Debate for the rights and wrongs of racing

[Gallop_Away]

I haven't referred to any questions.
.

I was referring to the last line in your post:

.....without answering the questions about racing is deflection.

I believe myself and others have answered the question in the initial post, given our views on racing and where it can be improved, whilst also bringing further perspective into the discussion.

I was wondering if I had also missed something else?

 

[Burnerbee]

So there’s no racing in the Middle East ?

Good point. I googled it and turns out it’s legal at some courses / in some ME countries and there’s tons of illegal gambling going on, mostly by phone / online. And you can put money on in ways that aren’t considered gambling. So yeah, it’s all about the spondoolies there too.

 

[milliepops]

This going to be unpopular but deaths per se are not a measure of animal welfare or animal cruelty. So a sport that has a higher risk does not make it more cruel.

no, but it is a binary thing that is easy to quantify. it's hard to quantify suffering in other ways. but very easy to classify a horse as dead or not. It's a starting point.

 

[Birker2020]

Racing doesn't seem to be providing those statistics in any easy to find place any more. The youngest figures I can find are 5 years old, and they are mixing up all on course racing deaths so you can't split out NH racing to find out whether the figure of 1 in 250 stats dies on course, that was published about 10 years ago by the BHA, stands or if that has improved and by how much.

Animal Aid provide in depth analysis on racing deaths. https://www.horsedeathwatch.com/

You can filter the courses, the jockeys, the course, the going, which make very interesting reading. Lingfield for instance had the highest number of deaths in 2021, but obviously you can't say that makes Lingfield a more dangerous course, there are so many variables, like jockeys, horses fitness levels, type of race, weight the horse carries, how many race meetings it holds, etc, etc, etc.


The 2019 figures make for grim reading:

• 186 horses died as a result of racing
• 145 were killed in National Hunt (jump) racing
• 41 were killed in Flat racing (on All-Weather and Turf surfaces)
• 52 British racecourses had at least one death

There's nothing after 2019.

 

[ycbm]

I was wondering if I had also missed something else?

You personally, not that I'm aware of.
.

 

[ycbm]

Animal Aid provide in depth analysis on racing deaths. https://www.horsedeathwatch.com/

You can filter the courses, the jockeys, the trainers, the course, the dates and the ground conditions which make very interesting reading. Lingfield for instance had the highest number of deaths in 2021, but obviously you can't say that makes Lingfield a more dangerous course, there are so many variables, like jockeys, horses fitness levels, type of race, weight the horse carries, etc, etc, etc.

I've pointed to that thread twice already B, it's the official BHA statistics that are missing or very difficult to find.

 

[Birker2020]

I've pointed to that thread twice already B, it's the official BHA statistics that are missing or very difficult to find.

Sorry just jumped in, not had time to read the whole thread this morning.

 

[Burnerbee]

This going to be unpopular but deaths per se are not a measure of animal welfare or animal cruelty. So a sport that has a higher risk does not make it more cruel.

For example beef cattle are destined to be killed but that does not make the rearing or killing cruel.

Dead horses are no longer suffering - it’s the many thousands that are alive and suffering that are the issue.

Also, whilst we ought not digress too far into non horse territory, whilst the actual death may not be considered cruel, the hours in the build up to that point are often horrendous (only a minute % of livestock animals die in ‘nice’ British abattoirs), many millions of beef animals live very miserable lives without access to shade or water.

And all of it, horse, cow, sheep, farmed rabbit, whatever, is for our benefit.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Gosh darnit! I've been doing it all wrong for the last 18 years! I've been caring about the horses and being paid minimum wage when I could have been having them and making wads of cash instead! Doh!

 

[ponynutz]

This going to be unpopular but deaths per se are not a measure of animal welfare or animal cruelty. So a sport that has a higher risk does not make it more cruel.

For example beef cattle are destined to be killed but that does not make the rearing or killing cruel.

Many of us now buy free range meat... i.e meat that has a high quality of life and is killed in an ethical way. Many race horses dont get to enjoy this privilege...

 

[bonny]

Many of us now buy free range meat... i.e meat that has a high quality of life and is killed in an ethical way. Many race horses dont get to enjoy this privilege...

Maybe this debate has run its course !

 

[MrsMyope]

As a racehorse owner (50%) I think it is good that we can have a debate about the right and wrongs of racing and this thread has at least cleared up some misconceptions about racing, for instance, qualifications for GN entry.
All the owners I know care deeply what happens to their horses both in training and afterwards. For our horse we started her education not with the trainer but with a dressage rider. He backed her and we were delighted with the way she went. I had a sit on her the day before she left for training and I was confident if she didn’t take to racing she would have a life as a riding horse.

