CDJ withdrawn from paris

[Rowreach]

You're all still blaming the equipment when it's the people's use of it that needs to change.

 

[Red-1]

Crikey, just come home from being out of touch on a long holiday in Alaska to find this.

I too an shocked but then, not so. I have seen awful things happen in fancy yards. I sympathise with the girl not speaking out. I can see she would have been scared of repercussions.

I have said before that I have witnessed abuse, but without video I haven't reported as I don't suppose I would be taken seriously. Interestingly, to me, some names that have been held as good role models are those who I have seen things that have made me shudder.

I think it is widespread in riding schools onwards.

I hope this causes a change in what is acceptable for the future.

 

[Burnttoast]

You're all still blaming the equipment when it's the people's use of it that needs to change.

I'm doubting people's ability or willingness to change, I think. There'll always be someone who tries to gain an advantage in the equipment arms race by tweaking or tightening or whatever. Since this is supposed to be about demonstrating great skill in training, why not strip equipment back to the bare minimum as they go up the levels?

 

[magicmoments]

You're all still blaming the equipment when it's the people's use of it that needs to change.

I agree with you, but no noseband does give the horse a much greater chance of showing the contact for what it is. I do accept some horses prefer there to be less movement in the bit, which some bridle/nosebands combinations help.
If I remember correctly, the french link isn't as kind as it was originally thought. As you say any bit/bridle, etc can be used roughly.

 

[Rowreach]

I'm doubting people's ability or willingness to change, I think. There'll always be someone who tries to gain an advantage in the equipment arms race by tweaking or tightening or whatever. Since this is supposed to be about demonstrating great skill in training, why not strip equipment back to the bare minimum as they go up the levels?

One of the worst examples of abuse I’ve personally witnessed was from a celebrated liberty person, prior to a show performance so fairly public. God knows what they get up to at home.

Changing people is the only way.

 

[Rowreach]

I agree with you, but no noseband does give the horse a much greater chance of showing the contact for what it is. I do accept some horses prefer there to be less movement in the bit, which some bridle/nosebands combinations help.
If I remember correctly, the french link isn't as kind as it was originally thought. As you say any bit/bridle, etc can be used roughly.

A French link is potentially horrible. So are many bits thought to be “kind”.

 

[cauda equina]

They are not allowed to talk because dressage was to prepare a war horse. Talking to your horse on miitary service would give away your position, as it gave away Russian positions in WW2, or in earlier pitched battles the canon might be so loud that the horse would not hear the human voice - they needed to sound trumpets.
I talk all the time to my share horse, explaining to her that she has to do things in a certain way because that is what the YM says to do. I also inform her whether we are going to walk, trot or canter. She understands and I am idle.

That makes a mockery of dressage to music then - random cannon fire would make more sense
And if it's meant to be tactically correct why not do it in full battle kit including a sword

eta again - and letting women do it!
I could go on, but modern dressage is so far removed from mounted cavalry it seems absurd to retain a No Talking rule

 

[NinjaPony]

First year I’ve really not engaged with the dressage and I’ve been watching tennis instead. Really sad, but until judges stop rewarding tension and stress, I don’t see how anything will change

 

[southerncomfort]

First year I’ve really not engaged with the dressage and I’ve been watching tennis instead. Really sad, but until judges stop rewarding tension and stress, I don’t see how anything will change

Yep, yesterday I watched windsurfing, BMXing and air pistol shooting. Much more enjoyable to watch!

 

[Burnttoast]

One of the worst examples of abuse I’ve personally witnessed was from a celebrated liberty person, prior to a show performance so fairly public. God knows what they get up to at home.

Changing people is the only way.

But changing people is monumentally difficult and often not possible, whereas banning nosebands in competition is relatively very simple and a step forward for a lot of horses.

 

[Rowreach]

But changing people is monumentally difficult and often not possible, whereas banning nosebands in competition is relatively very simple and a step forward for a lot of horses.

You're treating a symptom.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

But changing people is monumentally difficult and often not possible, whereas banning nosebands in competition is relatively very simple and a step forward for a lot of horses.

And some people who would like change, for example to not have to use the double bridle at top levels, are not being allowed to.

