CDJ withdrawn from paris

Burnttoast

Well-Known Member
Joined
15 March 2009
Messages
2,509
Visit site
Here's the original https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detai...ith-horse-news-photo/2165318230?adppopup=true

So that's the removal of boot polish marks, the froth, and something off with the mouth, oh and the arena decorations.
Thanks, I wondered about that but should be working, not chasing photos around the internet. The irony is the mouth they've covered up isn't nearly as damning as many seen in that competition, and yet their amateurish and probably unnecessary tampering makes it look like they are trying to cover something awful up (and people will certainly think that I'm sure)
 

PurpleSpots

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 April 2024
Messages
184
Visit site
Thanks, I wondered about that but should be working, not chasing photos around the internet. The irony is the mouth they've covered up isn't nearly as damning as many seen in that competition, and yet their amateurish and probably unnecessary tampering makes it look like they are trying to cover something awful up (and people will certainly think that I'm sure)

I think the original looks better - in the photoshopped one you could argue he looks to have a dry mouth 🤷‍♀️ .
 

Jenko109

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 July 2020
Messages
1,673
Visit site
Just to lighten the mood. Here are some children's perspectives on the equestrian Olympics

 

AWinter

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 February 2021
Messages
191
Visit site
I think you're just using emotive words there - "strike them with a whip". It shouldn't be like that. We're not just wandering around "striking" horses, or kicking them with spurs - and anyone who does is wrong. However, if we're jumping then I might give them a tap on the shoulder if we're coming into a combination to get attention, I might give a flick or a touch behind the leg if I'm trying to get a good canter strike off from a green horse or a slightly inattentive horse. Continual leg use by the rider is no good, it just dulls and blurs the instruction. BS has stopped using the word "whip" and now uses "padded baton". We're shouldn't be "whipping" horses or ever "punishing" horses. However we should be directing them or guiding them or teaching them to get the right response. If I'm jumping a course with my partner "the horse" then only one of us has jumped the course and I might occasionally need to say "come on, pay attention, little more energy needed here please". And when we jump, I only want a partner whose as enthusiastic as me, otherwise I've got the wrong horse. People need to listen to horses and only partner up with them to do the things or sports they enjoy doing. Whipping should never never happen. Hopefully we're moving in that direction.

Anyone who "strikes" anything with a whip should have it removed from them, however like many things it's how you use an item that is relevant. You can use a scalpel to inflict harm, or you can use it to effect a cure, if you're a skilled and qualified surgeon for instance. Whips, spurs, bits, all have their place in training horses: they are tools not weapons in the right hands.

ETA: I'd never tell anyone that horses love being ridden or competed, that is something that every rider should understand: we do it because we want to, not for the sake of the horse.

That’s not what I said though, I simply said you are allowed to strike a horse with a whip under rules, what you personally would or wouldn’t do doesn’t really matter, it is allowed under rules. As I said, the sport will kill itself it doesn’t really matter what I think.
 

Cortez

Tough but Fair
Joined
17 January 2009
Messages
15,576
Location
Ireland
Visit site
That’s not what I said though, I simply said you are allowed to strike a horse with a whip under rules, what you personally would or wouldn’t do doesn’t really matter, it is allowed under rules. As I said, the sport will kill itself it doesn’t really matter what I think.
You are allowed to use a whip, you are not allowed to misuse one. There is a difference, and it is stated in the rules what the difference is.
 

khalswitz

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 May 2012
Messages
3,623
Location
South of Scotland
Visit site
I actually have a student this year who is looking at public perception of equestrian sport through the lens of the Olympics (proposal submitted in April so before it became quite this topical!). I’m not allowed to share the link according to HHO terms of service but do keep an eye out in case you see it being distributed on social media - I’m really excited about this project and hope we get some interesting results. I do think it has come more into the public eye than before and it will be interesting seeing what people think.
 

