CDJ withdrawn from paris

[mini-eventer]

Deleted

 

[onemoretime]

I'm pretty certain there was a falling out, prior to the video and nothing to do with anything of that ilk, and now apparently it's a free for all to insinuate anything using wooly, but evocative, language.

A soft tissue injury, for example, can happen to any horse and need a lot of time off then rehab. It doesn't mean that a horse with a soft tissue injury has been kept, trained or ridden in an abusive way.

Agree, a soft tissue injury can be done in the field larking about.

 

[scats]

Agree, a soft tissue injury can be done in the field larking about.

Yep. I’ve had 2 horses written off with soft tissue injuries done in the field. It’s one of the reasons I moved to a small yard where my horses could be out with each other but not in a big herd.

 

[HayleyUK]

I don’t think Freestyle *just* a soft tissue injury, and didn’t she have lami at one point?

Thing is, when she was winning, Emma didn’t seem overly concerned about the system or training - she was on board enough to send multiple horses to CDJ.

Pot and Kettle springs to mind!

 

[moosea]

"Normalised abuse"? A 45 second video of 45-60 minute training lesson does not normalise abuse.

You have zero evidence of how CDJ herself is training horses at home.

So everyone who posts on here about their horses soft tissue injuries must be subjecting their horses to an abusive training regime and practices? Come on

I think that a lot of people agreed at the time the video was released that CDJs timing with the lunge whip would point to it not being the first time she had used one in this way. That added to the comments about not being able to hit them hard enough is evidence to me that the sort of abuse seen in that clip was normal for CDJ and others present.

It's not ok. Not for 10 seconds or 45 seconds.

Of course horses injure themselves all the time, and there is no evidence that anyone's methods caused any injury.

 

[TPO]

I think that a lot of people agreed at the time the video was released that CDJs timing with the lunge whip would point to it not being the first time she had used one in this way. That added to the comments about not being able to hit them hard enough is evidence to me that the sort of abuse seen in that clip was normal for CDJ and others present.

It's not ok. Not for 10 seconds or 45 seconds.

Of course horses injure themselves all the time, and there is no evidence that anyone's methods caused any injury.

Just because "a lot of people agreed" doesn't make it fact

I mean a lot of people just agreed that Trump was the best person to be president of the US and well....

That's fine that you're interpretation of what you think you heard means that you've reached a certain conclusion but that still doesn't make it a fact.

And just because some posters like to twist themselves in knots, of course abuse of any type is not OK no matter the duration.

Someone started another thread at thr same time thus one kicked off named something like "where is the line". I didn't contribute because so many were acting totally hysterically and could t have any form of sensible discussion, but I do think it was an interesting topic.

For example many were aghast at the use of a lunge whip and it being used to make contact with a horse. Yet many of the hho "approved" trainers use flags in exactly the same way, escalating the pressure if they aren't getting a response. I know of one who prefers the nylon flag because "you can get a good crack (sound) out of it" and they will escalate the pressure to touching/tapping (another person's hitting) the horse with the flag or leather thong on a groundwork rope. So where is the line? During the hysteria at least one person posted that a horse should never move forward out of fear or discomfort. Which is exactly how most horses are trained- the right thing is easy eg when the horse moves forward the pressure (flag) stops. The majority can get on board with that but not when it's cdj/any dressage rider with a lunge whip. So where is the line?

Fwiw my interpretation of cdj saying she couldn't hit hard with that whip was that it wasn't stiff enough to crack (sound) it. Just because that's how I interpreted it doesn't make it fact either.

Until people stop making things up and running with opinions as fact I don't see how any sensible discussion can happen. Which is a shame as it's a very nuanced topic and there are bound to be a lot of really interesting discussion that could be had.

 

[eahotson]

Just because "a lot of people agreed" doesn't make it fact

I mean a lot of people just agreed that Trump was the best person to be president of the US and well....

That's fine that you're interpretation of what you think you heard means that you've reached a certain conclusion but that still doesn't make it a fact.

And just because some posters like to twist themselves in knots, of course abuse of any type is not OK no matter the duration.

Someone started another thread at thr same time thus one kicked off named something like "where is the line". I didn't contribute because so many were acting totally hysterically and could t have any form of sensible discussion, but I do think it was an interesting topic.