The 'any equipment can be harmful' argument is unhelpful and a diversion. It is true obviously. But there are already lines (no electric spurs for example!) on equipment, and the challenge people are making is to redraw those lines.

 

[criso]

You're all still blaming the equipment when it's the people's use of it that needs to change.

Agreed.

French links aren't especially kind Mullen mouths are a bit chunky for a horse with a small mouth and big tongue and how would no nosebands work with my Micklem where it is Integrated and he prefers it done up.

I'm for a very wide variety of equipment as horses vary in what they go well in.

 

[Equi]

I think it needs balance. Allow people to compete without one if they want but they don’t get extra marks for being “kinder”

Some need a noseband (I’m thinking of the eventing where they were allowed a nose net, can’t attach that without a nose band)

But I don’t think nose bands are the biggest issue facing riders, they’re a distraction.

 

[Cloball]

The massive 'padding' that is added to the crank nosebands so they can be extra cranked.

I'm doubting people's ability or willingness to change, I think. There'll always be someone who tries to gain an advantage in the equipment arms race by tweaking or tightening or whatever. Since this is supposed to be about demonstrating great skill in training, why not strip equipment back to the bare minimum as they go up the levels?

 

[sbloom]

One of the worst examples of abuse I’ve personally witnessed was from a celebrated liberty person, prior to a show performance so fairly public. God knows what they get up to at home.

Changing people is the only way.

But changing people is monumentally difficult and often not possible, whereas banning nosebands in competition is relatively very simple and a step forward for a lot of horses.

You're treating a symptom.

There are benefits to the horse form some of the anatomical.bridles, for sure, and some rely on a noseband so although my instinct is to ban nosebands (as a traditional cavesson has absolutely no benefit to the horse) we do need to make no noseband an option. Signalling intent and motive is a strong nudge for change, and combined with more rigorous checking of tightness it's got to be a better way to go.

The massive 'padding' that is added to the crank nosebands so they can be extra cranked.

And arguably rubs on the fleshy cheeks sitting directly over the teeth. Sustainable Dressage has long fought the acceptance of the crank. Would be interesting to have dentists assess any correlation.

 

[Fransurrey]

Well, I think the devil is in the detail...if a horse completes a competition: endurance, eventing, polo, for example and veterinary intervention isn't required, then many would argue that a comfort drip is an effective and supportive post-work therapy and will guarantee rehydration etc. I think some event horses get comfort drips after the xc phase, in part to speed recovery before show jumping. I think one of the Olympic horses was given fluids like this after the xc this year.

I completely agree that anything IV should be seen as veterinary, rather than supportive but not everyone sees it that way. Some horses don't or won't drink sufficiently and syringing electrolytes might be difficult I suppose. There are plenty of people that think we should not be pushing horses to the extent that we need to consider that level of recovery therapy.

I don't think there has been a Golden Age of equestrianism but certainly horses were able to complete arduous competitions safely with only very simple, low levels of support to aid recovery in the past. I don't know what should be acceptable tbh: but for me IV therapy for recovery suggests too much has been asked for.

Anything IV is veterinary. In research a HO licence is required to administer injections. I'm allowed to do sub cutaneous as a pleb, but more than that comes under the Veterinary Surgeons Act.

 

[PapaverFollis]

The only way to change people would be to not have competitive horse sports I think. Not changing people but removing motivation.

Equipment rules and age limit rules etc would just mitigate some of the damage that can be caused to horses by competitive, ego and status driven people. But the most determined status seekers could ride rough shod over horse welfare regardless.

 

[equinerebel]

Is it still the rule in FEI competitions that doubles must be worn at GP?

 

[reynold]

Slightly aside from current thread focus but this is the statement Carl Hester made about CDJ and dressage yesterday

‘We’ve got to put the horses first’: Carl Hester on the sport’s challenges – and the Charlotte Dujardin video

British Olympic dressage rider Carl Hester has spoken about his former teammate Charlotte Dujardin following her suspension over a historic training video

www.horseandhound.co.uk

 

[Burnttoast]

You're treating a symptom.

Human nature is only treatable, not curable.

