CDJ withdrawn from paris

[HollyWoozle]

It all continues to be so depressing. I really thought the CDJ video would bring about some real consequences but it seems many people just got swept up in the excitement of the Olympics and went back to overlooking things. The fine for Carina is a joke and I expect we don't see much in the way of real punishment for CDJ either. And as for IW well, most people are celebrating her, the horse and the riding so here we are.

I know we are still talking about it and it's on the likes of Dressagehub etc but I feel like most of the world already decided to stop caring and now the wheel will just keep turning.

 

[Burnttoast]

A Danish newspaper has quite a bit of reporting on Helgstrand selling the German property bought 4 years ago, selling horses at clear-out prices, and this latest video, in which he's alleged to have said (not my trans.), referring to the hitting of the horse, "Then give it a proper one there, for hell"

Not to mention this (translate button at top rightish) https://nordjyske.dk/nyheder/leder/...vi-overveje-den-ultimative-konsekvens/5178648

ETA translation:
Dear equestrian. You end up like elephants in a circus

Something is rotten. And the bad excuses and excuses are in the queue For some, it is the symbol of the most beautiful symbiosis between humans and animals. For others, an incomprehensible display of something that looks neither natural nor desirable. Dressage is called one of the world's most difficult sports disciplines because it requires an almost unreasonable potpourri of qualities from both horse and rider. And perhaps the degree of difficulty is the very core of the overriding problem, which has now again erupted into the open. And where the bad excuses always line up. Both the North Jutland dressage rider Carina Cassøe Krüth and the British world star Charlotte Dujardin recently withdrew from competitions and thus also the Olympics, after leaked training videos revealed too violent treatment of their horses. In one of the videos, the businessman and dressage rider incites Andreas Helgstrand to whip a horse harder, Nordjuyske could subsequently reveal.

The International Equestrian Federation (FEI) has also found signs of mistreatment of horses at the Olympics, and the sports media Monitor has published a large number of images which, according to experts and veterinarians, show Danish dressage horses in potential extreme pain. Blue tongues, obvious sores and hyperflexion. And what does the Danish Riding Association say about that? Nothing. The association refuses to assess the images, as they do not "find the material sufficient." Extensive photo documentation and harsh criticism from leading experts is obviously not enough. It is far from the first time that cases of mistreatment of horses see the light of day. And the reaction of the riders who are caught in the act is the same every time: They either keep their mouths shut - unlike their blue-tongued horses - or excuse themselves that it was an isolated mistake that does not reflect how they normally "train" their horses. The same predictable song. The most paradoxical thing in all this is that the equine community is generally known to care categorically for the horses' well-being. Because horses are seen as sentient and intelligent beings that must be treated with dignity and respect. We saw it, among other things, in the case of John Byrialsen and his controversial Viegård Stutteri. We saw it when a mole in Operation X, using hidden footage, revealed horses being mistreated in one of Helgstrand Dressage's stables. The outrage would never end, but it is as if the love and respect for the sentient beings crackles when we move up into the upper air layer of equestrian sports. Not for everyone, but for far too many. Then the horse becomes a mechanical tool for obtaining honours, money, medals and rosettes. A tool that you can push to extreme performance without thought or consequences. Cost what it will. If the equestrian sport itself is not able to deal with the rotten culture, which apparently prevails with a little too many of its top athletes, we must thoroughly and soberly discuss whether dressage has a future as a recognized sporting discipline. Otherwise, like killer whales in an amusement park or elephants in a circus, we will look back and say: What on earth were you thinking? When will this circus stop? This is a leader. It was written by a member of our board of directors and expresses Nordjutske's position.

 

[tristars]

Possibly one is not allowed to do these things to an animals in a slaughterhouse?

 

[shortstuff99]

Interesting comments on who the owner of the voice is in the background telling her to hit the horse harder.....

 

[ester]

I already dropped that albeit trusting what other people were saying.

 

[shortstuff99]

I already dropped that albeit trusting what other people were saying.

Ah sorry missed that! I wonder if it was released especially as they were recently so heavily defended.

