PaulineW
Well-Known Member
Joined this year and have 4 posts, so? Anyway, you chose to assume I was referring to you, but it was a general observation.
New users coming on and being quite confrontational - same old..
CDJ withdrawn from paris
- Thread starter Zoeypxo
- Start date
New users coming on and being quite confrontational - same old..
scats
Well-Known Member
hhh
I walked down my big field to collect some fence posts yesterday. The girls, lead by Polly who is very attached to me, followed me all the way down and ‘helped’ me collect the posts, before following me all the way back up. It was like an elephant procession
I walked down my big field to collect some fence posts yesterday. The girls, lead by Polly who is very attached to me, followed me all the way down and ‘helped’ me collect the posts, before following me all the way back up. It was like an elephant procession
Miss_Millie
Well-Known Member
Apparently Snoop Dog is going to save dressage, so there's nothing to worry about anymore
stormox
Well-Known Member
I think the medals in the Olympics have cheered us up.
I have met several people today saying " aren't the horses and riders great bringing home all those medals".
One even said her daughter wanted to start riding just as I did long ago when watching Harvey Smith and reading Pat Smythe.
It certainly isn't a bad thing for equestrians to win a few Olymic medals.
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what they really want is Exmoor etc. I'm assuming they're probably unable to imagine hypothetical situations and will never have experienced that type of freedom. But life can be made better for a lot of horses if people are really interested enough to try. My boy spent his first year on the Forest and I wonder if that is at the root of his extremely defensive, explosive behaviour when I got him. He had been very independent, and then at some point people screwed him up. Anyway, I can't give him the Forest back but it is still possible to provide those things that are considered basic to a horse's well-being but are often neglected (such as a genuinely stable herd) and to allow him to interact with me almost entirely on his own terms. When I got him (even more obvious now looking back) he was stressed and withdrawn, and continually showing calming signals. But mostly he was light and obedient, until you crossed a line. He wasn't happy and would rather not have had to interact with people at all. Now he doesn't have to, and he's calm, mostly. He'll come up to see if I have something for him and allow me to give him a scratch (not that he's really into that). That's all that matters to me really.
Their breeding long-term to tolerate people is an interesting one. Przewalski's horses are not tameable and have 66 chromosomes rather than the 64 of domestic horses. Maybe the wildness is in those 2. But ethically again - yes we've made it easier for them to be with us and vice versa but does that just mean we've bred the ability to withstand (that's not the wording I want but I can't find that today) levels of abuse that many of us find repugnant? Is that really a good thing for them? It's good for us, yes...
Time for Tea
Well-Known Member
Just a few thoughts on this business of “would horses choose” their lives with humans. Of course we can never really know. The horse nirvana as described earlier in the thread where horses could have food, friends, lovely turnout, friends and care without any other stress, well yes perhaps they would choose that.
But that is not on offer except perhaps from a few humans, or as a retirement gift. Nor is it on offer in the wild, where there are many stresses. The stresses are no doubt what the horse has evolved to cope with, so it is more natural for them than being kept as a ridden horse, but stresses there undoubtedly are, and working with people is perhaps a stress that replaces the search for food, water and predator evasion in return for security. Once the horse has learnt what is required of them, provided the tasks required are reasonable (which is a whole other subject) I do think they come to enjoy their work and enjoy having a job. This is my observation after numbers of years of horse keeping. And yes we have bred them to do this over centuries, so they are better able to cope with it than a zebra or Przewalski horse.
Abuse, well humans abuse everything including each other dont they? Maybe we shouldn’t be allowed to breed at all ourselves and also not allowed to keep any animals at all.
But that is not on offer except perhaps from a few humans, or as a retirement gift. Nor is it on offer in the wild, where there are many stresses. The stresses are no doubt what the horse has evolved to cope with, so it is more natural for them than being kept as a ridden horse, but stresses there undoubtedly are, and working with people is perhaps a stress that replaces the search for food, water and predator evasion in return for security. Once the horse has learnt what is required of them, provided the tasks required are reasonable (which is a whole other subject) I do think they come to enjoy their work and enjoy having a job. This is my observation after numbers of years of horse keeping. And yes we have bred them to do this over centuries, so they are better able to cope with it than a zebra or Przewalski horse.
