CDJ withdrawn from paris

[little_critter]

Here's the original https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detai...ith-horse-news-photo/2165318230?adppopup=true

So that's the removal of boot polish marks, the froth, and something off with the mouth, oh and the arena decorations.

And the red visible in the nostril.

 

[paddy555]

Just FYI, she has no formal training in anatomy and also is well known in her local area for neglecting horses. Take that information as you will.

which part of the video do you consider to be incorrect (technically) ?

 

[WrongLeg]

That doesn't read at all like what Charlotte was doing in that video?

I was comparing the aim not the method/ use of whip

The aim was to ask for a ‘jump’ in canter.

Surely that describes the rider using a schooling whip in a carefully timed and judicious way, not someone on the ground walloping in an uncoordinated way with a lunge whip?

I think this describes what Charlotte was ‘aiming for’ and is quite obviously not what she was doing.

The video demonstrates what happens when an inexpert trainer does not get the response they are aiming for.

A light tap of the stick probably worked for Carl and Charlotte at home
because they had done the groundwork with the horse they are schooling from day 1.

 

[Aleka81]

As opposed to prong collars, electrified collars and fighting dogs against other dogs … none of which is allowed of course but emotive language for the sake of it is rarely helpful and actually gives ammo to the abusers

Prong and e collars are legal to use in England...

 

[KEK]

Using a

From the horse’s POV, rewards with a carrot is -ve reinforcement, because you are putting pressure on them/ frustrating them by withholding the carrot until they respond correctly to the aid.

Huh? Negative reinforcement training is putting pressure on to cause the behaviour, then the ceasing of the pressure is the reinforcement. The behaviour increases. Rewarding behaviour with food is positive reinforcement. The animal offers the behaviour, you reward.The behaviour increases. The animal might get frustrated, depending on how good a trainer you are, timing, set up, reward placement etc etc. In dog training we do lots to help with this, trying somewhat to aim for error less learning (especially in the early /teaching phases).
Positive punishment is adding a undesired consequence to stop the behaviour. Behaviour decreases.
Horse training is so, so different to how we train dogs. It still makes me sad sometimes. I never use anything but positive reinforcement to train my dogs, but I don't know how to do this with my pony although I do my best with multiple treat breaks throughout his sessions. It's not the same, though, as the timing isn't correct and we can't get positive reinforcement instantly to the horses like I do with my dogs.

 

[little_critter]

Huh? Negative reinforcement training is putting pressure on to cause the behaviour, then the ceasing of the pressure is the reinforcement. The behaviour increases. Rewarding behaviour with food is positive reinforcement. The animal offers the behaviour, you reward.The behaviour increases. The animal might get frustrated, depending on how good a trainer you are, timing, set up, reward placement etc etc. In dog training we do lots to help with this, trying somewhat to aim for error less learning (especially in the early /teaching phases).
Positive punishment is adding a undesired consequence to stop the behaviour. Behaviour decreases.
Horse training is so, so different to how we train dogs. It still makes me sad sometimes. I never use anything but positive reinforcement to train my dogs, but I don't know how to do this with my pony although I do my best with multiple treat breaks throughout his sessions. It's not the same, though, as the timing isn't correct and we can't get positive reinforcement instantly to the horses like I do with my dogs.

My trainer uses positive reinforcement with her horses. She uses a ‘bridge’ clicker or word to mark the behaviour which buys her a moment to get the treat to the horse.

 

[ester]

I was comparing the aim not the method/ use of whip

The aim was to ask for a ‘jump’ in canter.

I think this describes what Charlotte was ‘aiming for’ and is quite obviously not what she was doing.

The video demonstrates what happens when an inexpert trainer does not get the response they are aiming for.

A light tap of the stick probably worked for Carl and Charlotte at home
because they had done the groundwork with the horse they are schooling from day 1.

Oh we know what she was aiming for I don't think that was ever in question? but it just seemed a weird equivalence.

 

[Cortez]

Huh? Negative reinforcement training is putting pressure on to cause the behaviour, then the ceasing of the pressure is the reinforcement. The behaviour increases. Rewarding behaviour with food is positive reinforcement. The animal offers the behaviour, you reward.The behaviour increases. The animal might get frustrated, depending on how good a trainer you are, timing, set up, reward placement etc etc. In dog training we do lots to help with this, trying somewhat to aim for error less learning (especially in the early /teaching phases).
Positive punishment is adding a undesired consequence to stop the behaviour. Behaviour decreases.
Horse training is so, so different to how we train dogs. It still makes me sad sometimes. I never use anything but positive reinforcement to train my dogs, but I don't know how to do this with my pony although I do my best with multiple treat breaks throughout his sessions. It's not the same, though, as the timing isn't correct and we can't get positive reinforcement instantly to the horses like I do with my dogs.