 

[southerncomfort]

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/XgfHkpvdt5eN7sCp/

 

[Jenko109]

I have not read the replies for a long time on this post, however I am concerned about what this has done to public perception.

I have seen a few posts recently of very basic dressage. I mean amateur riders doing basic walk, trot, canter tests.

On these posts I've seen comments indicating that all horses are trained with lashings of the whip.

It is concerning for sure.

 

[blitznbobs]

Ok I have been in the dressage world since the 80s and a lot has changed… but although I have seen abuse occasionally, the VAST majority of people who ride dressage horses I have met love their horses and treat them with kindness and respect. MOST abuse I have witness is of the over rugging, over feeding and under exercise kind - killing with kindness if you will . Actual physical beating a horse I have seen a couple of times and both times the owner removed the horse quickly from the so called professional. But trying to paint all dressage riders as people who use rollkur and beat their horses is just not true. Most amateurs don’t have the inclination or indeed the skill to do it. More what I see is bitting specialist this and saddle specialist that and ‘do you think this half pad will make him more comfy etc etc.

Perspective in all things..

 

[oldie48]

Further to Blitznbobs post, which I wholeheartedly agree with, most professionals IME do not use rollkur or beat their horses. Sadly there are some owners/riders who mistreat their horses but they are few and certainly not confined to dressage or any other discipline. I was at the Olympics for every day of the dressage in very good seats. The atmosphere was pretty electric but most horses coped very well, clearly they had trusting relationships with their rider and they were ridden sympathetically. I don't think this was achieved by mistreatment! I was accompanied by a judge and we both thought that horses were generally being ridden in a slightly more open frame. I have never been a fan of EW but even her horse was ridden in a much more open frame than is usually the case. Achieving relaxation in such a big atmosphere would be difficult, I doubt any of my horses would have coped, so if some of the horses showed a bit of tension, it's hardly surprising. The question of whether it is fair to subject horses to that level of competition, is, I think, a different question, but I salute those riders who were able to ride a GP test with an open frame and little sign of tension and we saw plenty who did. I also salute those who found their horses found the atmosphere difficult initially but were able to show some good work as their test progressed. Success comes in many forms and isn't always measured by winning a medal. It is also of note that the spectators did not always help the situation and neither did the judge at C who rang the bell at times when a rider was next to her! We sat next to and talked to a variety of different people during the competition, many knew nothing about dressage but hopefully they went home with a bit more understanding of what was involved after chatting to my friend.

 

[Supertrooper]

I went to spectate at the National showjumping championships at the weekend and was incredibly disappointed with how much whipping was going on in nearly every class. Any refusal was met with smacks to the horse and use of spurs, not as an aid but as punishment

This was 13-15 year old children. Who’s parents would then chastise them for not getting the pony going more forward, telling them to take it into the warm up and get after it

I’ve complained to the organisers but I doubt anything will come of it

 

[Darcey69]

I went to spectate at the National showjumping championships at the weekend and was incredibly disappointed with how much whipping was going on in nearly every class. Any refusal was met with smacks to the horse and use of spurs, not as an aid but as punishment

This was 13-15 year old children. Who’s parents would then chastise them for not getting the pony going more forward, telling them to take it into the warm up and get after it

I’ve complained to the organisers but I doubt anything will come of it

Read the whip rules from the BS handbook and if you feel they were breached make a big fuss. BS whip and spurs rules are now very strict and as someone who "stewards" we have had a big educational push in our region to ensure judges are really up to speed. The warm-up steward should also be telling the judge if they see anything out of order.

 

[shortstuff99]

In riding club rules any whip use after a refusal is excessive use. You can have a tap on the shoulder once you are representing and going forward.

 

[Supertrooper]

These were two smacks on horses bum but very heavy. And OH saw horses being hit on flanks.

