CDJ withdrawn from paris

[Miss_Millie]

Ben Atkinson posted this yesterday. Been mulling it over ever since. While I agree with the gist of it, and anyone who feels the need to send people death threats needs help quite frankly. But the rest of it feels a bit 'please turn a blind eye and don't make a fuss in case you upset the bad horse trainer'. I can't get on board with that. That's how we've ended up where we are. Maybe I've read it wrong...

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/rCyBpM4KiN9SA7et/

I agree with much of the principle of what he is saying - some people on social media are truly vile, and they know that there will be no consequence to their words so they feel at liberty to say awful things about complete strangers, things that they probably wouldn't have the gall to say face-to-face to someone they actually know. It is ironic if the people being awful are promoting 'ethical' training or management, whilst being horrible to another human behind a screen.

That being said, it doesn't mean that much-needed conversation should be shut down about horse welfare in training, the sport and management practices. It doesn't mean that abuse shouldn't be called out. It doesn't mean that people should be quiet about obvious misinformation which could harm the horse. It doesn't mean that we should encourage toxic positivity about things which are categorically bad.

 

[southerncomfort]

I believe he was referring to DHO

Ah right...thanks for clearing that up. Maybe he should have made clear that he was referring to a particular individual.

 

[HJJ]

Two minute piece on at 7.28 am on this morning’s Radio 4 Today program re the FEI responding to welfare events in dressage, including the CDJ episode. Laura Scott was voicing it.

Sorry only half heard it as was putting the washing on, but it included whether dressage/horse sports at the Olympics are in peril.

I caught a bit of it too, just that equestrian inclusion in the Olympics is under scrutiny due to public perception in recent years, and that no sport has a guaranteed place in the Olympics.

 

[Roxylola]

I keep coming back to this.
All the people saying oh Id have been outraged, I'd have done xyz of they did that to my horse - they being cdj, mt after the beach incident, and the many (many) others.
I do think in general trainers are able to read the room and would never go that far in most cases, and probably dismiss those clients as "pony patters"
Like any abuse, it builds, it's insidious and creeps up on you and before you know it you're in deep.

And, when you do finally object that perhaps this is a bit much, you'll hear something along the lines of but you want to win don't you?
I don't want an end to horse sport, for one thing I think it can inspire people to be and do better. I also think that if there were no competitions there then is no regulation at all and actually that could make things far worse.

But it brings me back to the fact the people who are Olympic champs in any field etc are ruthless, competitive, dedicated, single minded etc and I don't think we have any right to force an animal to be part of that.

I wish we could have an overhaul completely - turn equestrian competition in to an art not a sport with top marks for harmony, relaxed partnerships etc

 

[Miss_Millie]

I believe he was referring to DHO

One comment and his response alludes to the positive reinforcement training community. Realistically there are aggressive fanatics under any umbrella of training/management, although DHO would also fit the bill.

 

[sidewaysonacob]

Ben Atkinson posted this yesterday. Been mulling it over ever since. While I agree with the gist of it, and anyone who feels the need to send people death threats needs help quite frankly. But the rest of it feels a bit 'please turn a blind eye and don't make a fuss in case you upset the bad horse trainer'. I can't get on board with that. That's how we've ended up where we are. Maybe I've read it wrong...

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/rCyBpM4KiN9SA7et/

I've seen Ben Atkinson at a big show warm up his supposedly 'hop on it in the field with no bridle because they have such a special bond' horse. Double bridle, dressage whip and spurs, which he gradually took away as the horse became more submissive.

 

[eahotson]

I've seen Ben Atkinson at a big show warm up his supposedly 'hop on it in the field with no bridle because they have such a special bond' horse. Double bridle, dressage whip and spurs, which he gradually took away as the horse became more submissive.

You can't trust any of them really.

 

[tristars]

Frederick pignon says, when I am with horses I have no ambition, only dreams

 

[Ceifer]

Frederick pignon says, when I am with horses I have no ambition, only dreams

He may say that but he earns a lot of money from his shows and a blurred line between ‘liberty’ and circus trick training.

 

[Miss_Millie]

'Liberty' is a fallacy really - it is only truly liberty if the horse knows that they can walk away without any punishment or consequence for not participating in the training. Otherwise the ropes are still there, they're just invisible. I have seen some very shut down 'liberty' trained horses.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I've seen Ben Atkinson at a big show warm up his supposedly 'hop on it in the field with no bridle because they have such a special bond' horse. Double bridle, dressage whip and spurs, which he gradually took away as the horse became more submissive.

Ditto with the bridleless riders - smoke n mirrors- they use very strong cues and get progressively lighter because horse is very sensitive to making an error

 

[ester]

does ben claim it's due to 'special bond' rather than training? Or is that other people?

 

[tristars]

He may say that but he earns a lot of money from his shows and a blurred line between ‘liberty’ and what

Perhaps what he says is true, what evidence do you have it is not true, I find to leave your ambitions outside the arena is the best thing I ever learned

I have a horse who loves to work at liberty the horse and myself are very close

 

[Ceifer]

Perhaps what he says is true, what evidence do you have it is not true, I find to leave your ambitions outside the arena is the best thing I ever learned

I have a horse who loves to work at liberty the horse and myself are very close

The evidence is a man making a lot of money training horses to do glorified circus tricks. If he had no ambition why would he train them to do all the random acts of getting on mounting blocks, lying down, bowing etc and then putting on a massive show. Watching them they don’t look the happiest of horses.
Ego and showmanship run close to ambition.

 

[ester]

If you're training for film/tv some of your horses are going to have to do weird things, I don't think he's actually been doing the displays that long, that's always seemed secondary to the core work to me?