Horses and dogs are completely different in the way they process and respond to things. I train my dogs in very different way to how I train horses, dogs are much more food and praise orientated, horses are more process and repetition focussed. Cattle are different again, and mules are on a planet all their own.....communicated to by beings unknown to science. I've had a hand in training many different animals* to do some quite strange things for film and TV, it's fascinating learning how to communicate things to disparate natures.

ETA: *walloping doesn't work with any of them.

 

[blitznbobs]

Prong and e collars are legal to use in England...

My mistake - but not much uproar about them so kinda backs up the point I was making and not exactly positive reinforcement

 

[WrongLeg]

My trainer uses positive reinforcement with her horses. She uses a ‘bridge’ clicker or word to mark the behaviour which buys her a moment to get the treat to the horse.

Exactly.
association + exact timing changes everything.

So by saying ‘good girl’ and feeding the carrot/ scratching you teach them to associate the ‘good girl’ with rewards
…and then when you are schooling, say ‘good girl’ scratch the neck/ withers with the inside hand.

This is how we use +ve reinforcement when schooling.

So the stick could become +ve reinforcement if you associate a stick touching the leg with a carrot.

So use of a whip is not necessarily -ve reinforcement - it can be +ve.
…
eventually, you only need to use the stick as the aid and say good girl.

(only ever hand feed when they are looking away from you…step back, otherwise you inadvertently teach pushy behaviour).

 

[I'm Dun]

My mistake - but not much uproar about them so kinda backs up the point I was making and not exactly positive reinforcement

Electric collars were banned earlier this year, so you were right about those.

 

[skinnydipper]

Electric collars were banned earlier this year, so you were right about those.

Not banned in England

 

[teapot]

Electric collars were banned earlier this year, so you were right about those.

It never went through I don't think.

 

[skinnydipper]

Debated and approved by HoL June 2023. HoC has not yet approved the legislation.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

Horses and dogs are completely different in the way they process and respond to things. I train my dogs in very different way to how I train horses, dogs are much more food and praise orientated, horses are more process and repetition focussed. Cattle are different again, and mules are on a planet all their own.....communicated to by beings unknown to science. I've had a hand in training many different animals* to do some quite strange things for film and TV, it's fascinating learning how to communicate things to disparate natures.

ETA: *walloping doesn't work with any of them.

I know this is absolutely nothing to do with this thread but I'm curious....in what way are mules different to train? Are they tricky? I've never come across one.

 

[clairebearnz]

which part of the video do you consider to be incorrect (technically) ?

I haven't watched it because I don't want to provide income to someone I know mistreats animals. However, I didn't say anything about the information she provided, only that she didn't have formal training.

 

[I'm Dun]

I know this is absolutely nothing to do with this thread but I'm curious....in what way are mules different to train? Are they tricky? I've never come across one.

Not tricky if you work with them, but just totally different. I love them. I had to go out and help a friend with one she was looking after as it had got the measure of her and was refusing to do anything. Super, super smart little mule, very sweet natured but no way on earth would you have forced her to do anything and even at 2yr old she could suss people out in seconds. Asking and giving very clear options worked and I had zero issues after the first 5mins of getting to know each other. I still hanker after one.

 

[TPO]

I haven't watched it because I don't want to provide income to someone I know mistreats animals. However, I didn't say anything about the information she provided, only that she didn't have formal training.

She, her lack of qualifications, as well as her horse keeping, have been discussed on here before.

Predominantly on a thread about the whackadoodle "the Travelling Horse witch" (lied about qualifications too, amongst other things) and she got a mention on the Helsgrad thread.

 

[KEK]

Exactly.
association + exact timing changes everything.

So by saying ‘good girl’ and feeding the carrot/ scratching you teach them to associate the ‘good girl’ with rewards
…and then when you are schooling, say ‘good girl’ scratch the neck/ withers with the inside hand.

This is how we use +ve reinforcement when schooling.

So the stick could become +ve reinforcement if you associate a stick touching the leg with a carrot.

So use of a whip is not necessarily -ve reinforcement - it can be +ve.
…
eventually, you only need to use the stick as the aid and say good girl.

(only ever hand feed when they are looking away from you…step back, otherwise you inadvertently teach pushy behaviour).