 

[shortstuff99]

Cassoe Kruth Temporarily Excluded from Danish National Team and Squad

Carina Cassoe Kruth, Danish 2022 WEG team gold and 2023 European team bronze medal winning rider, has been temporarily excluded from the Danish national team and squad.

eurodressage.com

 

[AWinter]

Read the whip rules from the BS handbook and if you feel they were breached make a big fuss. BS whip and spurs rules are now very strict and as someone who "stewards" we have had a big educational push in our region to ensure judges are really up to speed. The warm-up steward should also be telling the judge if they see anything out of order.

The fact we even have “whip rules” is a bit ridiculous. Trying to tell people horse sport is kind and the horses love it while being allowed to strike them with a whip under rules as long as it’s not too many times….the sport is just killing itself. Banning whips and spurs would be low hanging fruit but you’ll have to pry them from people’s cold dead hands it seems.

 

[Miss_Millie]

The fact we even have “whip rules” is a bit ridiculous. Trying to tell people horse sport is kind and the horses love it while being allowed to strike them with a whip under rules as long as it’s not too many times….the sport is just killing itself. Banning whips and spurs would be low hanging fruit but you’ll have to pry them from people’s cold dead hands it seems.

Well said, if you can't get your horse forward enough without using a whip as a crutch, maybe you aren't good enough to compete and need to go back to the basics.

 

[PurpleSpots]

Well said, if you can't get your horse forward enough without using a whip as a crutch, maybe you aren't good enough to compete and need to go back to the basics.

Or maybe there's a good reason why the horse doesn't want to/can't go forwards enough.

 

[cauda equina]

Perhaps we should reconsider our ideas about what is 'enough'

 

[Darcey69]

The fact we even have “whip rules” is a bit ridiculous. Trying to tell people horse sport is kind and the horses love it while being allowed to strike them with a whip under rules as long as it’s not too many times….the sport is just killing itself. Banning whips and spurs would be low hanging fruit but you’ll have to pry them from people’s cold dead hands it seems.

I think you're just using emotive words there - "strike them with a whip". It shouldn't be like that. We're not just wandering around "striking" horses, or kicking them with spurs - and anyone who does is wrong. However, if we're jumping then I might give them a tap on the shoulder if we're coming into a combination to get attention, I might give a flick or a touch behind the leg if I'm trying to get a good canter strike off from a green horse or a slightly inattentive horse. Continual leg use by the rider is no good, it just dulls and blurs the instruction. BS has stopped using the word "whip" and now uses "padded baton". We're shouldn't be "whipping" horses or ever "punishing" horses. However we should be directing them or guiding them or teaching them to get the right response. If I'm jumping a course with my partner "the horse" then only one of us has jumped the course and I might occasionally need to say "come on, pay attention, little more energy needed here please". And when we jump, I only want a partner whose as enthusiastic as me, otherwise I've got the wrong horse. People need to listen to horses and only partner up with them to do the things or sports they enjoy doing. Whipping should never never happen. Hopefully we're moving in that direction.

 

[Cortez]

The fact we even have “whip rules” is a bit ridiculous. Trying to tell people horse sport is kind and the horses love it while being allowed to strike them with a whip under rules as long as it’s not too many times….the sport is just killing itself. Banning whips and spurs would be low hanging fruit but you’ll have to pry them from people’s cold dead hands it seems.

Anyone who "strikes" anything with a whip should have it removed from them, however like many things it's how you use an item that is relevant. You can use a scalpel to inflict harm, or you can use it to effect a cure, if you're a skilled and qualified surgeon for instance. Whips, spurs, bits, all have their place in training horses: they are tools not weapons in the right hands.

ETA: I'd never tell anyone that horses love being ridden or competed, that is something that every rider should understand: we do it because we want to, not for the sake of the horse.

