CDJ withdrawn from paris

[FieldOrnaments]

the German team who got the gold are no better than CDJ

It's like saying they hate the colour blue yet praising the beauty of the sky.

 

[teddy_]

the German team who got the gold are no better than CDJ

It's like saying they hate the colour blue yet praising the beauty of the sky.

Oh for goodness sake !

 

[94lunagem]

the German team who got the gold are no better than CDJ

Your evidence supporting this claim being…?

 

[shortstuff99]

Your evidence supporting this claim being…?

IW is pretty well known to have been a big user of Rolkur. There are a lot of videos of it online.

 

[Aleka81]

IW is pretty well known to have been a big user of Rolkur. There are a lot of videos of it online.

And when are they from?? People change. Honestly look at her now. She is one of if not the only international rider who travels with her horses when on flights. The equine world is a S##t show. Even when things change people don't let go. If you had your way CDJ would be in the stocks. UNBELIEVABLE

 

[teddy_]

IW is pretty well known to have been a big user of Rolkur. There are a lot of videos of it online.

Isabell may be a controversial figure; but to the label the whole DE team as “no better than CDJ” is simply baseless.

 

[shortstuff99]

And when are they from?? People change. Honestly look at her now. She is one of if not the only international rider who travels with her horses when on flights. The equine world is a S##t show. Even when things change people don't let go. If you had your way CDJ would be in the stocks. UNBELIEVABLE

No, I didn't say the whole team was no better I mentioned why someone would find some members of the team controversial. I gave no opinion on it either way.

ETA she also supports Helgstrand and doesn't believe he did anything wrong which has also made her somewhat controversial currently.

 

[eahotson]

I suspect that CDJ learned abusive treatment of horses in the showing world.
I found this thread online written by someone who worked in a yard of a H&H columnist…
…”I too have worked on showing yards, no, its not about the ponies, in many cases, not all, how is it about a pony, when they as a 4 year old novice have travelled miles to a show, to not go well, come home, get battered with a shovel in a small tack room infront of livery clients? Its a sick, sick world the world of showing and whether it is bent or not, is, or should be the least of peoples worries, the abuse is the worst thing! ACP'd up to be schooled, beaten, ponies scared stiff of their evil b*tch owner, the list goes on!“

I remember the H&H columnist in question using a schooling whip to force a 12hh show pony to walk forward into the bit with the reins held tight. There were whip marks left on the pony’s hind 1/4s.
I remember, as a 9 yo, sitting in the corner of the pony’s stable crying afterwards.
The columnist was v.careful to make sure nobody else was in the School before the ponies were whipped like this.

One part or me thinks that the timing of the CDJ complaint was sabotage.
Another part of me, can empathise with the rider being told this was ‘normal’, their feelings were not valid, and not being able to bear CDJ’s media coverage at the Olympics after the way she treated her horse.

I feel slightly sick every time I see this H&H columnists articles. However many years ago you witnessed something abusive, 4 years ago or 30, it can feel like yesterday.
From people’s reaction to this video, I now know that the way I feel about this is valid.

Yes if people complained they were called "Bunny Huggers: and their feelings dismissed as irrelevant.

 

[eahotson]

The professional showing yard I had a horse with had high standards, no short cuts, no side reins, lots of turn out, lots of hacking, huge attention to detail. The Olympic rider’s event yard I worked in totally relaxed no gadgets proper riding amazing hacking and turn out. Lots of laughs and a fab time. The crossest bit of riding I saw was at a dressage yard which has connections to a current Olympic horse and rider. That may have been a moment in time. It may be how that person rides. Was only there for a lesson not with that person so I can’t say. We mustn’t taint everyone or every individual because of how one person behaves. That individual behaviour should be addressed.

But unfortunately that's what happens.My bad experiences were mainly around show jumping so I tend to see all show jumpers in this light .

 

[Pointless1]

Things have to change if horse sports are to survive. (If they even should?!) People have to call out abuse when they see it. Person at a local show, someone at a riding school or livery yard or top class rider. However. If you see it do something. Too many of us keep quiet. We have to stand up for horses. They don't have a voice.