Abuse, well humans abuse everything including each other dont they? Maybe we shouldn’t be allowed to breed at all ourselves and also not allowed to keep any animals at all.
pistolpete
Well-Known Member
It’s true humans do do the worst things but we are capable of doing the best too. Just need all the stuff in the middle to be more good than bad!
Equi
Well-Known Member
Many animals (I include humans in that) are a bit wicked to each other. And it isn’t all hunting for food. All we can do is try to be the best version of ourselves and learn from both our own and others mistakes. Big sweeping motions of ban all pets is never going to help.
Peregrine Falcon
Looking forward to cooler days
@Darcey69 Semi-feral ponies are very happy not to have human contact, except there are a number of people every year who insist on trying to feed them human food and encouraging them near roads. That's cruel.
Time for Tea
Well-Known Member
You’ve just reminded me about a neighbours pony. He was a New Forest semi feral, born and bred. He decided he wanted to join in with my neighbours ponies in their field, and he just kept jumping in. No mares involved! He was about 2. He never jumped back out once he was in! They chased him out quite a few times but he kept coming back. Finally they gave in, spoke to the owner, got given him I think, had him gelded and now he does weekend pony rides with kids. He always looks happy.
little_critter
Well-Known Member
Since learning a smattering of fancy moves, my boy likes to ‘misbehave’ out hacking by showing off said fancy moves.
Fine by me, if he’s going to be naughty I’d much rather he did collected trot than either buck or bu**er off
Time for Tea
Well-Known Member
He’s showing you how clever he is learning all these new things! That’s very sweetSince learning a smattering of fancy moves, my boy likes to ‘misbehave’ out hacking by showing off said fancy moves.
Fine by me, if he’s going to be naughty I’d much rather he did collected trot than either buck or bu**er off
little_critter
Well-Known Member
I know, I think it’s lovely.
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
EPONA.tv
This is in Swedish but newspaper Expressen has confronted Patrik Kittel with fresh blue tongue photos of Touchdown taken during the #Olympics - the photographer is Jan Olav Nesvold, a professional...
www.facebook.com
Patrik Kittel again (perhaps unsurprisingly)
Google trans. of article:
Here Patrik Kittel escapes Expressen's questions. This after pictures emerged of his horse Touchdown with the highly criticized blue tongue. Later, the dressage rider returns with a text message: "I stand for how I ride. No one has had anything to complain about". At the same time, a number of riders have been summoned for questioning by the judges.
During the World Cup competition in Amsterdam last spring, photographer Crispin Parelius Johannessen made a discovery. Touchdown, ridden by Patrik Kittel, tried to open his mouth several times. The photographer then took a large number of pictures of the crew. On closer inspection of the pictures, it appeared that the horse's tongue was blue. The pictures were published in Aftonbladet, among others. Kittel then replied with an SMS, and wrote: "I understand that the images may raise questions. But at the same time I know that they do not give a representative picture of the rides.” Last week Bildbyrån took new pictures of Touchdown in connection with the dressage qualification during the Olympics. These again show that the horse has a blue tongue, which means that the blood circulation has been cut off.
Patrik Kittel escapes the questions
After Sunday's ride in the dressage Grand Prix kür in Versailles, Expressen tries to ask Kittel questions. He walks quickly through the mixed zone - where journalists and the practicing athletes meet - after his round of Touchdown. He answers some questions about his riding. When Expressen wants him to comment on the picture, he disappears on the way with the words: - We can take it later. Expressen meets him again after the Swede Therese Nilshagen competed. Want to answer questions about the picture now? - No I do not want to. You can contact the association. I have already done that. And it is your horse after all. Kittel just shakes his head and walks away. Later, he sends a text message via Matilda Hjertstrand, press officer from the Ridlandslagen. "I stand for how I ride. We have veterinarians and stewards (who must ensure that the rules are followed, ed. note) on site, horses and equipment are checked before and after the ride, and no one has had anything to complain about.”