She was five and a half before she ran in her first bumper (NH flat race), and fully six before she jumped a hurdle in training. She is now eight and has won her last two races for us. We (owners and trainer) worry about every race we put her in. We enter so many races but don’t declare because the ground isn’t right. Her well being is the priority of her owners, trainer and his staff especially her rider/groom who obviously loves her very much.

In the summer she has her shoes off and she lives out with the other mares, all in one big herd.

When she retires we would like to breed from her and I see no harm in this. She is a big tough mare, she has won in a field of fourteen when she was the only mare. Her temperament has not changed from becoming a racehorse, she is still the sweet girl she was when we had her with us. She still likes a polo mint!

 

[Birker2020]

The jockeys don't hit the horse as much as it appears from a side on view. Mostly they are waving the whip and don't make contact, if you look at the head on view.

With all the technology they have these days why can they not make the whips so that they can detect when a whip hits a horses flank and thus provide a live count. There are millions of applications like this that can 'count' so why not a whip? This way the data can be relayed immediately back to the stewards box or even better our TV screens!

 

[stangs]

As a racehorse owner (50%) I think it is good that we can have a debate about the right and wrongs of racing and this thread has at least cleared up some misconceptions about racing, for instance, qualifications for GN entry.
All the owners I know care deeply what happens to their horses both in training and afterwards. For our horse we started her education not with the trainer but with a dressage rider. He backed her and we were delighted with the way she went. I had a sit on her the day before she left for training and I was confident if she didn’t take to racing she would have a life as a riding horse.

She was five and a half before she ran in her first bumper (NH flat race), and fully six before she jumped a hurdle in training. She is now eight and has won her last two races for us. We (owners and trainer) worry about every race we put her in. We enter so many races but don’t declare because the ground isn’t right. Her well being is the priority of her owners, trainer and his staff especially her rider/groom who obviously loves her very much.

In the summer she has her shoes off and she lives out with the other mares, all in one big herd.

When she retires we would like to breed from her and I see no harm in this. She is a big tough mare, she has won in a field of fourteen when she was the only mare. Her temperament has not changed from becoming a racehorse, she is still the sweet girl she was when we had her with us. She still likes a polo mint!

Would I be right in thinking that you keep her with a small trainer? Just thinking that this style of lifestyle is probably much less common with horses owned by the seriously rich, being trained by the bigger trainers.

She's clearly very lucky to have you.

 

[Birker2020]

As a racehorse owner (50%) I think it is good that we can have a debate about the right and wrongs of racing and this thread has at least cleared up some misconceptions about racing, for instance, qualifications for GN entry.
All the owners I know care deeply what happens to their horses both in training and afterwards. For our horse we started her education not with the trainer but with a dressage rider. He backed her and we were delighted with the way she went. I had a sit on her the day before she left for training and I was confident if she didn’t take to racing she would have a life as a riding horse.

She was five and a half before she ran in her first bumper (NH flat race), and fully six before she jumped a hurdle in training. She is now eight and has won her last two races for us. We (owners and trainer) worry about every race we put her in. We enter so many races but don’t declare because the ground isn’t right. Her well being is the priority of her owners, trainer and his staff especially her rider/groom who obviously loves her very much.

In the summer she has her shoes off and she lives out with the other mares, all in one big herd.

When she retires we would like to breed from her and I see no harm in this. She is a big tough mare, she has won in a field of fourteen when she was the only mare. Her temperament has not changed from becoming a racehorse, she is still the sweet girl she was when we had her with us. She still likes a polo mint!

I don't think I could bare all the stress each time she ran. It must be very hard for you all with the build up to a race and then the actual race itself.

How can you possible enjoy that knowing each race could be her last?. This isn't a criticism, its a genuine question not meant nasty at all. I'm just curious. I think the worry would far outweigh any pleasure I got from the whole adventure.

Its like living on a knife edge constantly trying to keep a horse sound without worrying about one that is racing where the odds of injury or death are considerably higher.

 

[ponynutz]

Maybe this debate has run its course !

Yes, definitely! Was just pointing out given someone brought it up.

Perhaps this is the sort of outcome we are looking for in racing though, thinking about it further. Not to cancel the whole idea of racing (although I know that's not what many of you are trying to do) but to find some middle ground and encourage the general public to think about what they are possibly supporting when they bet on races.