 

[splashgirl45]

A snaffle can be very harsh, it depends on the hands controlling it. I’m all for allowing no nosebands or no spurs but I don’t want nosebands and spurs banned . We seem to shout ban things rather than allowing an alternative.. and some bit less bridles can also be harsh so not as kind as some people think

 

[Burnttoast]

A snaffle can be very harsh, it depends on the hands controlling it. I’m all for allowing no nosebands or no spurs but I don’t want nosebands and spurs banned . We seem to shout ban things rather than allowing an alternative.. and some bit less bridles can also be harsh so not as kind as some people think

I'd be happy to see anything banned that can be (and usually is) used as an attempt to silence a horse's objections, and the noseband is top of that list at the moment. As @SaddlePsych'D said above, we already draw all sorts of lines re equipment. In my view it's keeping a piece of equipment, not banning it, that needs proper justification. No strongly competitive individual under pressure from owners and themselves is going to forego a noseband if they feel it will give them an advantage over the competition, so who is going to go for the no noseband option?

 

[HollyWoozle]

'Danish Olympic riders face harsh criticism: Images reveal potential horse abuse'

Danish Olympic riders face harsh criticism: Photos reveal potential horse abuse

Photos taken this year reveal Danish Olympic riders on horses in potentially »extreme pain«, according to several veterinarians and experts in the field. Based on the images, the Danish riders have now been reported for physical abuse. The Danish Equestrian Federation refuses to assess the...

idraetsmonitor.dk

 

[PapaverFollis]

Grand Prix tests ridden one handed with loops in the reins and no stirrups. Extra marks for no noseband. Extra marks for forgoing the bit and riding in a side pull or bridleless. Just, as you go through the levels give extra marks for the removal of anything you can hide behind.

Switch the status and kudos from being for flashy and big to being for quiet and beautiful.

We need to get away from the hypermobile warmbloods that are hard to sit on and can't collect and end up needing all the holding together and back towards actual riding horses.

I'm not sure if any of that would stop horses being Charlotted in private but it might gradually go that way. Hard to ride bridleless on a terrified horse I imagine.

It's kind of hard to understand what Charlotte was trying to achieve specifically, hence hard to think what woukd have stopped her doing it. I think there's a nefarious "ethos" thing... but don't know if you can seperate thar pressure pressure pressure ethos from general competitiveness.

 

[Burnttoast]

'Danish Olympic riders face harsh criticism: Images reveal potential horse abuse'

Danish Olympic riders face harsh criticism: Photos reveal potential horse abuse

Photos taken this year reveal Danish Olympic riders on horses in potentially »extreme pain«, according to several veterinarians and experts in the field. Based on the images, the Danish riders have now been reported for physical abuse. The Danish Equestrian Federation refuses to assess the...

idraetsmonitor.dk

I read that this morning and I think that the federations will only accept the front end of some poor horse's tongue dropping out of its mouth in the final halt as 'enough evidence'

 

[PapaverFollis]

And I 100% think in all seriousness that we need some age restriction. Limit the speed of progression. Reward long term soundness.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

A snaffle can be very harsh, it depends on the hands controlling it. I’m all for allowing no nosebands or no spurs but I don’t want nosebands and spurs banned . We seem to shout ban things rather than allowing an alternative.. and some bit less bridles can also be harsh so not as kind as some people think

I'm not looking for banning and agree re: snaffles and bit-less but what I do think that 'it's only as harsh as the hands using it' is not accurate and again a distraction. Yes harsh hands will make a snaffle harsh, but thinking about how levers/pulleys etc. work (physics people help me out here!), when a bit has a stronger action it takes much less force from the hands for the pressure the horses feels to be harsh.

ETA - I've no idea if I'm making sense with this!

 

[Burnttoast]

I'm not looking for banning and agree re: snaffles and bit-less but what I do think that 'it's only as harsh as the hands using it' is not accurate and again a distraction. Yes harsh hands will make a snaffle harsh, but thinking about how levers/pulleys etc. work (physics people help me out here!), when a bit has a stronger action it takes much less force from the hands for the pressure the horses feels to be harsh.

That's the whole principle behind 'bitting up'. Then some people get the idea that because they need to yank less in a leverage bit it must be nicer for the horse.

 

[twiggy2]

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