Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
A horse I recently saw winning dressage was not two time in a lot of its trot. I suppose the broken diagonals made it more comfortable to sit the trot though.
CDJ withdrawn from paris
- Thread starter Zoeypxo
- Start date
WrongLeg
Well-Known Member
6 months - so January next year?
This is fair enough given that anybody accused of anything should be offered the opportunity to prepare a defence.
CarlungM
Well-Known Member
I owned a horse bred from cutting lines for years. He had never been trained,but the day we saw cows on the common he went straight into action stations . What a natural!
WrongLeg
Well-Known Member
My show ponies would move a herd Highland Cows no problem…but put my mare in the Grand Parade at a County Show with a cow wearing a rosette and the cattle are considered terrifying monsters.I owned a horse bred from cutting lines for years. He had never been trained,but the day we saw cows on the common he went straight into action stations . What a natural!
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
Knowing what many here think of DHO I wouldn't share this but I can't find this video elsewhere in the public domain.
What I'd like to know is WTH is going on here?? It looks a bit like the message has got through about the horses being BTV but the way this horse at least has been trained means he can't actually be ridden IFOTV without complete collapse. He looks entirely on his forehand, appears to be just leaning on the contact in a search for stability and has no ability to carry himself. The position of the head/neck in relation to the rest of its body looks completely inappropriate for a horse attempting GP moves. Have the muscles that usually hold him together been disengaged by the longer outline, so now nothing is holding him together? I've never actually seen anything like this before. I'm sure others have more expert analysis but this looks really dire.
What I'd like to know is WTH is going on here?? It looks a bit like the message has got through about the horses being BTV but the way this horse at least has been trained means he can't actually be ridden IFOTV without complete collapse. He looks entirely on his forehand, appears to be just leaning on the contact in a search for stability and has no ability to carry himself. The position of the head/neck in relation to the rest of its body looks completely inappropriate for a horse attempting GP moves. Have the muscles that usually hold him together been disengaged by the longer outline, so now nothing is holding him together? I've never actually seen anything like this before. I'm sure others have more expert analysis but this looks really dire.
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
The horse is only 9, not sure why 9 year olds are doing grand Prix (even if it is U25 GP). TBF her score wasn't very good so at least that's something.
ETA if it had scored well then there would be no impetus to improve, as it hasn't then I hope she will go back to the drawing board and train some more.
ETA if it had scored well then there would be no impetus to improve, as it hasn't then I hope she will go back to the drawing board and train some more.
suestowford
Well-Known Member
That test looked awful, to me anyway.
Now I know I am not a dressage queen, but even I can see there's no rhythm there at all.
I can't make a decent Yorkshire Pudding either, but I know one when I eat one!
Now I know I am not a dressage queen, but even I can see there's no rhythm there at all.
I can't make a decent Yorkshire Pudding either, but I know one when I eat one!
nutjob
Well-Known Member
I think he's on the forehand because there's something wrong with the hind legs or just too weak behind for the movements.
ETA back legs struggling with tempi changes also not a good look at all
ETA back legs struggling with tempi changes also not a good look at all
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JenJ
Well-Known Member
Agree it looks awful, but isn't this a good thing in many ways (which may be what you're saying and I'm just being dense in not realising it):
- Annabella Pidgeley is NOT riding the horse in the 'bad' way; she is perhaps trying to move welfare within the sport forward.
- AP is demonstrating (blatantly!) the falseness of the BTV/Rollkur training method - take away the fixed, held-in position at the front and the whole movement falls apart
- AP is, on the public stage, openly showing this, so going against the accepted norms, presumably at the cost of her success in this particular competition and her overall status in the eyes of those in dressage world that hold with BTV/Rollkur
(I'm not familiar with the nuances of the dressage world, so please forgive my naivety and do please correct me on anything I've incorrectly suggested)
Ceifer
Well-Known Member
I agree with these points re AP’s riding.
She needs to run from Helgastrand if that’s where she’s based now.
Why the hell you’d train there is beyond me and worrying that their training programme is being passed on.
