CDJ withdrawn from paris

[SaddlePsych'D]

That's the whole principle behind 'bitting up'. Then some people get the idea that because they need to yank less in a leverage bit it must be nicer for the horse.

I guess I'm going against my own point a bit here in that I don't think that is always a problem, if there is a release of that pressure it probably is better for the horse that they don't have constant yanking. I think where I was trying to go was 'any bit can be harsh' isn't enough for us to shut down thinking about it and go 'well have at it with any old thing because anything could be harsh'.

 

[NinjaPony]

The argument about using lighter hands in a double bridle is moot unless the reins are clearly held lightly with some slack in the curb. If both reins are very short than the argument becomes invalid. Again, time to start marking down riders in a double who have no slack in their curb rein.

I had a few lessons on a highly schooled PRE in both double and snaffle, in the double I had to be so mindful of having a light contact because you can really feel the difference having the two bits makes for a horse that is already light in the contact and takes the weight behind.

 

[tristars]

If the bhs could complie a say 2 page leaflet with what to aim for at intro and preliminary it would help, working in a 20 by 40 arena requires the horse to be capable of going around corners with a slight. Bend, similar to 20 meter circle, being able to do gradual transitions so no rough aids, horse not required to be fully on the. Bit, but showing its natural Inclination relevant to its conformation and training at the time of the test, ie may be above the bit at times, no pressure to maintain a consistent outline at all times, rider marks for stability of the seat which enables the rider hands to follow softly the horses variations of head carriage due to as yet inconsistent balance, and diagrams of how to ride the novice horse across the diagonal,where and how to prepare for the movement, etc etc etc, because dressage really starts at elementary, the lower classes should be.opportunities to practice and learn new skills and obtain feedback in a. competition setting with all the stresses and distractions. Marks for use of the leg without spurs, ie halt at the judges box and walk on to show response to soft leg aids, the novice competitor needs plenty of guideline

 

[Ceriann]

I am no expert but I thought CLDs test on Freestyle today was a better example. Horse looked relaxed, NIFV, giving frame by the rider, rather than the anchor like elbows you often see. I didn’t watch CF as haven’t liked her tests for a while. On change, I think there has to be a fundamental change to the view of what is desirable. The tools to achieve that can be changed but any tool in the wrong hands can result in abuse. I listened to the Discovery + commentator yesterday and was disappointed how out of touch with the common view she was around use of spurs, standards etc. this is what we need to change - the idea that the ideal and current thinking must be protected at all costs and any challenge to that is misunderstood.

 

[Burnttoast]

I guess I'm going against my own point a bit here in that I don't think that is always a problem, if there is a release of that pressure it probably is better for the horse that they don't have constant yanking. I think where I was trying to go was 'any bit can be harsh' isn't enough for us to shut down thinking about it and go 'well have at it with any old thing because anything could be harsh'.

Yes agree about the logical outcome being 'anything goes'. Strikes me that as horse people we do spend a lot of time talking quite euphemistically around the issues of how best to inflict a moderate amount of discomfort on horses to make them do what we want. I was watching the dressage this morning - the Spaniard on a grey basically yanking on the double in a completely undifferentiated way, his whole arm moving backwards, at the end of the extended trot and then his horse downing tools completely in the piaffe following, and found myself trying to imagine what's going on in the horse's mouth and brain. All that sensitive bone covered in a tissue of flesh and an organ as sensitive as the tongue. It's quite bizarre what we're prepared to do to have fun.

 

[paddy555]

But changing people is monumentally difficult and often not possible, whereas banning nosebands in competition is relatively very simple and a step forward for a lot of horses.

You're treating a symptom.

I agree you are treating a symptom so how do you treat the problem? Especially as these people don't see it as a problem.

 

[tristars]

Ah well yes. It is more likely to be single older women who have been lower earners

 

[cauda equina]

Eh? Are we back to childless cat ladies again?

 

[criso]

I agree you are treating a symptom so how do you treat the problem? Especially as these people don't see it as a problem.

Ultimately it can only be done by true lightness being marked up and unsubtle aids being marked down at all levels.

I saw a horse being yanked and booted do very well. They may have lost a bit in the collectives but technically the performed the movements in the right place and because it was a nice horse, it performed them well and got reasonable marks to come second. No excessive tack just a rough heavy handed rider.

 

[scats]

Eh? Are we back to childless cat ladies again?

That’s quite literally my life’s ambition.

 

[sbloom]

hypermobile warmbloods that are hard to sit on and can't collect and end up needing all the holding together and back towards actual riding horses

We need to stop breeding them for sure, but in the meantime that's not how they SHOULD be ridden, they should be developed through balance and stability, but that would take longer.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Something coming through in the commentary on the dressage today, which I posted about on the other thread and perhaps those in the know with judging can help here... there seems to be a lot of 'this horse is more/less X, Y, Z than that horse' which I sort of get but in another way am wondering if judges judge each horse against itself (i.e., this horse shows clear extension/collection in relation to its own steps rather than this horse clearly extended/collected but not as much as that other horse).

 

[sbloom]

The rules are that they are judges against a definitive, descriptive scale eg 5 is "sufficient" against the rules of how that movement should be done. Of course there is an element, human nature, of comparison, but it should be put aside.

 

[cauda equina]

That’s quite literally my life’s ambition.

And absolutely nothing wrong with that!

 

[Burnttoast]

That’s quite literally my life’s ambition.