 

[tristars]

The evidence is a man making a lot of money training horses to do glorified circus tricks. If he had no ambition why would he train them to do all the random acts of getting on mounting blocks, lying down, bowing etc and then putting on a massive show. Watching them they don’t look the happiest of horses.
Ego and showmanship run close to ambition.

So he is guilty of making money......that is the evidence

Do you think he works with ridden horses as well

I think he means he let's go of external pressures. and accepted methodology , ego and is open to the horses when he works with them

 

[Pinkvboots]

I know even the last few weeks Arabi has been miserable because I haven't been riding him, his been very slightly off on his right front so I've left him but his not happy.

He sees me tacking up Louis and expects his next and he has looked a bit down, I still groom him and do his stretches but he misses it even a little walk.

I'm going to walk him out in hand tomorrow he will be wild but he will love it

 

[Pinkvboots]

I had his feet x rayed last week his got slight imbalance on that right front but my farrier is on holiday so easily sorted.

 

[sidewaysonacob]

does ben claim it's due to 'special bond' rather than training? Or is that other people?

That was what the commentator said during their show.

 

[sbloom]

'Liberty' is a fallacy really - it is only truly liberty if the horse knows that they can walk away without any punishment or consequence for not participating in the training. Otherwise the ropes are still there, they're just invisible. I have seen some very shut down 'liberty' trained horses.

Intrinzen, though I think it's been renamed, is liberty/playful work that fully engages with the concept of consent.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I don't call rope free work 'liberty' because that sounds too formal - as I assume it's a vaguely recognised discipline with 'moves' or whatever. But I do like working with horses with no lines on them - partly because I find it interesting to see what level of communication is possible with energy/body language/voice only. And partly to see if they choose to stay. For me the whole point is that it is untrained. It is just communcation. So I do it very rarely but find it fun and rewarding when I do.

 

[shortstuff99]

DRF Appeals Committee Gives Additional Suspension to Andreas Helgstrand

The DRF Appeal Committee has given Andreas Helgstrand an additional suspension for his involvement in the Carina Cassoe Kruth whipping video.

eurodressage.com

 

[Miss_Millie]

DRF Appeals Committee Gives Additional Suspension to Andreas Helgstrand

The DRF Appeal Committee has given Andreas Helgstrand an additional suspension for his involvement in the Carina Cassoe Kruth whipping video.

eurodressage.com

It's a good step forward, but that monster needs a lifetime ban from owning horses!

 

[shortstuff99]

It's a good step forward, but that monster needs a lifetime ban from owning horses!

The bit that got me was when he says he is not responsible for what she chose to do after his words. Surely if you cared so much for horse welfare (as he profeses) wouldn't you tell her that action was not on and to pack it in?

 

[reynold]

FEI sets out next steps as dressage seeks to restore public’s trust - Horse & Hound

Mandatory trainer registration, defining ethical methods and better communication were some of the actions agreed on at the FEI dressage stakeholder meeting on 1 October. A “diverse” group, including representatives of the international riders’ officials’ and trainers’ clubs, and members of the...

www.horseandhound.co.uk

Write up on the FEI dressage meeting. I think this is the meeting that CHester was going to attend.

Note that no press were allowed to attend - which would of course exclude the mainstream media as well as equestrian media.

 

[Equi]

FEI sets out next steps as dressage seeks to restore public’s trust - Horse & Hound

Mandatory trainer registration, defining ethical methods and better communication were some of the actions agreed on at the FEI dressage stakeholder meeting on 1 October. A “diverse” group, including representatives of the international riders’ officials’ and trainers’ clubs, and members of the...

www.horseandhound.co.uk

Write up on the FEI dressage meeting. I think this is the meeting that CHester was going to attend.

Note that no press were allowed to attend - which would of course exclude the mainstream media as well as equestrian media.

It all sounds good on paper, but it will be interesting to see how it is actually implemented and how the judges respond.

 

[splashgirl45]

The principals of dressage has stayed the same so although it’s good to re affirm them the judging needs to reflect the aims of dressage and so far we have only seen a small improvement. If the judges continue to reward excessive tension and overbent, stressed horses ,nothing will change . Becky and Lewis have been marked more fairly recently so hopefully this will make the riders who don’t ride similarly to change … we will see

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Since CDJ (and I think before) my experience of scribing has shown me judges very clearly commenting on tension, dropping polls, and BTV. Only one would I say it was really obvious in the marking as well as the comment (but perhaps I would just be a harsh judge if I were a judge! I feel it needs to be made very clear in the marks as mainly that's what makes the difference in competition) but you could mainly see a reduction on 0.5 or 1.0 mark.

That said I had a fairly recent experience of a listed judge, BHS approved/accredited etc. giving out the highest marks to the most overbent horses with lots of 'oh look how good this horse is' type comments (implication of being well above the rest). It wasn't just a bit of dropping BTV here and there, it was consistently throughout the tests. Not held there with hard contact, but still incorrect even if they did have more 'quality' about them.

 

[WrongLeg]

It all sounds good on paper, but it will be interesting to see how it is actually implemented and how the judges respond.

I found the aims a bit weird (more like training scales) - I was always taught that ‘the point‘ of dressage was health & safety: a horse that’s ridden correctly is more likely to stay sound and the rider stay safe.

The ‘tricks’ are just demonstrating that you have trained correctly (square halt = straight horse): that’s why the way of going achieves marks not the movement.

I think this is something that ‘justifies’ the sport to the public and they can relate to.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

When is the outcome of the CDJ investigation likely to be published? Are we talking weeks, months or even years?