CDJ withdrawn from paris

[Lucky Snowball]

This thread has gone full circle - so how does CDJ get the horse more in front of the leg and with more extravagant front leg movements!!

 

[WrongLeg]

This thread has gone full circle - so how does CDJ get the horse more in front of the leg and with more extravagant front leg movements!!

Definitely not by using a stick in a way that makes the horse tense.
Horses lift their front legs when their hind legs step underneath them.
Charlotte achieves this by riding deep into the corner to set up the next movement.
It’s impossible to get the horse supple enough to lift their legs if they are tense.
You can use a stick to encourage rhythm, but it can’t work if the horse is scared.
The dutch lawyer admitted this on Sky news: Charlotte is a good rider but the video is an example of bad training.

 

[reynold]

Sadly I think that once the Olympics are over and after the inevitable delay before any FEI/BEF inquiry there will be little mainstream interest/press about CDJ.
This likely low press coverage probably means that nothing will change

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Sadly I think that once the Olympics are over and after the inevitable delay before any FEI/BEF inquiry there will be little mainstream interest/press about CDJ.
This likely low press coverage probably means that nothing will change

Unfortunately I think you are right.

I still need to put an email together to BD. Not expecting much from it but what else can I do? If this is the state of the world stage, I don't want British Dressage to be aiming for the top of it. I want to us to be proud of holding the highest ethical standards over the presence of medals. For all the 'horse first, sport second' out there, I think I'm probably in a minority there.

I finally caught up on the Olympics freestyle and it was pretty much as I thought. Some more enjoyable/pleasant tests to watch in the beginning with these dwindling towards the end as we get ever more unhappy looking horses at the top.

 

[Burnttoast]

Definitely not by using a stick in a way that makes the horse tense.
Horses lift their front legs when their hind legs step underneath them.
Charlotte achieves this by riding deep into the corner to set up the next movement.
It’s impossible to get the horse supple enough to lift their legs if they are tense.
You can use a stick to encourage rhythm, but it can’t work if the horse is scared.
The dutch lawyer admitted this on Sky news: Charlotte is a good rider but the video is an example of bad training.

The extravagant front legs come from a blocked back. It's literally produced by tension.

 

[splashgirl45]

I find it odd that more hasn’t come out about CDJ , you would think that, if this was her usual way of training, more people would have come forward. I would have liked to have seen the whole video to find out what made her do that . I believe the horse was owned by the person taking the video so why would they not have stopped her immediately, she wouldn’t have got a chance to hit a horse I owned more than once, let alone 24 times. Although CDJ has abused the horse , there is no question of that, it seems the owner was happy to let it continue , very odd IMO..

 

[Burnttoast]

I find it odd that more hasn’t come out about CDJ , you would think that, if this was her usual way of training, more people would have come forward. I would have liked to have seen the whole video to find out what made her do that . I believe the horse was owned by the person taking the video so why would they not have stopped her immediately, she wouldn’t have got a chance to hit a horse I owned more than once, let alone 24 times. Although CDJ has abused the horse , there is no question of that, it seems the owner was happy to let it continue , very odd IMO..

I think I've said this above but the only people with video evidence will be insiders and unless they are planning on giving up that status they are going to sit on it. This is why this kind of thing is so rare.

 

[splashgirl45]

I think I've said this above but the only people with video evidence will be insiders and unless they are planning on giving up that status they are going to sit on it. This is why this kind of thing is so rare.

When you say insiders , do you mean the people having lessons from her? If so I wouldn’t imagine they would be boasting about that so why would they not say something?

 

[Burnttoast]

When you say insiders , do you mean the people having lessons from her? If so I wouldn’t imagine they would be boasting about that so why would they not say something?