Childless cat women are happier, it's been proven by science

 

[CarlungM]

On the subject of nosebands...are they absolutely necessary? I ask this because my horse broke his on a gate I was trying to undo, it was in pieces so I put the remains into my pocket and we carried on. Having no noseband made no difference to him at all so I never bothered to replace it.
Are they used only to keep the horse's mouth closed? I've often wondered about this since the gate incident, I'd always just blindly put the thing on, thinking it was important. How many other things get used just because we think we need them?

We never use nosebands. I don't find I have a need for them. My horses go well without them.

 

[Burnttoast]

And moving swiftly away from the cheerful subject of cat women (not Michelle Pfeiffer), I was (to my subsequent shame) only just becoming enlighted about what goes on in horse sport in 2014, so this case passed me by at the time, but this is what can happen when a horse is not allowed to object to the way it's ridden

https://scontent.fbhx4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.18172-8/10275458_467481693384325_2321956076073960415_o.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=61e847&_nc_ohc=snnjsShdgJcQ7kNvgFU2m8q&_nc_ht=scontent.fbhx4-2.fna&gid=AIztycRs-AnvJB0X7JjwAsj&oh=00_AYBVpMLbZOqI1e3ZBSnbc4MF_zZlHtR5SQNYPqqI5ECEUA&oe=66D1876D

 

[Miss_Millie]

I do dislike how someone being a mother is used in their defence, as if it is of any relevance to the situation. I have no children and I've also never beaten a horse.

 

[sbloom]

(I have no children, biological or otherwise, and I don't think anyone who's seen my rantings could argue I'm not invested in the future of this country, or the planet. Kamala has step children, and Pete Buttegieg (sp?) has adopted kids. Vile vile rhetoric.)

And moving swiftly away from the cheerful subject of cat women (not Michelle Pfeiffer), I was (to my subsequent shame) only just becoming enlighted about what goes on in horse sport in 2014, so this case passed me by at the time, but this is what can happen when a horse is not allowed to object to the way it's ridden

https://scontent.fbhx4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.18172-8/10275458_467481693384325_2321956076073960415_o.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=61e847&_nc_ohc=snnjsShdgJcQ7kNvgFU2m8q&_nc_ht=scontent.fbhx4-2.fna&gid=AIztycRs-AnvJB0X7JjwAsj&oh=00_AYBVpMLbZOqI1e3ZBSnbc4MF_zZlHtR5SQNYPqqI5ECEUA&oe=66D1876D

That's made me feel slightly sick, do you know/can you share the story behind it?

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

I do dislike how someone being a mother is used in their defence, as if it is of any relevance to the situation. I have no children and I've also never beaten a horse.

I'd notice the 'she's a mother' thing coming up too. I think unlikely parental status would be mentioned if she were a man in the same position. And agree not really relevant to the situation.

 

[Burnttoast]

I do dislike how someone being a mother is used in their defence, as if it is of any relevance to the situation. I have no children and I've also never beaten a horse.

Well quite. Some mothers beat their children, after all. It's no guarantee of anything.

 

[Burnttoast]

(I have no children, biological or otherwise, and I don't think anyone who's seen my rantings could argue I'm not invested in the future of this country, or the planet. Kamala has step children, and Pete Buttegieg (sp?) has adopted kids. Vile vile rhetoric.)



That's made me feel slightly sick, do you know/can you share the story behind it?

I found it on Epona's page (along with their recent video of Julie and Crispin using a weymouth to break a potato in half - funny and horrifying in equal measure). I'll just get the link.

ETA I think this should work https://www.facebook.com/share/4qBgDw9qvJ8yCuWY/

 

[PapaverFollis]

I think the "she's a mother" thing is just to guilt trip anyone being critical. Alongside the Caroline Flack references particularly.

 

[SEL]

Eh? Are we back to childless cat ladies again?

That's my retirement plan!!

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

The rules are that they are judges against a definitive, descriptive scale eg 5 is "sufficient" against the rules of how that movement should be done. Of course there is an element, human nature, of comparison, but it should be put aside.

It's making me wonder where the quest for ever more flailing legs is coming from then (among other things) as if there's a standard to work to, do they really have to out-flail each other?

 

[sbloom]

I found it on Epona's page (along with their recent video of Julie and Crispin using a weymouth to break a potato in half - funny and horrifying in equal measure). I'll just get the link.

ETA I think this should work https://www.facebook.com/share/4qBgDw9qvJ8yCuWY/

Thanks, more info here https://rumble.com/v3geu4j-winning-...u2-against-academy-bartels-lonneke-talks.html

 

[sbloom]

It's making me wonder where the quest for ever more flailing legs is coming from then (among other things) as if there's a standard to work to, do they really have to out-flail each other?

Because no-one is looking at the way of going, they prioritise accuracy, acceptance and athleticism. If they did not these horses would not win. Harmony, purity of paces, IFV should be priorities, or even yes/no issues - ie for every movement performed at or behind the vertical 2 points are deducted.

Sadly it's an old site so no longer has the graphic inserted but the CRC tests were great - http://www.classicalriding.co.uk/crc-dressage-tests/

 

[Burnttoast]

Thanks, more info here https://rumble.com/v3geu4j-winning-...u2-against-academy-bartels-lonneke-talks.html

Thanks. She has some grit to keep at it for this long and get a successful outcome in legal terms. I wonder how much is currently bubbling under the surface in terms of legislative 'cures' for this issue that may end up taking some stakeholders in Europe by surprise.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Thanks, more info here https://rumble.com/v3geu4j-winning-...u2-against-academy-bartels-lonneke-talks.html

Holy moly! Good for her to fight it like that. I dread to think how many are not able to either because they are being lied to, or don't have the financial resource, or cannot withstand the social onslaught in real life and on SM.

Certainly no #bekind there

 

[tristars]

Crazy cat ladies, is that mysogyny