I’m super interested to hear this, have you counter conditioned the stick to become +ve reinforcement? I would have thought that needed a heap of reps as it started as an aversive?

 

[Cortez]

I know this is absolutely nothing to do with this thread but I'm curious....in what way are mules different to train? Are they tricky? I've never come across one.

They have opinions, which won’t necessarily chime with yours, and have to be considered and discussed if you wish to get anything done. They are deep thinkers, and strong believers in cost-benefit analyses. What works with a horse won’t necessarily work with a mule, so you have to have an array of methods to offer. But once they’ve “got” something, they’ll do it forever and with great dedication (this includes opening the kitchen window and asking for carrots). It takes longer to train a mule, but you won’t need to go back and do it again. If they don’t like someone nothing will change their mind. I was very fond of our mules, but then I do have a sense of humour. They can sense indecision a mile off, likewise fear.

 

[blitznbobs]

I’m super interested to hear this, have you counter conditioned the stick to become +ve reinforcement? I would have thought that needed a heap of reps as it started as an aversive?

This suggests a misconception of how a whip should be used to me … I can use a whip to give reward (scratching and rubbing which they really lean into for more) or negative reinforcement- I only do this in situations of danger. But mostly it is a signalling tool neither positive or negative… it’s like a hand - it can give a slap/ punch or a scratch and a stroke … it’s not the tool but what you do with it that matters .. in general over the last 40 years I am much more likely to chastise with a rope than a whip … as when they do something dangerous I often have a lead rope in my hand and not a whip.

 

[suestowford]

I know this is absolutely nothing to do with this thread but I'm curious....in what way are mules different to train? Are they tricky? I've never come across one.

I was talking to one of the staff at the Donkey Sanctuary one day and we got on the subject of mules. He said that in his experience a mule would be smarter than a donkey, and both would be smarter than a horse. He didn't mention ponies in that list!
So according to him they are the most clever of all the equines. That would make them tricky I would think, because they could probably outthink a lot of people.

 

[WrongLeg]

They have opinions, which won’t necessarily chime with yours, and have to be considered and discussed if you wish to get anything done. They are deep thinkers, and strong believers in cost-benefit analyses. What works with a horse won’t necessarily work with a mule, so you have to have an array of methods to offer. But once they’ve “got” something, they’ll do it forever and with great dedication (this includes opening the kitchen window and asking for carrots). It takes longer to train a mule, but you won’t need to go back and do it again. If they don’t like someone nothing will change their mind. I was very fond of our mules, but then I do have a sense of humour. They can sense indecision a mile off, likewise fear.

This suggests a misconception of how a whip should be used to me … I can use a whip to give reward (scratching and rubbing which they really lean into for more) or negative reinforcement- I only do this in situations of danger. But mostly it is a signalling tool neither positive or negative… it’s like a hand - it can give a slap/ punch or a scratch and a stroke … it’s not the tool but what you do with it that matters .. in general over the last 40 years I am much more likely to chastise with a rope than a whip … as when they do something dangerous I often have a lead rope in my hand and not a whip.

I am the same at keeping the stick neutral…but I have taught a horse to lift her leg towards the stick using +ve reinforcement. It was more effective.

My own mare actually doesn’t give a monkeys if you hit her with the stick partly because we have The Giant Horse Fly (size of a teaspoon) - and if it lands on one of the horses you have to hit the fly pretty darn hard with a stick.

 

[Janique]

Regarding mule training, they are very smart that's for sure !

A long time ago, my friend Patricia and I aged 20 years old and both having experience with horses tried to break to harness her mule Halloween.

She bought Halloween at 6 months old and we started with her a 3 years old, she wasn't very big, around 14.2 ( 1.40m ) but already very strong.

We took her in the field next to the stables and tried to lunge her, in order to get her used to long reins.

She went round twice and stopped to look at us with a question mark on her face ? What the F.... ?

What the hell should i go round and round for, she seemed to ask !

She couldn't understand why that she had to go round and round on the same circle !

We then decided to put the long rein on her and she got it straight away, she seemed to think, '' no need for this non sens of going round in circle, let's go forwards. ''

We had a great time with her, at first putting a very small cart and walking alongside it, she loved working and was always going much faster up hill.

She just loved going out with the cart and had a great time, to more the better,

She lived up to 25 years old and was very sadly run over by the train, but that's another story.

 

[paddy555]

She, her lack of qualifications, as well as her horse keeping, have been discussed on here before.