 

[tristars]

If it was dogs being beaten, thrashed with whips, stabbed with spurs and having their mouths bloodied and the circulation cut off in their tongues in public,would interesting to see how soon it would be stopped, and those horses shown recently are actually working,, but the people want more, even want blood, the saddest part is the horse will give what you want if only you know how to ask for it and give it the chance , I saw somewhere an American horse behaviourist giving her opinion of paris dressage one rider lyle I think rode the whole test in rollkur! what bit I saw was certainly over bent. and that is what we have seen thrashing, it's not a tickle its a beating, it's not a touch on the quarters it's an ill tempered reaction because they don't know how to get what they want and blame the horse, and some of those horses breathing is off the scale! Pure terror I would like to know the heart rate

 

[Cortez]

If it was dogs being beaten, thrashed with whips, stabbed with spurs and having their mouths bloodied and the circulation cut off in their tongues in public,would interesting to see how soon it would be stopped, and those horses shown recently are actually working,, but the people want more, even want blood, the saddest part is the horse will give what you want if only you know how to ask for it and give it the chance , I saw somewhere an American horse behaviourist giving her opinion of paris dressage one rider lyle I think rode the whole test in rollkur! what bit I saw was certainly over bent. and that is what we have seen thrashing, it's not a tickle its a beating, it's not a touch on the quarters it's an ill tempered reaction because they don't know how to get what they want and blame the horse, and some of those horses breathing is off the scale! Pure terror I would like to know the heart rate

Where did you see thrashing and stabbing at the Olympics? And who "wants blood"? Where's the source for that? I'm wholly on board for stopping abuse, but the sort of overt stuff you're claiming is not the real problem, it's the normalisation of corrupted training that permeates all the competitive horse sports that is the most widespread and insidious, and the hardest to stop IMO.

 

[tristars]

I've been saying for years the training is the problem

 

[blitznbobs]

If it was dogs being beaten, thrashed with whips, stabbed with spurs and having their mouths bloodied and the circulation cut off in their tongues in public,would interesting to see how soon it would be stopped, and those horses shown recently are actually working,, but the people want more, even want blood, the saddest part is the horse will give what you want if only you know how to ask for it and give it the chance , I saw somewhere an American horse behaviourist giving her opinion of paris dressage one rider lyle I think rode the whole test in rollkur! what bit I saw was certainly over bent. and that is what we have seen thrashing, it's not a tickle its a beating, it's not a touch on the quarters it's an ill tempered reaction because they don't know how to get what they want and blame the horse, and some of those horses breathing is off the scale! Pure terror I would like to know the heart rate

As opposed to prong collars, electrified collars and fighting dogs against other dogs … none of which is allowed of course but emotive language for the sake of it is rarely helpful and actually gives ammo to the abusers

 

[Supertrooper]

The fact we even have “whip rules” is a bit ridiculous. Trying to tell people horse sport is kind and the horses love it while being allowed to strike them with a whip under rules as long as it’s not too many times….the sport is just killing itself. Banning whips and spurs would be low hanging fruit but you’ll have to pry them from people’s cold dead hands it seems.

My OH who is not horsey was absolutely gobsmacked, and disgusted that there has to be rules that state how many times you are allowed to hit a horse.

And I don’t blame him!

 

[tristars]

In an interview Alice fox Pitt was saying that whips do not break the skin, I have seen a horse whipped three times with a schooling whip and left with a long cut and blood on its flank

I dare say some those horses videod had wheals
or cuts after the beatings the sheer noise they are making is a horses way of screaming I would think they felt a little emotional

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

In an interview Alice fox Pitt was saying that whips do not break the skin, I have seen a horse whipped three times with a schooling whip and left with a long cut and blood on its flank

I dare say some those horses videod had wheals
or cuts after the beatings the sheer noise they are making is a horses way of screaming I would think they felt a little emotional

Acknowledging I don't have the context of her comment, but it's an interesting thing to say. Something doesn't have to break skin to cause pain or suffering.

A bit like with the blue tongue thing. I feel that's at such an end of a scale, the diversion about is it blue or is it not is so unhelpful because by the time you've got to a blue tongue multiple other things have to be happening which are also highly likely to be causing pain/tension/distress to the horse.

 

[Burnttoast]

In the context of blue tongues allegedly being photoshopped by welfare activists, this cover is simultaneously hilarious for its incompetence and amazingly offensive ... couldn't find a pic where he looked happy in the contact I guess.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Oh, good grief, H&H have (badly) photoshopped the mouth for their cover pic, haven't they .