 

[Sheep]

Things have to change if horse sports are to survive. (If they even should?!) People have to call out abuse when they see it. Person at a local show, someone at a riding school or livery yard or top class rider. However. If you see it do something. Too many of us keep quiet. We have to stand up for horses. They don't have a voice.

Funnily enough I saw something yesterday that made me very uncomfortable. Two guys were leading horses very close together. So what happened next was entirely the humans’ fault…
Horse #1 kicked horse #2 and in the scuffle, the guy leading horse #1 fell over (horse stood dead still). Horse #2 guy yelled to horse #1 “as soon as you get your hands back on him… make sure you whack him!”
I turned to guy #2 and just went… really? What’s that going to achieve?
He went off on one about how, if a child hit another child, wouldn’t you reprimand it? I just rolled my eyes.
I didn’t then see if guy #1 did do as he was told, I don’t think he did. How the hell would the horse connect the kick some 30 seconds earlier with a human randomly hitting them?!
I was very cross.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Funnily enough I saw something yesterday that made me very uncomfortable. Two guys were leading horses very close together. So what happened next was entirely the humans’ fault…
Horse #1 kicked horse #2 and in the scuffle, the guy leading horse #1 fell over (horse stood dead still). Horse #2 guy yelled to horse #1 “as soon as you get your hands back on him… make sure you whack him!”
I turned to guy #2 and just went… really? What’s that going to achieve?
He went off on one about how, if a child hit another child, wouldn’t you reprimand it? I just rolled my eyes.
I didn’t then see if guy #1 did do as he was told, I don’t think he did. How the hell would the horse connect the kick some 30 seconds earlier with a human randomly hitting them?!
I was very cross.

Wow really telling on his attitude towards children too if his idea of reprimanding them was relevant to 'whacking' a horse.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

No, I didn't say the whole team was no better I mentioned why someone would find some members of the team controversial. I gave no opinion on it either way.

ETA she also supports Helgstrand and doesn't believe he did anything wrong which has also made her somewhat controversial currently.

Her attitude in the interview someone shared on here very recently was awful. Not good representation for the sport and certainly didn't give me confidence in positive change from her. She has quite fiercely defended Helgstrand.

There's also been welfare concerns reported regarding the Danish teams very recently. The problems are very much alive and kicking.

It's a difficult time for horse sports but I think this should be an opportunity for real change, not just saying things to make people feel better but actual change for the horses. Or the FEI and others at the top can keep sticking their heads in the sand.

 

[Sheep]

Wow really telling on his attitude towards children too if his idea of reprimanding them was relevant to 'whacking' a horse.

Absolutely!

He works in a local tack shop… I’ll be sure to be sickeningly sweet next time I see him

 

[tristars]

t's the horrible riding that sets a bad standard for followers, copiers, adorers and then the house of cards falls, and we are left with disillusion and mortified by what the horses have to endure, how misunderstood they can be and how lonely it is to not be able to talk and express emotions Including distress, while we have to see blood in mouths and on sides, winched in necks and horses who could have been spectacular stifled and a parody of what they should be.

 

[Burnttoast]

I find it disappointing to see it implied in various places that a few medals should cheer us all up, as though they make any difference to the horses' experiences, as if they make horse sport any more horse friendly. It seems to be business as usual tbh. The idea that horses get any genuine pleasure from this stuff must come from a place of total misunderstanding or denial of their nature, what motivates them and what they'd choose to do given the option. And if they get no enjoyment from it, it's really just all about people as usual.

 

[Darcey69]

I find it disappointing to see it implied in various places that a few medals should cheer us all up, as though they make any difference to the horses' experiences, as if they make horse sport any more horse friendly. It seems to be business as usual tbh. The idea that horses get any genuine pleasure from this stuff must come from a place of total misunderstanding or denial of their nature, what motivates them and what they'd choose to do given the option. And if they get no enjoyment from it, it's really just all about people as usual.