Dressage insiders generally. Owners, anyone allowed to get out a phone. Anyone who wants to be invited back! We all know there are lots of people who think this stuff is a normal part of training. They're all out there online saying 'I've seen worse'. They have nothing to gain by exposing stuff like this. Clearly some people even find it funny, not disturbing. There's a reason grooms in a lot of places have to sign NDAs and Helgstrand was exposed only as a result of covert filming. No one in the industry exposed him and the industry's done pretty much zero to stop him.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

Feels like owners have a lot to answer for here as well as those using the methods - sending people known for using dodgy methods these horses, expecting instant results etc

 

[PoppyAnderson]

Sadly I think that once the Olympics are over and after the inevitable delay before any FEI/BEF inquiry there will be little mainstream interest/press about CDJ.
This likely low press coverage probably means that nothing will change

Sadly, I think you're right but she'll never get the same welcome or support at competitions again. She'll never feel that excitement to see her or all eyes on her or that groundswell of support from the equestrian community.

 

[HollyWoozle]

https://www.facebook.com/eponatv/posts/pfbid0kWA7xG6ABXmB3xYaWNAMhBS5wruktsHQDMuf63owD6hqSvmiFw8JmwBjnJXSCaYdl

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Sadly, I think you're right but she'll never get the same welcome or support at competitions again. She'll never feel that excitement to see her or all eyes on her or that groundswell of support from the equestrian community.

I'm not so sure. Isabell Werth et al. appear to be doing just fine.

 

[splashgirl45]

Surely the status linked to a disgraced dressage rider would be non existent now

I think I've said this above but the only people with video evidence will be insiders and unless they are planning on giving up that status they are going to sit on it. This is why this kind of thing is so rare.

 

[Burnttoast]

Surely the status linked to a disgraced dressage rider would be non existent now

I wouldn't be so sure. There are lots of people defending her, people who would/will continue to train with her, and plenty of other riders who use similar training methods, including a few who've had videos come out concerning their conduct around horses and continue in the industry with plenty of supporters, as far as I know. The point is, whistleblowers are rarely welcomed back and a lot of the people we assume may have footage like this are not whistleblowers - they actually think this stuff is fine, ethically speaking, and are perfectly happy to witness it, so why would they bring it to light?

 

[WrongLeg]

This thread has gone full circle - so how does CDJ get the horse more in front of the leg and with more extravagant front leg movements!!

The extravagant front legs come from a blocked back. It's literally produced by tension.

..."for the supple play of the limbs ceases as soon as the horse feels annoyance"... (350 BC) Ξεναφών.

Big paces are a combination of whoa + go. Depends what you mean by ‘tension’.

Look at Carl Hester teaching…look/ feel any extended pace.

The hind leg must swing underneath the horse for the horse to able to extend the pace.

This cannot be achieved if the horse is tense in the hind/ not working over the back.
Whoa + Go…
Whoa with the seat/ tummy button & go (squeeze) with the legs & give with the hands.

In the show ring, I consistently got a better way of going mark than CDJ because CDJ used too much hand and not enough leg and therefore the pony’s paces were not as expressive.
CDJs riding has been transformed by Carl Hester - now she uses her legs and much much much less hand.

I used to ride deep into my corners and CDJ would try and cut me up by riding on the inside putting herself between me & the judge.
Now, she rides deep into her corners - Carl’s has made her unbeatable.

 

[splashgirl45]

I wouldn't be so sure. There are lots of people defending her, people who would/will continue to train with her, and plenty of other riders who use similar training methods, including a few who've had videos come out concerning their conduct around horses and continue in the industry with plenty of supporters, as far as I know. The point is, whistleblowers are rarely welcomed back and a lot of the people we assume may have footage like this are not whistleblowers - they actually think this stuff is fine, ethically speaking, and are perfectly happy to witness it, so why would they bring it to light?

If that is the case I’m pretty disgusted

 

[canteron]

The problem is that for many of the general public dressage and horse cruelty are the same thing, this will last for a generation.

BD can either address that or let the sport be viewed with disdain by anyone outside it.

And it would be a brave sponsor to back a dressage rider right now.

 

[Burnttoast]

..."for the supple play of the limbs ceases as soon as the horse feels annoyance"... (350 BC) Ξεναφών.

Big paces are a combination of whoa + go. Depends what you mean by ‘tension’.

Look at Carl Hester teaching…look/ feel any extended pace.

The hind leg must swing underneath the horse for the horse to able to extend the pace.