"Constant problem"
Kati Tuomola is a Finnish veterinarian who has done a lot of research on horse behavior. - I have seen this type of picture before. This is an ongoing problem. The horse's tongue is dark purple when it should be cut. You can see that the bar bite compresses the tongue. The mouth is open and the upper lip is concave. It should be relaxed and round, the tension in the horse's mouth is clear, says Tuomola. - In addition, the horse's gaze is strained, which indicates some form of discomfort. Is it normal for the mouth to be open like in the picture? - Normally it should be closed, because the horse can only breathe through the nostrils - not through the mouth. Is this a horse that feels pain? - It's hard to say, but it's definitely a negative experience for it. It looks like it has a problem. For example, there is research that says a horse would feel much better with fewer bites in its mouth than the horse in the picture.
The association: "That should not happen"
Johan Fyrberg, general secretary of the Swedish Equestrian Federation, distances himself from the picture. - We should not have blue tongues in dressage. That shouldn't happen, it's not something we strive for. The horse's welfare comes before everything else, explains Fyrberg. - Having said that, I see this picture and it looks different. But I also can't take a stand or take any action on a single image. I don't know in what context it is taken. It's not the first time Patrik Kittel has been involved in something like this, is it? - I neither want nor can comment on any individual in this case. It would not be fair to the individual and the sport. Is it things like this that bring the whole sport of dressage into question? - It is about the whole horse welfare issue. We must always have horse welfare at the top of the agenda, it is about the credibility of equestrian sport and about the continued development of the sport. And survival in the sense of being involved in contexts like these, i.e. the Olympics. - At the competitions in Gothenburg last winter, we brought together the Nordic countries and made a joint letter to the FEI (International Equestrian Federation) specifically about horse welfare issues. The FEI needs to find processes for how horse welfare matters should be handled. Does our conversation here cause you to contact Patrik Kittel and discuss the picture I showed? - We have dialogues with each individual rider and the entire national team group. I can confirm that last spring I had a meeting with all the national teams, dressage, eventing and jumping, where I raised exactly this type of question.
The vet: "It's unacceptable"
Göran Åkerström is chief veterinarian at the International Equestrian Federation, FEI. He is horrified when the Express shows him the pictures of Touchdown's blue tongue: - It is undoubtedly a blue tongue on a horse. And blue tongues are unacceptable. Åkerström says that around five riders have been summoned for questioning in connection with the dressage competitions. They have been summoned because of pictures of blue tongues taken during qualifiers and competitions here in Versailles. - They have been informed of what we have seen and that we strongly distance ourselves from it. Is Patrik Kittel one of those riders? - I cannot comment on any names.
Chief veterinarian Göran Åkerström on equestrian sports' blue tongues
"The bar reins (the contact between the bit and the rider's hand, ed. note) have in hundreds of pictures, which I have looked at in the last few weeks around blue tongues, the common factor that they have been tightly tensioned. The rod bite presses against the tongue, impairs blood circulation and if it lasts long enough, the tongue turns blue. Something that is completely unacceptable. After studies, which we have done in the last few weeks, the working hypothesis is that we have to make the candar (the candar work is a special, unbroken bar bite with a strong leverage effect, ed. note) optional. The second is the review we are now doing of ethical training methods, the horse's form and equipment. These are parts of a 37-point action plan for horse welfare. The thing about blue tongues in particular is that when you release the pressure in the lower rein, thus easing the pressure, the pressure also eases on the tongue. Then the blood circulation returns and the horse looks completely normal.”
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
And in continuation of the above https://www.facebook.com/share/p/AV2AJytMHRVB8HrQ/
Notable from this (in the comments) is that the FEI (and, elsewhere, the Danish national federation vet has also said she uses photos when making assessments) uses 'moments in time' in making its own assessments of welfare issues, so anyone else who does so cannot be open to criticism.
