CDJ withdrawn from paris

Teaselmeg said:
That video is horrific, what is he doing with his front legs ?? It does really look like something aversive has happened to increase the elevation 😢 🥲🥲
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That poor horse looks totally unsure and desperately trying to do what it thinks is being asked for. I hope she was embarassed to ride that test, because she should have been.
 
blitznbobs said:
Possibly, but I’ve definitely stuck it out when things go wrong… rightly or wrongly it’s difficult when you are in the arena…
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I think it’s a bad idea to retire completely, even if you end up giving up on the test & just asking the horse to relax/ stretch into the contact/ or even walk on a long rein.
It’s best to try and end with something the horse & rider can do well, and never teach horse or rider to head for the exit when it goes tits up.
 
To be fair, although the periods of time shown in the video are absolutely not great, and although the horse is clearly not connected and is confused and seems to be showing expressions of historical/expected stress, I don't feel he/she was being ridden harshly or unkindly, and he/she didn't seem to show any fear or anxiety about the rider who was on board. It looked to me like the horse isn't established enough for that level for sure, but has been trained to do the movements by being held together and tense, but with a rider who is riding more sympathetically the genuine difficulties the horse has are able to show.

The photos and videos AP shares of her own horses at home seem to be harmonious and without overt stress and tension, and in keeping with what the horse is able to do for their current level of training.

I would query whether the horse in the video was able and willing to engage his/her abdominal muscles properly this day - perhaps some gut pain, perhaps pain in the ribcage, perhaps somewhere else. It would be good to know the horse's name to look at older footage, and also to know whether he/she is ok now.
 
WrongLeg said:
I think it’s a bad idea to retire completely, even if you end up giving up on the test & just asking the horse to relax/ stretch into the contact/ or even walk on a long rein.
It’s best to try and end with something the horse & rider can do well, and never teach horse or rider to head for the exit when it goes tits up.
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I disagree, if the horse was spooky and unsettled then maybe but the horse is trying very hard to do what is asked. By retiring all you're teaching the horse is that you are listening when they are clearly struggling physically.
 
blitznbobs said:
Or it was just a really crap test where everything went wrong … cos people never have one of those
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I would say absolutely not. I would say this horse has been ridden/trained in massive compression, probably with gadgets and strong leg aids/spurs/whips to stop him dropping off the "aids" which has already destroyed any healthy movement in him.

We need to always keep in mind the context of modern sport horse breeding and the issues were seeing post mortem as well as things like DSLD; these horses need training that improves their stability, their ability to balance THEMSELVES, and compression does the opposite.

This made me feel ill, I cannot for the life of me understand why she didn't retire, that would be showing love for the horse, or why she wasn't eliminated, how can a judge say this horse is sound? If this isn't lame then we need to change how we assess soundness.
 
Did I read it wrong or did he go from only having competed once prior to 2021 to GP in 3 years? Wild!
'Gives a good feeling' ay🤔 I'm not sure whatever that feels like is okay 🤷
 
Cloball said:
Did I read it wrong or did he go from only having competed once prior to 2021 to GP in 3 years? Wild!
'Gives a good feeling' ay🤔 I'm not sure whatever that feels like is okay 🤷
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You did read it wrong - later the article says 'In the summer of 2021 he moved to the German branch of the dealer's yard in Syke, where the ride was allocated to Leonie Richter. She competed him in some developing PSG horse classes in 2022 and produced him up to Intermediaire II level. In May 2023 they won the S*** level class in Haftenkamp with 71.526%.'

Very very weird test by AP. I also note she's been very quiet on her Instagram in recent months - I wonder if she's keeping her head down in light of the Helgstrand and CDJ scandals? She puts the odd thing in stories but not about her own riding.
 
TBF to her, I have just watched the whole test and there was some much nicer work in there- the 2 tempis were nice and looked very established, she kept the pirouettes large but they were also nice. The horse is a freaky mover and I hate false piaffe/ passages like that because they are very telling to the training the horse has received…. That isn’t collection, it's a taught party trick. The judges were giving the passage 7s and the piaffe 6.5s when it didn’t have the big mistakes in it- that’s what’s wrong with judging!
 