This cannot be achieved if the horse is tense in the hind/ not working over the back.
Whoa + Go…
Whoa with the seat/ tummy button & go (squeeze) with the legs & give with the hands.

In the show ring, I consistently got a better way of going mark than CDJ because CDJ used too much hand and not enough leg and therefore the pony’s paces were not as expressive.
CDJs riding has been transformed by Carl Hester - now she uses her legs and much much much less hand.

I used to ride deep into my corners and CDJ would try and cut me up by riding on the inside putting herself between me & the judge.
Now, she rides deep into her corners - Carl’s has made her unbeatable.

This may well be the theory and the correct way to make the most of the natural gaits but it's not how the leg movers in dressage are produced to give such flashy movement. Hyperflexion produces an enlarged brachiocephalic which creates the exaggerated front leg movement. Usually accompanied by DAP in the trot and often a 4-beat canter because the hyperflexion essentially means the horse is being ridden downhill and the hind leg is actually getting further and further behind the horse because the back is blocked.

 

[Orangehorse]

I have trained out of a TWH barn in Tennessee, the things I saw there, and also in Kentucky when I worked there surrounded by Saddlebred and Morgan trainers, will stay with me for the rest of my life. "Park" riding, AKA saddleseat, is some sort of travesty of Victorian era Rotten Row display riding, which is in itself a sort of parody of high school showing off, but without even the basics of gymnasticising the horse to enable it to perform the sort of showy movements desired. So instead of elevation, engagement and power, you get "high headedness" achieved by forcing the head up, and the corresponding hollow back. Instead of uphill paces you get rattles (solid wooden balls put around the shins), soring, chains, rubber straps, weighted shoes, etc., etc. to make them pick the legs up. To get the desired high tail carriage that goes with the head carriage you get muscles cut and tail "sets" worn 24 hours a day, ginger shoved up the anus. The poor Tennessee Walkers get even worse stuff done to them, and thus the nicest, most amenable horse breeds (along with Morgans and Arabians) are subjected to the most awful treatment.

I used to rehab 2 year olds (yes TWO YEAR OLDS) that had been discarded from Big Lick and Saddle Seat training, so I've ridden a few(dozens)....and my experience is why I know it is an awful way to train horses.

I am very sorry to hear of your bad experience in the USA. Yes, I can accept everything you say. My saddle seat riding experience was on a horse in the UK with an American visiting instructor. And over the years I watched other saddle seat riding instruction in the UK on UK owned and produced horses. It is very unusual to English eyes, but when I tried it on my own horse he adapted fine. As an upheaded breed my way of riding him like a TB served only to tip him onto his forehand and I spent years trying to get him out of that! So conformation does count too.

As simply a means of showing, like a hack or hunter, it was an adapted seat, which meant a strong core and good balance.

It seems that there are horrid things going on, simply to win competitions, and I do not condone that for a minute.

 

[Miss_Millie]

I used to think that the Equestrians It's Time to Act group was a small beacon of hope for top end competition, but it's gone to the dogs. Since the CDJ video was leaked, the cognitive dissonance and toxic positivity has disproportionately overridden what should be objective criticism. It's my impression that most people on that group care more about the sport than the horse, and the small number of people continuing to (rightly) criticise on posts are being name called.

Maybe that group isn't an accurate representation of the general horse-owning/riding demographic, but I have lost hope that change will come from within the industry, and will be relying on public opinion being the catalyst for change in the long run. In the meantime horses will continue to suffer for ego and medals.

For the first time I feel sorry for Charlotte Dujardian - she has been made the scapegoat and it's business as usual. Nothing has changed.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

I used to think that the Equestrians It's Time to Act group was a small beacon of hope for top end competition, but it's gone to the dogs. Since the CDJ video was leaked, the cognitive dissonance and toxic positivity has disproportionately overridden what should be objective criticism. It's my impression that most people on that group care more about the sport than the horse, and the small number of people continuing to (rightly) criticise on posts are being name called.

Maybe that group isn't an accurate representation of the general horse-owning/riding demographic, but I have lost hope that change will come from within the industry, and will be relying on public opinion being the catalyst for change in the long run. In the meantime horses will continue to suffer for ego and medals.