For example many were aghast at the use of a lunge whip and it being used to make contact with a horse. Yet many of the hho "approved" trainers use flags in exactly the same way, escalating the pressure if they aren't getting a response. I know of one who prefers the nylon flag because "you can get a good crack (sound) out of it" and they will escalate the pressure to touching/tapping (another person's hitting) the horse with the flag or leather thong on a groundwork rope. So where is the line? During the hysteria at least one person posted that a horse should never move forward out of fear or discomfort. Which is exactly how most horses are trained- the right thing is easy eg when the horse moves forward the pressure (flag) stops. The majority can get on board with that but not when it's cdj/any dressage rider with a lunge whip. So where is the line?

Fwiw my interpretation of cdj saying she couldn't hit hard with that whip was that it wasn't stiff enough to crack (sound) it. Just because that's how I interpreted it doesn't make it fact either.

Until people stop making things up and running with opinions as fact I don't see how any sensible discussion can happen. Which is a shame as it's a very nuanced topic and there are bound to be a lot of really interesting discussion that could be had.

I don't think that anyone would suggest that Charlotte is the only one who is/was abusive and she may well not be the worst.There us no doubt in most people's minds though that what was on that video was abuse .

 

[moosea]

Just because "a lot of people agreed" doesn't make it fact

I mean a lot of people just agreed that Trump was the best person to be president of the US and well....

That's fine that you're interpretation of what you think you heard means that you've reached a certain conclusion but that still doesn't make it a fact.

And just because some posters like to twist themselves in knots, of course abuse of any type is not OK no matter the duration.

Someone started another thread at thr same time thus one kicked off named something like "where is the line". I didn't contribute because so many were acting totally hysterically and could t have any form of sensible discussion, but I do think it was an interesting topic.

For example many were aghast at the use of a lunge whip and it being used to make contact with a horse. Yet many of the hho "approved" trainers use flags in exactly the same way, escalating the pressure if they aren't getting a response. I know of one who prefers the nylon flag because "you can get a good crack (sound) out of it" and they will escalate the pressure to touching/tapping (another person's hitting) the horse with the flag or leather thong on a groundwork rope. So where is the line? During the hysteria at least one person posted that a horse should never move forward out of fear or discomfort. Which is exactly how most horses are trained- the right thing is easy eg when the horse moves forward the pressure (flag) stops. The majority can get on board with that but not when it's cdj/any dressage rider with a lunge whip. So where is the line?

Fwiw my interpretation of cdj saying she couldn't hit hard with that whip was that it wasn't stiff enough to crack (sound) it. Just because that's how I interpreted it doesn't make it fact either.

Until people stop making things up and running with opinions as fact I don't see how any sensible discussion can happen. Which is a shame as it's a very nuanced topic and there are bound to be a lot of really interesting discussion that could be had.

So you think that the cdj was a one off incident? The first time it has ever been done by her?

I know what is to be heard in that video. And it is clear that the comments regarding not being able to hit them hard enough were directed at hitting the horse. If it was about not being able to make the whip crack then that would not make sense, as lunge whips are great for making a crack noise. I finding strange that you interpreted that comment that way when she was hitting the horse with the whip.

Until people stop normalising this sort of behaviour, especially from an olympian and welfare champion, then ,no we can't have a sensible discussion.

 

[TPO]

What's the point in answering when you've already stated that you can't have a sensible discussion?

Nothing that I've ever said (on any thread on here) has "normalised abuse". On the contrary I try to call it out while other posters are fawning over pictures and videos of lame, sore horses who can't even stand with their legs anywhere other than jammed under themselves. Posters who ride because THEY want to over the welfare of the horse. I'm not a "dressage person", I don't like/follow it but I'd send a horse to CDJ over a lot of people who post on here and claim to love their horse(s).

But obviously there is no point expanding on anything sine it's been confirmed again that a sensible discussion is beyond people's abilities.

 

[moosea]

What's the point in answering when you've already stated that you can't have a sensible discussion?

Nothing that I've ever said (on any thread on here) has "normalised abuse". On the contrary I try to call it out while other posters are fawning over pictures and videos of lame, sore horses who can't even stand with their legs anywhere other than jammed under themselves. Posters who ride because THEY want to over the welfare of the horse. I'm not a "dressage person", I don't like/follow it but I'd send a horse to CDJ over a lot of people who post on here and claim to love their horse(s).

But obviously there is no point expanding on anything sine it's been confirmed again that a sensible discussion is beyond people's abilities.

OK so would you be able to answer
Do you think the cdj video was the first time she had trained a horse like that and was a one off incident?

 

[TPO]

OK so would you be able to answer
Do you think the cdj video was the first time she had trained a horse like that and was a one off incident?