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
I think I'm just asking what's gone so wrong for a horse to move like this at the near-pinnacle of its training (alleged). I couldn't guess at her motivations for presenting him in this way, though. If she felt he needed retraining why wouldn't she take him home and do that?
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
While I agree wholeheartedly about the age qualification many other 9yos have got round a GP without looking positively ataxic. This poor creature looks like he doesn't actually know what his legs are doing, and maybe he doesn't. The drawing board (or a vet) is definitely required but more of whatever they've been doing up till now would not seem indicated!
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
She dates his son
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
The thing with AP (and CDJ and others) is they probably do, truly, love their horses. They are just conditioned into thinking this is the correct way to train, we need to show how you can be successful with different training methods
Ceifer
Well-Known Member
.
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
This may sound overly judgemental, but are they really so dumb and intellectually incurious that they think the things (that we've all seen now, and I'm sure things we haven't yet seen) that are done to get results are either 'correct' or 'loving'? If this (generically) is what is rewarded, there are *no* other ways to succeed, because ethical training does not produce leg movers. So they can't be shown this is wrong until there's a fundamental shift in the way marks are given and they are unsuccessful. That's how they learn. Rather like how the horses 'learn' at the moment, these riders must be driven to it.
ramsaybailey
Well-Known Member
Agreed!
And I can't see how they can both love their horses and use the 'training methods
' we've seenLove the success and achievement the horses bring them is probably more likely...
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
Yeah I think any love they feel is probably quite conditional. Anyway, riders loving their horses has no relevance to the horses' experiences of this type of training. We shouldn't be debating how they feel about the horses because a pat and a polo and a cute insta picture will not unbreak a mentally or physically broken horse.
Ceifer
Well-Known Member
I have worked with top riders and believe me they do believe that they love the horses.Agreed!
And I can't see how they can both love their horses and use the 'training methods
Love the success and achievement the horses bring them is probably more likely...
It’s easy to convince yourself of something to justify the result.
One woman had a string of beautiful and incredibly expensive horses.
They had ‘top’ everything. The most expensive rugs, tack, boots, therapy items (zamar machine, massage rugs).
I’m talking 100s of thousands of pounds worth of stuff.
They all had 3 bales of shavings a week. Housed in million pound stables. They were spotlessly clean at all times.
They had the top vets, physio etc.
And….
They never had any turnout. Too risky for injuries, they didn’t hack either.
Owner used to say how lucky her horses were to live in such beautiful stables, with their every whim catered for. In her eyes it was the pinnacle of horsemanship.
She said it so often it was like she was trying to drum it into her own psyche.
She loved her horses and she wanted to win competitions. So this was how she chose to do it.
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
But it shouldn't be part of the debate. How they feel (or think they feel) is irrelevant to the horses' experiences. Are we going to give people a pass for abusive training techniques on that basis? I hope not.
Ceifer
Well-Known Member
Oh I totally agree and I think my post backs that up.
I hated every second of working there and unfortunately I needed the cash at the time otherwise I’d have left sooner.
She was vile and I hated it
teapot
Well-Known Member
And that's one yard of many I'm sure - where the money should be spent on a turnout arena of sorts (if space allows).
blitznbobs
Well-Known Member
Or it was just a really crap test where everything went wrong … cos people never have one of those
JenJ
Well-Known Member
It was beyond 'where everything went wrong', it wasn't a pilot error or miscommunication or spooky blip, it was, throughout, an unbalanced, uncoordinated unhappy-looking mess.
SaddlePsych'D
Well-Known Member
It wouldn't surprise me if it's had it's legs whacked about with the action of the front legs.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I don't see it as a test that went wrong, the reaction of the horse is plain weird, I'm kind of surprised she didn't retire given how it must have felt.
GreyDot
Well-Known Member
Exacty that. The horse did not look well. She definitely felt it. Her arms were as stiff as a board.
Teaselmeg
Well-Known Member
That video is horrific, what is he doing with his front legs ?? It does really look like something aversive has happened to increase the elevation 
JenJ
Well-Known Member
Does anyone know when it was filmed, and if there has been any public comment about the horse since, in particular regarding their wellbeing?
ester
Not slacking multitasking
The event is on now.