For the first time I feel sorry for Charlotte Dujardian - she has been made the scapegoat and it's business as usual. Nothing has changed.

I was relatively new in the group but also left in disappointment when it became clear we're all about the medals after all, and how people continuing important conversations were being told off for being too negative.

 

[Burnttoast]

I was relatively new in the group but also left in disappointment when it became clear we're all about the medals after all, and how people continuing important conversations were being told off for being too negative.

Same here

 

[misst]

I saw an article today about how Team GB had overcome the Charlotte Du Jardin Whipping Controversy. It basically said things were good now and the team had done so well to overcome the negativity of the scandal.... I do feel she is being scapegoated. She is by far not the worst. That does NOT mean I feel she should be able to continue as before or that what she did was in any way acceptable. I hope she is never allowed to compete again. But I also would like IW and Patrick Kittel and the endless list of people who ride horses in hyperflexion, blue tongued, train them horribly etc to be banned as well. Unfortunately the spin seems to be it's all ok now that terrible Charlotte is no longer in the frame :-(

 

[Miss_Millie]

I saw an article today about how Team GB had overcome the Charlotte Du Jardin Whipping Controversy. It basically said things were good now and the team had done so well to overcome the negativity of the scandal.... I do feel she is being scapegoated. She is by far not the worst. That does NOT mean I feel she should be able to continue as before or that what she did was in any way acceptable. I hope she is never allowed to compete again. But I also would like IW and Patrick Kittel and the endless list of people who ride horses in hyperflexion, blue tongued, train them horribly etc to be banned as well. Unfortunately the spin seems to be it's all ok now that terrible Charlotte is no longer in the frame :-(

And it also implies that winning medals signifies good welfare, when CJD herself was a multi gold medal winner and this year's winning horse had a blue tongue. It is all a nonsense.

 

[Bruce17]

Slightly off the current topic, but I was on Carl Hester's Web page earlier. It has clearly been updated recently as the Paris team bronze medal is listed on the results page. But i was interested to see that all reference to CDJ has been removed from the page, she doesn't appear in the photos of the team either.

She definitely used to be there as there was a whole section about Valegro.

Hmm

 

[Bobthecob15]

Slightly off the current topic, but I was on Carl Hester's Web page earlier. It has clearly been updated recently as the Paris team bronze medal is listed on the results page. But i was interested to see that all reference to CDJ has been removed from the page, she doesn't appear in the photos of the team either.

She definitely used to be there as there was a whole section about Valegro.

Hmm

His Instagram page also looks like it’s been cleaned of any photos of her…you have to scroll a long way down to find any photos of her (2021!) the PR people must be working hard!

 

[WrongLeg]

This may well be the theory and the correct way to make the most of the natural gaits but it's not how the leg movers in dressage are produced to give such flashy movement. Hyperflexion produces an enlarged brachiocephalic which creates the exaggerated front leg movement. Usually accompanied by DAP in the trot and often a 4-beat canter because the hyperflexion essentially means the horse is being ridden downhill and the hind leg is actually getting further and further behind the horse because the back is blocked.

That might be the way Glamourdale has been schooled…but you would be able to tell if Valegro, Fame, Nip Tuck, Mount St John Freestyle, Jagerbomb had been schooled like this.

These horses are consistently in front of the leg.

 

[TPO]

His Instagram page also looks like it’s been cleaned of any photos of her…you have to scroll a long way down to find any photos of her (2021!) the PR people must be working hard!

Can't say I blame them given how many whailing banshees on here were determined to libel him and accuse him of knowledge, involvement and willingly turning a blind eye.

This is only one microscopic section of the internet/social media so can hazard a guess as to what the rest of the unhinged were carrying on like.

 

[Bellaboo18]

I've been thinking of setting up a Facebook group after my disappoinment with the 'It's time to act group'. Basically a group where anyone can air their concerns. Any personal attacks, threats of violence etc would be removed and i'd ideally like people to discuss the behaviour/action and not the person/rider. I wouldn't allow any 'time to move on' comments and would say anyone's concerns are valid but I imagine in reality it would be near on impossible to manage!