 

[ihatework]

As a racehorse owner (50%) I think it is good that we can have a debate about the right and wrongs of racing and this thread has at least cleared up some misconceptions about racing, for instance, qualifications for GN entry.
All the owners I know care deeply what happens to their horses both in training and afterwards. For our horse we started her education not with the trainer but with a dressage rider. He backed her and we were delighted with the way she went. I had a sit on her the day before she left for training and I was confident if she didn’t take to racing she would have a life as a riding horse.

She was five and a half before she ran in her first bumper (NH flat race), and fully six before she jumped a hurdle in training. She is now eight and has won her last two races for us. We (owners and trainer) worry about every race we put her in. We enter so many races but don’t declare because the ground isn’t right. Her well being is the priority of her owners, trainer and his staff especially her rider/groom who obviously loves her very much.

In the summer she has her shoes off and she lives out with the other mares, all in one big herd.

When she retires we would like to breed from her and I see no harm in this. She is a big tough mare, she has won in a field of fourteen when she was the only mare. Her temperament has not changed from becoming a racehorse, she is still the sweet girl she was when we had her with us. She still likes a polo mint!

Just how it should be done. But sadly not the norm.

 

[Odyssey]

Dead horses are no longer suffering - it’s the many thousands that are alive and suffering that are the issue.

Also, whilst we ought not digress too far into non horse territory, whilst the actual death may not be considered cruel, the hours in the build up to that point are often horrendous (only a minute % of livestock animals die in ‘nice’ British abattoirs), many millions of beef animals live very miserable lives without access to shade or water.

And all of it, horse, cow, sheep, farmed rabbit, whatever, is for our benefit.

Not wishing to derail the thread, but absolutely no abattoir on earth is "nice"! There's a vast amount of unnecessary cruelty in British abattoirs, kicking, punching and general abuse of animals is unfortunately far from uncommon, and that's without the animals presumably sensing that something awful is about to happen to them. I'm sure their senses are far stronger than we realise. When they enter the killing chamber (I think that's the correct term) and see what's happening to the animals in front of them, being shackled and stunned, they must be absolutely terrified.

People who care about animals want to think that British farm animals have it good, and though our standards are supposedly better than those in most countries, suffering and cruelty is endemic in factory farming and slaughter, even those adhering to "best practice". You cannot separate the two.

I thought recently that if we came from another planet that didn't rear animals to eat, use in laboratories etc but coexisted alongside them without exploiting them in any way, most of us would be absolutely horrified and heartbroken to see how they "live" and die. Dairy farming is no better than farming for meat, and is probably actually worse. The cows are always tired and hungry because they are forced to produce unnaturally vast quantities of milk, lameness isn't uncommon, and the cow and calf suffer terribly when the calves are removed at a day old, I think. The poor bull calves in many countries end up in obscenely cruel veal crates. The more time goes on, the more ashamed I feel to be human, we do this to animals because we can, not because we should. I'm veggie and wish I could put my principles into action and become a vegan. I know I'm a hypocrite, because I haven't shied away from learning about the realities of animal farming and yet I still eat eggs and some dairy, and my dog is fed standard dog food.

Sorry, I realise that I should have started a new thread, but I can't retype all this!

 

[MrsMyope]

Hi Stangs yes she is with a smaller trainer and the love and respect he has for his horses is evident. A lot of his horse do well in ROR when they are finished racing.
Birker I do worry every time she goes racing but we make sure she is fit to race and that the race will suit her for distance and ground etc. For instance she was entered for a race last week but the ground wasn’t right so we didn’t run her and the horse she had beaten by 8 lengths in her previous race won by 9 lengths! We would never risk her just because a race was worth more money. She is fit and ready to race but unless the ground is right then that will be it for the season.

 

[ponynutz]

Hi Stangs yes she is with a smaller trainer and the love and respect he has for his horses is evident. A lot of his horse do well in ROR when they are finished racing.
Birker I do worry every time she goes racing but we make sure she is fit to race and that the race will suit her for distance and ground etc. For instance she was entered for a race last week but the ground wasn’t right so we didn’t run her and the horse she had beaten by 8 lengths in her previous race won by 9 lengths! We would never risk her just because a race was worth more money. She is fit and ready to race but unless the ground is right then that will be it for the season.

You are the sort of person we need every race horse owner to be!

 

[Peglo]

I don't think I could bare all the stress each time she ran. It must be very hard for you all with the build up to a race and then the actual race itself.

How can you possible enjoy that knowing each race could be her last?. This isn't a criticism, its a genuine question not meant nasty at all. I'm just curious. I think the worry would far outweigh any pleasure I got from the whole adventure.