I think you don't really know horses if you believe none of them get any pleasure from working with people. Most horses I've worked with love their work and what we do. Some definitely don't and they should be asked to do something different. People who are cruel are totally wrong, but that doesn't mean all work with horses is wrong. In fact doing nothing with them can be very cruel for both their mental and physical health.

 

[sbloom]

In fact doing nothing with them can be very cruel for both their mental and physical health.

How many horses would suffer if they had enrichment in turnout, plenty of room to move, good food, friends, good dental/hoof care but otherwise were only handled enough to keep all of that stress-free? Especially if that's all they'd ever known, whatever their breeding/apparent "purpose".

 

[Burnttoast]

I think you don't really know horses if you believe none of them get any pleasure from working with people. Most horses I've worked with love their work and what we do. Some definitely don't and they should be asked to do something different. People who are cruel are totally wrong, but that doesn't mean all work with horses is wrong. In fact doing nothing with them can be very cruel for both their mental and physical health.

Ah the 'I disagree with you therefore you must know nothing about the subject' defence. It's always very convincing.

As if I need to justify my opinion, I've spent 40 years around horses in various capacities. I've seen things done well and done badly. I've competed, a bit, worked in yards from international level to a couple of hunters, and in endurance, eventing, dressage, WE, polo. Owned my own (just the one), looked after a lot of horses for other people who themselves have had very varying levels of knowledge and competence. More recently I've become a lot more interested in ethology and it's on that basis that I say that horses would never (if they had the capacity to do so) choose to be our partners in the many activities we've enlisted them into over the centuries.

 

[Burnttoast]

How many horses would suffer if they had enrichment in turnout, plenty of room to move, good food, friends, good dental/hoof care but otherwise were only handled enough to keep all of that stress-free? Especially if that's all they'd ever known, whatever their breeding/apparent "purpose".

My main role as I see it now is to continually improve my pony's environment and life in whatever way I can. Given that the first ten years of his life were mostly stressful, from going through Beaulieu sales as an unhandled yearling to being really screwed up by at least 2 of the 7 homes he had in that period, I think he deserves a break. It gives me huge pleasure and zero cognitive dissonance to do this and is a very comfortable place for me to be too therefore

 

[PaulineW]

Not commented on this thread, as I can’t add to everything already said. However I'm surprised how many new users seem to have joined just to post here. Is it because this thread is appearing on google search results, old users rejoining? Just an observation, no more than that.

 

[Pedantic]

This thread still rattling on, thought the wheels would have fallen off by now..

 

[Darcey69]

Ah the 'I disagree with you therefore you must know nothing about the subject' defence. It's always very convincing.

As if I need to justify my opinion, I've spent 40 years around horses in various capacities. I've seen things done well and done badly. I've competed, a bit, worked in yards from international level to a couple of hunters, and in endurance, eventing, dressage, WE, polo. Owned my own (just the one), looked after a lot of horses for other people who themselves have had very varying levels of knowledge and competence. More recently I've become a lot more interested in ethology and it's on that basis that I say that horses would never (if they had the capacity to do so) choose to be our partners in the many activities we've enlisted them into over the centuries.

Then with all your experience surely you agree that some of the horses you've spent time with have enjoyed the experience of being with you. I've definitely found that, and that some horses develop their "skills" to maximise the benefit they get from the horse/human relationship. Some horses are hugely intelligent, which would be a surprise to many I think, but obviously not to the "thoughtful" horse-carer.

 

[Darcey69]

Not commented on this thread, as I can’t add to everything already said. However I'm surprised how many new users seem to have joined just to post here. Is it because this thread is appearing on google search results, old users rejoining? Just an observation, no more than that.

Well actually I can't speak for anyone else, but I've been a member for over 10 years. I've only posted about 15 times, but read the forum several times a week. Not sure why I'm labelled a "new user" by the system, but that's fine it doesn't matter to anyone surely.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Not commented on this thread, as I can’t add to everything already said. However I'm surprised how many new users seem to have joined just to post here. Is it because this thread is appearing on google search results, old users rejoining? Just an observation, no more than that.