So now you're capable of a sensible discussion??? You'll have to give me a minute to recover from the whiplash

 

[moosea]

So now you're capable of a sensible discussion??? You'll have to give me a minute to recover from the whiplash

I've always been capable of sensible discussion. I am just breaking my original post down to make it easier

 

[TPO]

I've always been capable of sensible discussion. I am just breaking my original post down to make it easier

So it wasn't you who posted this?

,no we can't have a sensible discussion

 

[moosea]

So it wasn't you who posted this?

I posted.

Until people stop normalising this sort of behaviour, especially from an olympian and welfare champion, then ,no we can't have a sensible discussion

So are you now recovered enough to answer the question?

 

[TPO]

I posted.

So are you now recovered enough to answer the question?

Not with you tbh. You've already stated your case and clearly are not open to a discussion.

You've formed your opinion based a 45 second stand alone clip that has no context (& there is context to that lesson and what happened prior and after), there has been no other evidence that it's a repeated behaviour, and made it a fact in your head, so what is the point?

You think you're handing me rope to hang myself with but thankfully I'm not as green as I'm cabbage looking.

As ive already said the thread someone else started about "where do you draw the line?" would be an interesting discussion to have. But its utterly pointless having it with close minded people who want an echo chamber. Luckily i have a wide range of horse friends and acquaintances from all different walks of horse life and experiences so I can have, and listen to, those nuances.

To reiterate for the umpteenth time si ce so many are hard of reading and computing, abuse is not acceptable & I've never normalised it.

The only good banging your head on a brick wall is the relief you feel when you stop

 

[moosea]

Not with you tbh. You've already stated your case and clearly are not open to a discussion.

You've formed your opinion based a 45 second stand alone clip that has no context (& there is context to that lesson and what happened prior and after), there has been no other evidence that it's a repeated behaviour, and made it a fact in your head, so what is the point?

You think you're handing me rope to hang myself with but thankfully I'm not as green as I'm cabbage looking.

As ive already said the thread someone else started about "where do you draw the line?" would be an interesting discussion to have. But its utterly pointless having it with close minded people who want an echo chamber. Luckily i have a wide range of horse friends and acquaintances from all different walks of horse life and experiences so I can have, and listen to, those nuances.

To reiterate for the umpteenth time si ce so many are hard of reading and computing, abuse is not acceptable & I've never normalised it.

The only good banging your head on a brick wall is the relief you feel when you stop

Looks like you're not capable of having the discussion after all

 

[TPO]

Looks like you're not capable of having the discussion after all

Nailed it, I'm notorious on here for having nothing to say

 

[PurpleSpots]

Come on you both, life's too short .

 

[PoppyAnderson]

No context is required with that video clip.

 

[nikicb]

Just because "a lot of people agreed" doesn't make it fact

I mean a lot of people just agreed that Trump was the best person to be president of the US and well....

That's fine that you're interpretation of what you think you heard means that you've reached a certain conclusion but that still doesn't make it a fact.

And just because some posters like to twist themselves in knots, of course abuse of any type is not OK no matter the duration.

Someone started another thread at thr same time thus one kicked off named something like "where is the line". I didn't contribute because so many were acting totally hysterically and could t have any form of sensible discussion, but I do think it was an interesting topic.

For example many were aghast at the use of a lunge whip and it being used to make contact with a horse. Yet many of the hho "approved" trainers use flags in exactly the same way, escalating the pressure if they aren't getting a response. I know of one who prefers the nylon flag because "you can get a good crack (sound) out of it" and they will escalate the pressure to touching/tapping (another person's hitting) the horse with the flag or leather thong on a groundwork rope. So where is the line? During the hysteria at least one person posted that a horse should never move forward out of fear or discomfort. Which is exactly how most horses are trained- the right thing is easy eg when the horse moves forward the pressure (flag) stops. The majority can get on board with that but not when it's cdj/any dressage rider with a lunge whip. So where is the line?

Fwiw my interpretation of cdj saying she couldn't hit hard with that whip was that it wasn't stiff enough to crack (sound) it. Just because that's how I interpreted it doesn't make it fact either.

Until people stop making things up and running with opinions as fact I don't see how any sensible discussion can happen. Which is a shame as it's a very nuanced topic and there are bound to be a lot of really interesting discussion that could be had.

Whether or not CDJ has a history of mistreating horses, I have absolutely no idea, but the person who currently has the horse in the video, has quite clearly stated recently on SM that the horse in question is anxious when a trainer stands in the middle of the arena. The dots are there to join up if you look on SM, so I am not going to spell them out here. But that particular horse has been damaged by the 'training', and it will be a long hard job to get her back, if they manage at all. I have no association with any of the parties involved.