Darcey69

Member
Joined
19 January 2024
Messages
17
Visit site
That’s not what I said though, I simply said you are allowed to strike a horse with a whip under rules, what you personally would or wouldn’t do doesn’t really matter, it is allowed under rules. As I said, the sport will kill itself it doesn’t really matter what I think.
I find it so sad when the feeling I get from Horse and Hound forum members who should be anti-bad riding and poor horse management is that they are not noticing the improvement that is happening at the rate of an express train. As someone who is involved with training of British Show jumping rules to competitors and I work with judges and show secretaries, the change in attitude is breathtaking. I used to feel I was the only one that saw horse being hit really hard when they stopped, or they were pulled about in the warm-up. But a few years later, this stuff is just a red-hot topic and my goodness the show centres and higher level officials are focused on it like you wouldn't believe. These rules for the treatment of horses are going to get stronger and stronger each year because this is the future. And if showjumping (and presumably all horse sports) are to have a future, then it will be based on a horse and rider partnership the like of which we have seldom seen before. Whips and spurs and the use of them are being tackled now, but bridles and bits are coming fast. When we introduced the padded baton, John Whitaker said that he didn't like it because he couldn't hit his horse hard enough for the horse to notice. I bet he wouldn't say that now. These attitudes need to change and they are, they really are.
 

Crazy_cat_lady

Well-Known Member
Joined
14 January 2012
Messages
7,476
Visit site
I did wonder if the photo was photoshopped when it was posted on here last night but thought surely not. Turns out it is!

The original doesn't even look that bad to need this level of modification and if you're having to modify it to make it look palatable, you then ask the question of ethics

Feels like HH is trying to brush welfare complaints under the carpet
 

WrongLeg

Well-Known Member
Joined
22 September 2021
Messages
113
Visit site
I found this from Carl Hester re:use of the whip for schooling canter. This seems to be what Charlotte is aiming at.

Addressing a rider seeking more "jump" in her horse's canter--in preparation for pirouette--Carl emphasized careful timing of the tap on the hindquarters. In this case, a light tap on the hindquarters timed with a slight rein release brought a nice forward response. However, the horse's response to the collect cue needed more activity and better rhythm. "Collection is not slowing down," Carl stressed. Working on a 20-meter circle at the canter, the rider was asked to make a "little touch" every two or three strides to help get the jump he wanted in collection. Half-halts were added approximately every 10 meters on the circle, reinforced with a "tick tick" of the whip again, to get that jump. The ultimate goal is for the tick of the whip to become a tick of the heel that generates the same quality of response.

Practical Horseman.
 

Burnttoast

Well-Known Member
Joined
15 March 2009
Messages
2,509
Visit site
I found this from Carl Hester re:use of the whip for schooling canter. This seems to be what Charlotte is aiming at.

Addressing a rider seeking more "jump" in her horse's canter--in preparation for pirouette--Carl emphasized careful timing of the tap on the hindquarters. In this case, a light tap on the hindquarters timed with a slight rein release brought a nice forward response. However, the horse's response to the collect cue needed more activity and better rhythm. "Collection is not slowing down," Carl stressed. Working on a 20-meter circle at the canter, the rider was asked to make a "little touch" every two or three strides to help get the jump he wanted in collection. Half-halts were added approximately every 10 meters on the circle, reinforced with a "tick tick" of the whip again, to get that jump. The ultimate goal is for the tick of the whip to become a tick of the heel that generates the same quality of response.

Practical Horseman.
Surely that describes the rider using a schooling whip in a carefully timed and judicious way, not someone on the ground walloping in an uncoordinated way with a lunge whip?
 

canteron

Well-Known Member
Joined
15 October 2008
Messages
3,919
Location
Cloud Cockoo Land
Visit site
I find it so sad when the feeling I get from Horse and Hound forum members who should be anti-bad riding and poor horse management is that they are not noticing the improvement that is happening at the rate of an express train. As someone who is involved with training of British Show jumping rules to competitors and I work with judges and show secretaries, the change in attitude is breathtaking. I used to feel I was the only one that saw horse being hit really hard when they stopped, or they were pulled about in the warm-up. But a few years later, this stuff is just a red-hot topic and my goodness the show centres and higher level officials are focused on it like you wouldn't believe. These rules for the treatment of horses are going to get stronger and stronger each year because this is the future. And if showjumping (and presumably all horse sports) are to have a future, then it will be based on a horse and rider partnership the like of which we have seldom seen before. Whips and spurs and the use of them are being tackled now, but bridles and bits are coming fast. When we introduced the padded baton, John Whitaker said that he didn't like it because he couldn't hit his horse hard enough for the horse to notice. I bet he wouldn't say that now. These attitudes need to change and they are, they really are.
This is really good to hear.
Sadly, they are not good at publicising this, we have all seen horrible things in the past, and the riders have been let of with a little ‘naughty boy’ reprimand.
Even coming on here and pointing this out, is IMO long overdue, as you say it is easy to spot the bad things, not notice the good things and direction of travel.
So thank you, lets hope it continues and that it really filters down, in quite a loud voice, to even the smallest venues.
 

equinerebel

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 May 2023
Messages
1,158
Visit site
Urgh, the whip rhetoric is getting tiring quickly. It is a whip, we do hit the horse with it. A horse can feel a fly land on its skin, even a tap with a whip is highly effective - that’s why we use it.