I saw a FB post earlier this morning and it said something along the lines...."they are losing their sh1t over on H&H about this, I keep going on just to wind them all up" I think the thread is becoming just a hunting ground for trolls and trouble makers and not adding anything worthwhile to the original debate.

Just my opinion of course but I opted out of it during the week as it was clearly not adding anything further that could be described as interesting or debateable to the original purpose of the thread.

 

[Gloi]

Well actually I can't speak for anyone else, but I've been a member for over 10 years. I've only posted about 15 times, but read the forum several times a week. Not sure why I'm labelled a "new user" by the system, but that's fine it doesn't matter to anyone surely.

Joined Jan 19 2024, it says.

 

[skinnydipper]

Well actually I can't speak for anyone else, but I've been a member for over 10 years. I've only posted about 15 times,

and your other usernames are .... ?

 

[Burnttoast]

Then with all your experience surely you agree that some of the horses you've spent time with have enjoyed the experience of being with you. I've definitely found that, and that some horses develop their "skills" to maximise the benefit they get from the horse/human relationship. Some horses are hugely intelligent, which would be a surprise to many I think, but obviously not to the "thoughtful" horse-carer.

Yes of course horses have done things that make me feel good about our relationship, some of which - getting me to give them a scratch, etc., - they presumably enjoy (so they certainly learn where they can benefit, given the chance) but I'm not in their heads so I'm not going to say 'yes they enjoy being with me', or, perhaps more pertinently, 'they'd rather be doing this than doing something else'. From a philosophical standpoint training itself is rife with ethical conflicts, some completely obvious but others less so. So a skilled trainer may rarely get a 'no' from their horses, but that should never be taken as consent or agreement as a horse doesn't have that capacity in a human sense. As a species they rarely benefit from conflict, so mostly avoid it, which is why it's very easy for even quite mediocre trainers to have their own will prevail in any given situation. My main thought at this stage in my life is that we are mostly not prepared to give horses a genuine choice (finding a job that 'suits them' is still a compromise), and that good training is essentially a way of obviating the 'no' without a lot of drama.

 

[criso]

How many horses would suffer if they had enrichment in turnout, plenty of room to move, good food, friends, good dental/hoof care but otherwise were only handled enough to keep all of that stress-free? Especially if that's all they'd ever known, whatever their breeding/apparent "purpose".

But would it be possible to give them the free ranging environment they really want? Outside the new forest or Exmoor horses don't have that sort of environment

My last tb even when retired wanted to go out and about. Couldn't be ridden so I took him out for walks. He sometimes had 3 fields to roam around but wanted to be out exploring so we went out in hand. Hacking would have been better as I did in his opinion slow him down on foot.

There was a relationship there with him wanting to spend time with me voluntarily. When living out 24/7 I'd sometimes let him loose and he'd come up to the yard to hang out. He was a horse that didn't like a lot of humans so he wasn't tolerating contact.

Like pets they've been bred for a long time based on those that were amenable to work with humans so it's not surprising if they seek out contact.

 

[blitznbobs]

I went into the babies field the other day to pull ragwort. During the summer there are 3 horses on over 15 acres of hills and different terrain. They only come in for their feet to be done and worm counted the same day and straight back out. I don’t give treats to the babies ever… so why then if humans are just these people that cause them distress and they are flight animals can I not get rid of them out of my way? They are literally forcing me to interact with them. I wish they were ignoring me but no they are squabbling over who gets to talk to me. How is this them preferring to be in their own herd and not enjoying human interaction.

There is growing evidence that horses were domesticated during the end of the last ice age and in areas where they weren’t interacting with humans they died out… so to say they prefer and succeed better in a natural environment is not evidence based. Horses live less long and suffer more pain in the wild … natural is not always better and many horses I have worked with definitely enjoy their work til the point when they get jealous of you interacting with others.