Predominantly on a thread about the whackadoodle "the Travelling Horse witch" (lied about qualifications too, amongst other things) and she got a mention on the Helsgrad thread.

I have looked at the earlier threads. I have no idea what "whackadoodle, the travelling horse witch is all about but I cannot see it refers to BN so no idea of the relevance.

I realise BN is not qualified. Many people aren't in very many areas. Many horse people aren't. So I'm not sure what that has to do with it. She does interesting work and puts forward ideas. No one has to like them.

Earlier I merely asked for an explanation as to which part of the video was incorrect technically. Which parts do you think are incorrect? I think if one is going to bad mouth someone's work as being rubbish it is not unreasonable to detail the precise errors they have made.

I have done a bit of research on her and I was surprised at how many compliment her on her work. That is not the odd amateur owner on here but several riders and trainers whose work I admire. I would be surprised to find that so many, such experienced people have been hood winked.





All I can find on the Helsgrad thread is a new poster who came on with no introduction whatsoever, bad mouthed her and has never been seen since.

 

[nutjob]

I have done a bit of research on her and I was surprised at how many compliment her on her work. That is not the odd amateur owner on here but several riders and trainers whose work I admire. I would be surprised to find that so many, such experienced people have been hood winked.

These people may not be scientists and may not be able to critically assess whether what she is saying is correct or not. It's up to individuals to believe what they want and to get information from what ever sources they think are reputable. Personally, if I wanted to know about horse anatomy I would be deriving information from someone with a science background and academic qualifications in a relevant subject, ideally with published peer reviewed scientific papers in that subject. Conversely, if I wanted a pet stuffed I would go to a taxidermist.

If I didn't trust the source of the information I wouldn't want to have to keep cross checking against more reputable sources to check which parts were correct or not. I would think anyone with sufficient knowledge to critically appraise this stuff wouldn't bother or would be blocked and deleted as per normal on social media.

 

[Aleka81]

Electric collars were banned earlier this year, so you were right about those.

No they arent! The legislation was never enacted!

 

[TPO]

I have looked at the earlier threads. I have no idea what "whackadoodle, the travelling horse witch is all about but I cannot see it refers to BN so no idea of the relevance.

I realise BN is not qualified. Many people aren't in very many areas. Many horse people aren't. So I'm not sure what that has to do with it. She does interesting work and puts forward ideas. No one has to like them.

Earlier I merely asked for an explanation as to which part of the video was incorrect technically. Which parts do you think are incorrect? I think if one is going to bad mouth someone's work as being rubbish it is not unreasonable to detail the precise errors they have made.

I have done a bit of research on her and I was surprised at how many compliment her on her work. That is not the odd amateur owner on here but several riders and trainers whose work I admire. I would be surprised to find that so many, such experienced people have been hood winked.





All I can find on the Helsgrad thread is a new poster who came on with no introduction whatsoever, bad mouthed her and has never been seen since.

Unsure of what you can't comprehend. I clearly wrote that BN has been posted about before "predominantly on the thread about the other whackadoodle The Travelling Horse Witch ". Not sure how to simplify that BN is discussed on the Travelling Horse witch. Both unqualified. TTHW is a whackadoodle who has lied about her qualifications amongst other things.

That's good, I'm glad you have so much trust in untrained and unqualified people who curate their own social media and delete any questions that don't fit their narrative. Never mind very questionable treatment of horses, their own and others. As long as other people like them they must be great and absolutely what they claim to be Nutjob more than covered the obvious.

I didn't make any comment on the video so you're barking up the wrong tree again.

 

[KEK]

This suggests a misconception of how a whip should be used to me … I can use a whip to give reward (scratching and rubbing which they really lean into for more) or negative reinforcement- I only do this in situations of danger. But mostly it is a signalling tool neither positive or negative… it’s like a hand - it can give a slap/ punch or a scratch and a stroke … it’s not the tool but what you do with it that matters .. in general over the last 40 years I am much more likely to chastise with a rope than a whip … as when they do something dangerous I often have a lead rope in my hand and not a whip.

Interesting. My pony definitely finds it at least mildly aversive and he's never been "beaten" with it, at most he's been poked (and I've been at every training session he's had). I definitely couldn't pat him with it. That's why he moves away when it's used.
I have only n=1 experience with horses though.

 

[Caol Ila]

My horses couldn't care less about the whip. If I use it with the intention of backing up an ignored leg aid, they respond, but if I use with the intention of stroking them, scratching an itchy spot, whacking a fly, waving it aggressively at an annoying dog, etc., they don't respond to it at all.