Notable from this (in the comments) is that the FEI (and, elsewhere, the Danish national federation vet has also said she uses photos when making assessments) uses 'moments in time' in making its own assessments of welfare issues, so anyone else who does so cannot be open to criticism.
SaddlePsych'D
Well-Known Member
Interesting.
Annoyingly I've lost the page it popped up from on my FB feed but there was something about a vet stepping down from some Olympic committee. My reading of it was that he worked out they were more about talking the right talk but not actual concrete action to ensure horse welfare.
Now that the majority of horse sports are done for this Olympics, I am wondering what will come next. I do not particularly want to lose these sports at the Olympics but if it's back to business as usual then I say get rid. I have enjoyed some of it but amongst a lot of uncomfortable viewing. And that's just what is on the screen. I cannot say I have a lot of faith about what has gone on behind scenes.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
Agree 100%
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
I read something about that - was it the FEI's own Ethics and Wellbeing Commission? I can't find it now either.
SaddlePsych'D
Well-Known Member
Something like that. It wasn't on a page I followed and when I tried to go back to it, it was gone into the ether of FB!
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
So annoying when that happens!
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
You're correct, it was the Olympic welfare committee
KC31
Active Member
I imported one who has these. I had no idea that was what they used, awful piece of equipment and hindsight is a wonderful thing, should have bought him unbacked.
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
Good summary here I thought
eurodressage.com
La Vie en Or: Von Bredow-Werndl Conjures Kur Magic for Gold at the 2024 Olympic Games
German reigning Olympic champion Jessica von Bredow-Werndl worked her magic with a clever Kur strategy and nerves of steel to claim her second, consecutive individual gold medal at the 2024 Olympic Games.
WrongLeg
Well-Known Member
Did anyone notice that Mount St. John Freestyle ridden by the Danish
Cathrine Dufour was behind the vertical in the Olympic Freestyle?
It’s interesting to compare with the way CDJ rode this mare.
Catherine Dufour came top of the GP Special but dropped by the judges to 5th in the Freestyle.
I noticed Mount St. John Freestyle was so much more in front of the leg when ridden by CDJ & and actually had a better way of going.
Cathrine Dufour was behind the vertical in the Olympic Freestyle?
It’s interesting to compare with the way CDJ rode this mare.
Catherine Dufour came top of the GP Special but dropped by the judges to 5th in the Freestyle.
I noticed Mount St. John Freestyle was so much more in front of the leg when ridden by CDJ & and actually had a better way of going.
PoppyAnderson
Well-Known Member
The owner said on line that Freestyle was overwhelmed from the previous day and didn't perform her best consequently.
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
I felt that freestyle went in a softer outline and was moving more correctly with Catherine without the extravagant front leg movement which she showed with CDJ..her freestyle test wasn’t as good as her previous tests I agree with that.
PurpleSpots
Well-Known Member
Perhaps the two days back to back are an issue for Freestyle - lack of fitness to cope with the demands of the situation was the reason given for her not going to the 2020 (2021) games, and Gio (Pumpkin) going instead. Though a more extreme climate in Tokyo than Paris of course.
I was always dubious of this explanation, but maybe she tries so hard and gives so much that she tends to struggle to do two or more days of competitions in a row?
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
Sounds like this video was similar to what CDJ video was shown to contain
eurodressage.com
Cassoe Kruth Fined 670€ by DRF Disciplinary Committee After Video with Alleged Horse Abuse
The Disciplinary committee of the Danish Equestrian Federation (DRF) has ruled in the case of Carina Cassoe Kruth. After receiving a video with alleged horse abuse, it decided to fine the rider 5,000 DKK (670 euro).
eahotson
Well-Known Member
A small fine and no suspension. Really sends a message.Sounds like this video was similar to what CDJ video was shown to contain
Cassoe Kruth Fined 670€ by DRF Disciplinary Committee After Video with Alleged Horse Abuse
The Disciplinary committee of the Danish Equestrian Federation (DRF) has ruled in the case of Carina Cassoe Kruth. After receiving a video with alleged horse abuse, it decided to fine the rider 5,000 DKK (670 euro).