be done but nothing will change if others won’t stand up and be counted.
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
The one thing we can all be sure of us that if no-one does or says anything *at the time* , nothing will be done, nothing will change.
I think the fact that almost everyone has a decent camera on a mobile phone could make a difference.
It can be very difficult in the moment to directly challenge someone who is already behaving aggressively and it certainly isn't wise to 'name and shame' online without supporting evidence.
But if any of us see questionable behaviour around horses, now, it will be easy to film supporting evidence and pass it to the relevant governing bodies, or even to a journalist, or directly to SM.
DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
Yeah, but I could have made a fuss. I could have put my horse away and caused a ruckus. Maybe I will in future. Would it make a difference to that specific person, no, but in lieu of organisations being willing to do anything meaningful, maybe it is just down to those of us that don't want to be associated with this nonsense to start making and almighty fuss (and not just on social media)
cauda equina
Well-Known Member
It's difficult when those in authority don't take the necessary action to deal with abuse though, and then people are back to the fear that as a whistleblower they'll be treated worse than the offender
And yes I know there's a lot of bile being directed at this particular WB but to sit on it for 2.5/4 years (whichever it was) and then drop it now, that's not wanting to prevent horse abuse or 'to save dressage'
Surely it's about something else, which may or may not come out
And yes I know there's a lot of bile being directed at this particular WB but to sit on it for 2.5/4 years (whichever it was) and then drop it now, that's not wanting to prevent horse abuse or 'to save dressage'
Surely it's about something else, which may or may not come out
equinerebel
Well-Known Member
Okay, I’ll bite.
She’s not alone, she has plenty of support. Minimising her actions because “there is worse abuse” is everywhere, including in this thread.
Her being white has absolutely nothing to do with this, other than the wider topic of a lack of diversity in equestrian sports. Which would be better suited to another thread.
Her being female is also irrelevant to this case. Mark Todd was equally criticised within the equestrian community. The difference is CDJ is a well known name amongst the non horsey public. MT isn’t.
meleeka
Well-Known Member
She had a lot further to fall than Mark Todd. He's not as well know outside the equestrian community and he was never touted as one of the good guys. Look how shocked most of us are about it, where nobody was that shocked by MT.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
When people say they have seen worse, it doesn't mean they approve of what Charlotte did, it just means they have seen worse.Julie Kaiser Hansen Taylor, the writer of the book "I can't bear to watch anymore" and very definately NOT a supporter of horse sports or Charlotte said though, that it made her sick to her stomache to see people who have done just the same and maybe worse throw Charlotte under a bus.Kirsten Alexa Hansen.A rider/trainer who trained under the Hungarian system.Very classical and not a fan of modern dressage said something quite similar.
scats
Well-Known Member
Most of the posts on social media minimising her actions have been along the lines of ‘how about people focus on that emaciated pony being kept in the back of beyond/that lame pony being ridden 6 days a week by an overweight rider’.
To me that’s a bit like saying ‘there no point doing anything to help that abused and stick-thin dog down the road because they still test on animals in labs’
So what? Ignoring one problem because there’s another just means nothing gets fixed.
Imagine if we took that stance with regards safeguarding children? Six year old Charlie gets a regular clobber off his Dad and it’s been witnessed by many and even caught on camera, but you know what, there’s tonnes of kids out there suffering worse so let’s not get too wound up about it…
To me that’s a bit like saying ‘there no point doing anything to help that abused and stick-thin dog down the road because they still test on animals in labs’
So what? Ignoring one problem because there’s another just means nothing gets fixed.
Imagine if we took that stance with regards safeguarding children? Six year old Charlie gets a regular clobber off his Dad and it’s been witnessed by many and even caught on camera, but you know what, there’s tonnes of kids out there suffering worse so let’s not get too wound up about it…
Arzada
Well-Known Member
Challenging whataboutery is surprisingly effective.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
ThreeFurs
Well-Known Member
Its been made public again on the original complainant's FB page against AF's horse dealing practices.
And btw Natasha Althoff-Kelly. Yes, she and AD conjoined in 'Your Riding Success' as a YouTube dressage riding advice business.
But back to the other issue, so in 2015/16 AD filed bankruptcy, after Victorian Magistrates Court found for the complainant, to the tune of AUD 79K.
And then AD left Victoria AUS for the UK, but I understand there were further complaints/cases before she left?
I'm super aware of admin our here on this forum, but in all honesty, this information above has been in the public, published realm for years, at the very least since the 'Tobias' purchaser KG, published an open letter in The Horse Magazine in 2016, about AF's horse dealing practices, and presumably the former passed it through her own legal advisers. Its an eight year old open letter, sent to warn other possible clients of AF, not through schadenfreude, but for genuine concern of other people's safety in buying horses from this person.
THM then gave AF/ or now AD, the right to reply on their pages to the original published letter, which she apparently didn't take up. All this is well documented.
But, as a dressage horse owner, rider, and an equine journalist writing on welfare issues, I still can't believe that we don't even know the name of that chestnut horse in the whipping video, we don't know how he how's doing, or how his mental stress is going, and that is the core of the problem, right here, its human, not horse centeredness.
We know everyone else's name, and everyone else's pack-drill, but not the name of this horse.
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sbloom
Well-Known Member
I think any whataboutery is unhelpful, but calling out people like Werth for their hypocrisy needs to be done, loudly. I know I'm a broken record, but this modern approach to training, compressing the front end in whatever way, is harmful, so if you're practising the extreme end of it, and defending/working with other abusers how DARE you add your name to the criticism.
equinerebel
Well-Known Member
But it takes away from CDJ’s behaviour. Like “yes, what she did is bad BUT there’s worse.”
We know there’s worse, but we’re talking about CDJ. It is a little dismissive to compare bad actions to worse actions.
That said, if her peers are calling her out but are hypocrites, that’s different.
Equi
Well-Known Member
I would assume the rider/owner are involved with the investigation and won’t want to be known publicly based on how much vitriol they are getting for not stopping the lesson. But I’m sure someone will out them eventually.
Upthecreek
Well-Known Member
Totally agree with what you are saying and I am wincing at some of the names who are criticising Charlotte. I think the problem is that the general public would not necessarily recognise the hauling in of the front end as abuse though, whereas someone repeatedly whacking a horse with a whip is obviously abuse. I have found elite dressage extremely uncomfortable to watch for many years and have often wondered how people can look at it and not see it for what it is.