Training horses is rooted in negative reinforcement.

It doesn’t help to change the language and make it look nicer. It isn’t nicer. We hit prey animals with whips. That’s the bottom line.

But everyone is free to tell themselves whatever they want if it helps them to feel better.
 

ramsaybailey

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 May 2017
Messages
123
Visit site
I found this from Carl Hester re:use of the whip for schooling canter. This seems to be what Charlotte is aiming at.

Addressing a rider seeking more "jump" in her horse's canter--in preparation for pirouette--Carl emphasized careful timing of the tap on the hindquarters. In this case, a light tap on the hindquarters timed with a slight rein release brought a nice forward response. However, the horse's response to the collect cue needed more activity and better rhythm. "Collection is not slowing down," Carl stressed. Working on a 20-meter circle at the canter, the rider was asked to make a "little touch" every two or three strides to help get the jump he wanted in collection. Half-halts were added approximately every 10 meters on the circle, reinforced with a "tick tick" of the whip again, to get that jump. The ultimate goal is for the tick of the whip to become a tick of the heel that generates the same quality of response.

Practical Horseman.

That doesn't read at all like what Charlotte was doing in that video?
 

planete

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 May 2010
Messages
3,380
Location
New Forest
Visit site
Urgh, the whip rhetoric is getting tiring quickly. It is a whip, we do hit the horse with it. A horse can feel a fly land on its skin, even a tap with a whip is highly effective - that’s why we use it.

Training horses is rooted in negative reinforcement.

It doesn’t help to change the language and make it look nicer. It isn’t nicer. We hit prey animals with whips. That’s the bottom line.

But everyone is free to tell themselves whatever they want if it helps them to feel better.
I must respectfully disagree. Mild pressure as a request to invite cooperation seems to me a reasonable way to communicate with an animal. Pressure has been demonised and yet we all expect certain behaviours of each other to make society function in a civilised manner. That is pressure. We teach our domestic animals safe behaviours which enable them to be our companions, that is pressure too. Objecting to that is tantamount to saying we should give up keeping any domestic animal. A precise touch with the tip of the whip to ask for a leg to be moved across for instance is what using a whip as an aid should be. There is no hitting. Very often it does not even need to actually make contact. Yes, it is pressure, but abuse it is not.
 

clairebearnz

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 January 2011
Messages
286
Visit site
this video is on several sites showing the effect of over bending (rollkur) on the skeleton. It is the first post on this FB page and is a video of about 6 mins.

Just FYI, she has no formal training in anatomy and also is well known in her local area for neglecting horses. Take that information as you will.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TPO

WrongLeg

Well-Known Member
Joined
22 September 2021
Messages
113
Visit site
Using a
Urgh, the whip rhetoric is getting tiring quickly. It is a whip, we do hit the horse with it. A horse can feel a fly land on its skin, even a tap with a whip is highly effective - that’s why we use it.

Training horses is rooted in negative reinforcement.

It doesn’t help to change the language and make it look nicer. It isn’t nicer. We hit prey animals with whips. That’s the bottom line.

But everyone is free to tell themselves whatever they want if it helps them to feel better.
From the horse’s POV, rewards with a carrot is -ve reinforcement, because you are putting pressure on them/ frustrating them by withholding the carrot until they respond correctly to the aid.
 

equinerebel

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 May 2023
Messages
1,158
Visit site
Objecting to that is tantamount to saying we should give up keeping any domestic animal.
No, it’s not.

If it wasn’t clear, I am referring to hitting horses with whips, not light touches to ask them to step over.

A smack on the shoulder as you’re approaching a fence. A smack behind to get them past a scary gate. A smack to get more expression in your trot because you know it’s nicer than constantly putting the leg on or using spurs. A smack to get them to move faster to win the race. They are smacks however light we want to tell ourselves they are.

Let’s call a spade a spade and work together to improve the lives of these wonderfully compliant animals we ask so much from.
 
Top