 

[LEC]

Rather than going round in circles, wouldn’t it have been lovely for dressage to come out with a blueprint by the FEI on how they are going to tackle this stuff?!?

 

[FieldOrnaments]

Whether or not CDJ has a history of mistreating horses, I have absolutely no idea, but the person who currently has the horse in the video, has quite clearly stated recently on SM that the horse in question is anxious when a trainer stands in the middle of the arena. The dots are there to join up if you look on SM, so I am not going to spell them out here. But that particular horse has been damaged by the 'training', and it will be a long hard job to get her back, if they manage at all. I have no association with any of the parties involved.

Where is the horse now and who are they with?
.

 

[PurpleSpots]

Where is the horse now and who are they with?
.

Bei Facebook anmelden

Melde dich bei Facebook an, um dich mit deinen Freunden, deiner Familie und Personen, die du kennst, zu verbinden und Inhalte zu teilen.

www.facebook.com

Horse is called Gretchen. Show name Dynamite Hit I believe.

 

[TPO]

Whether or not CDJ has a history of mistreating horses, I have absolutely no idea, but the person who currently has the horse in the video, has quite clearly stated recently on SM that the horse in question is anxious when a trainer stands in the middle of the arena. The dots are there to join up if you look on SM, so I am not going to spell them out here. But that particular horse has been damaged by the 'training', and it will be a long hard job to get her back, if they manage at all. I have no association with any of the parties involved, but this all happened not a million miles from me.

Which could explain why it was napping in the video before there was a lunge whip?

Putting aside the ethics of what CDJ did in that clip, it didn't work. It didn't get the horse forward, stop the napping or change the horse's mind. Having seen people who do abuse horses regularly, their methods tend to be effective in so far as making the horse do what they want.

Just for the hard of reading, even if the horse was a known and confirmed napper that is not a reason to get after it [even although that is often the advice doled out on here time and time again].

The social media dots also lead to a video of the cackling hyena abusing a horse for a sustained period of time and damaging priority. Not the martyr fight the good cause for horse welfare that she claimed to be.

 

[TPO]

Rather than going round in circles, wouldn’t it have been lovely for dressage to come out with a blueprint by the FEI on how they are going to tackle this stuff?!?

So far all they've managed to do is make the nosebamd checker smaller

 

[nikicb]

Where is the horse now and who are they with?
.

Sorry, you need to do your own research as I did mine. I am not going to 'out' anyone.

 

[nikicb]

Which could explain why it was napping in the video before there was a lunge whip?

Putting aside the ethics of what CDJ did in that clip, it didn't work. It didn't get the horse forward, stop the napping or change the horse's mind. Having seen people who do abuse horses regularly, their methods tend to be effective in so far as making the horse do what they want.

Just for the hard of reading, even if the horse was a known and confirmed napper that is not a reason to get after it [even although that is often the advice doled out on here time and time again].

The social media dots also lead to a video of the cackling hyena abusing a horse for a sustained period of time and damaging priority. Not the martyr fight the good cause for horse welfare that she claimed to be.

Definitely agree that what CDJ was totally futile. Whether that was a reaction of what happened previously, or something that caused the current reaction, who knows. What I do know, is that every single time we interact with a horse, we are training. Whether that training brings a desirable outcome or not, is open to opinion.

 

[TPO]

Definitely agree that what CJD was totally futile. Whether that was a reaction of what happened previously, or something that caused the current reaction, who knows. What I do know, is that every single time we interact with a horse, we are training. Whether that training brings a desirable outcome or not, is open to opinion.

Totally agree.

 

[FieldOrnaments]

Bei Facebook anmelden

Melde dich bei Facebook an, um dich mit deinen Freunden, deiner Familie und Personen, die du kennst, zu verbinden und Inhalte zu teilen.

www.facebook.com

Horse is called Gretchen.

Thank you

Considering the page is public I'm not sure it's outing anyone, I just couldn't be bothered to go looking myself because I'm lazy. It's not the owner, just one of her riders.

 

[PurpleSpots]

Thank you

Considering the page is public I'm not sure it's outing anyone, I just couldn't be bothered to go looking myself because I'm lazy.

To be honest I think part of raising awareness, significance and importance of the problem is acknowledging what it does to the horse in the long-term, as I suspect many in the industry would likely argue that she continued to be 'fine'.