Its like living on a knife edge constantly trying to keep a horse sound without worrying about one that is racing where the odds of injury or death are considerably higher.

You could also say the same every time we take our horses out on the road with all the lunatic drivers around. unfortunately and devastatingly there are lots of accidents on the roads and it’s a risk we take and we can only hope people will be courteous and help keep us safe

@MrsMyope very interesting hearing your side. Thank you.

ETA sorry that’s a bit of whataboutary again but that’s where my mind took me with this line of discussion.

 

[Birker2020]

You could also say the same every time we take our horses out on the road with all the lunatic drivers around. unfortunately and devastatingly there are lots of accidents on the roads and it’s a risk we take and we can only hope people will be courteous and help keep us safe
.

Well not quite the same element of danger or probability but I get your point.

 

[TheMule]

Not wishing to derail the thread, but absolutely no abattoir on earth is "nice"! There's a vast amount of unnecessary cruelty in British abattoirs, kicking, punching and general abuse of animals is unfortunately far from uncommon, and that's without the animals presumably sensing that something awful is about to happen to them. I'm sure their senses are far stronger than we realise. When they enter the killing chamber (I think that's the correct term) and see what's happening to the animals in front of them, being shackled and stunned, they must be absolutely terrified.


Sorry, I realise that I should have started a new thread, but I can't retype all this!

Have you ever been to an abattoir? Because I have spent a bit of time in a couple of different ones and actually I think you'd be pleasantly surprised as it's nothing like what you have described. Animals dieing is not 'nice' for sure, but what I have witnessed has been entirely quick and humane endings.
I'm not disputing that there is cruelty in some abattoirs and that needs to stop, but a lot of time and research has gone into setting them up to be as stress free as possible for the various different types of animal.

 

[SO1]

There needs to be more owners like you who understand horses and their welfare.

I expect most race horse owners are far removed from their purchase and won't question trainers decisions or will push trainers to get the maximum wins even if detrimental to the long term welfare of the horse or if the run is risky because of conditions perhaps because they don't ride themselves or have knowledge of horses they are in it for the prestige of owning a racehorse and seeing it race rather than because they have any interest in horses.

I am glad your horse gets turnout but I expect rarely rare is this something the trainer provides or do owners have to source this themselves out of season. I owners who do not have knowledge of horse care may find it harder to source somewhere to turn away out of season.

Hi Stangs yes she is with a smaller trainer and the love and respect he has for his horses is evident. A lot of his horse do well in ROR when they are finished racing.
Birker I do worry every time she goes racing but we make sure she is fit to race and that the race will suit her for distance and ground etc. For instance she was entered for a race last week but the ground wasn’t right so we didn’t run her and the horse she had beaten by 8 lengths in her previous race won by 9 lengths! We would never risk her just because a race was worth more money. She is fit and ready to race but unless the ground is right then that will be it for the season.

 

[bonny]

There needs to be more owners like you who understand horses and their welfare.

I expect most race horse owners are far removed from their purchase and won't question trainers decisions or will push trainers to get the maximum wins even if detrimental to the long term welfare of the horse or if the run is risky because of conditions perhaps because they don't ride themselves or have knowledge of horses they are in it for the prestige of owning a racehorse and seeing it race rather than because they have any interest in horses.

I am glad your horse gets turnout but I expect rarely rare is this something the trainer provides or do owners have to source this themselves out of season. I owners who do not have knowledge of horse care may find it harder to source somewhere to turn away out of season.

Every single trainer will have turnout for the horses.

 

[milliepops]

they might not all get to use it though. i stable next door to a yard full of racehorses which go on the walker and to the gallops but never in the field.

 

[ester]

Every single trainer will have turnout for the horses.

Inc the Newmarket ones in the middle of town?

 

[sbloom]

Turnout, from what I see around Newmarket, is for bloodstock in the main. Hopefully someone can say that's not the case.

 

[RachelFerd]

Every single trainer will have turnout for the horses.

Uhhh, nope. I worked in Newmarket and there are many yards without even a postage stamp for turnout.

This could be resolved by the BHA refusing to license yards which do not have adequate turnout, but yards without turnout continue to be common, and even the 'norm' in some of the major racing centres.

I did ten years in the industry in both Epsom and Newmarket and also have a foundation degree in horseracing management. These days I fundamentally disagree with the way in which about 95% of yards train and keep their horses. I can't think of many excuses for what happens - even if galloping a horse at dawn on Newmarket heath was one of the greatest pleasures in my life.

 

[LEC]

Inc the Newmarket ones in the middle of town?

@RachelFerd wrote an article on this.