TheMule said:
TBF to her, I have just watched the whole test and there was some much nicer work in there- the 2 tempis were nice and looked very established, she kept the pirouettes large but they were also nice. The horse is a freaky mover and I hate false piaffe/ passages like that because they are very telling to the training the horse has received…. That isn’t collection, it's a taught party trick. The judges were giving the passage 7s and the piaffe 6.5s when it didn’t have the big mistakes in it- that’s what’s wrong with judging!
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Is the test available to view online anywhere please?
 
Tbh the video has been edited. I suspect most of the half decent work has been cropped out.

No the horse doesnt look right, something was clearly wrong but certainly in the video i watched bits of the test were missing.
 
As someone (can't remember who, sorry, and laptop keeps freezing so can't easily scroll back to check) already wrote, the horse in question has been bred to be hyper-mobile. Having worked a little with gaited horses, they can have some quite unusual-looking strides at times, but still not actually have anything 'wrong' as such. It can be quite alarming to see them move in unexpected ways when you're not used to it - perhaps that's why this horse looks less alarming to some who've experienced moments of 'impure' gaits in other horses?

(I am not saying I think the video looks good by any stretch of the imagination, just trying to rationalise it I suppose.)
 
I think one of the biggest problems is both the rider and horse are "green" at this level so you may find a more experienced rider on the horse would be holding it together better. Even at much, much lower levels you see horses who you know can work correctly and calmly at home but who struggle in a large competitive environment.

There are bits of the test that aren't awful but obviously they aren't the ones that get the clicks & comments.

Personally I was surprised to see AP ride this horse at this level given it was only earlier this year she was on Insta saying they were taking it slowly. I'm not sure where the pressure has come from given she has other experienced GP horses.
 
PurpleSpots said:
As someone (can't remember who, sorry, and laptop keeps freezing so can't easily scroll back to check) already wrote, the horse in question has been bred to be hyper-mobile. Having worked a little with gaited horses, they can have some quite unusual-looking strides at times, but still not actually have anything 'wrong' as such. It can be quite alarming to see them move in unexpected ways when you're not used to it - perhaps that's why this horse looks less alarming to some who've experienced moments of 'impure' gaits in other horses?

(I am not saying I think the video looks good by any stretch of the imagination, just trying to rationalise it I suppose.)
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It doesn't matter, it's harmful training.

If a horse is hypermobile, train it for stability, no horse should be trained in compression let alone to this extent to give this result, even if it was a "bad day" or collection of "bad moments".

Sadly not many trainers train for stability and judges certainly don't reward it. Equitopiacenter.com is a good place to start, stability isn't their sole focus but they're very good on the basics of why compression is bad, posture and topline.
 
sbloom said:
It doesn't matter, it's harmful training.

If a horse is hypermobile, train it for stability, no horse should be trained in compression let alone to this extent to give this result, even if it was a "bad day" or collection of "bad moments".

Sadly not many trainers train for stability and judges certainly don't reward it. Equitopiacenter.com is a good place to start, stability isn't their sole focus but they're very good on the basics of why compression is bad, posture and topline.
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Do we know for certain that the horse has been trained in compression though? It's how it looked to me initially, but I'm not so sure now.

Surely there are other things which could have led to these moments?
 
PurpleSpots said:
Do we know for certain that the horse has been trained in compression though? It's how it looked to me initially, but I'm not so sure now.

Surely there are other things which could have led to these moments?
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Find me a competitive dressage horse at top level that isn't, it's just some are more extreme than others. It's all damaging, just to different degrees.

Compression is simply driving the hind end into the hand which covers most training we see, it's the most common expression of "back to front" riding, not only seen with draw reins, bungies, neck stretchers. Putting balance first is very different. We need the front end to push up, at least into horizontal balance, even that isn't seen that often. At the moment so many horses are held up in front by the rider, and are using their own musculature incorrectly to try not to fall forwards (a better expression IMO than "on the forehand, look at all the GP horses falling over their own front legs...breakover issues....)

Generating more forward thrust form the hind leg than can be converted into upward thrust by the front legs causes issues but it's seen everywhere. There's a vicious circle of horses not being up in front, having the hind end being driven underneath, the rider struggling and leaning back, braced between cantle and knee blocks, because of how the horse is moving, but they way they sit making it worse.

Huge topic and spent far too much time on here than I should today, have a look at my FB page where I share tons on this, or go to Manolo Mendez, equitopiacenter.com, and the lesser known Annie Dillon Horsemanship and Mills Consilient Horsemanship, both getting RIGHT into the weeds of correct balance and its transformative power.

Back to work now!
 
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