Debate for the rights and wrongs of racing

[ponynutz]

Sorry if this is whataboutery or completely too far off tangent of thread, just where my head went seeing as this is a debate - ignore if it is!

There's a riding school yard in the centre of London where the horses only get turnout for around 6 weeks in summer I believe. And of course the horse guard which are living in the centre of London for some of the time. Does this mean that Newmarket should maybe be given some leeway?

 

[bonny]

Sorry if this is whataboutery or completely too far off tangent of thread, just where my head went seeing as this is a debate - ignore if it is!

There's a riding school yard in the centre of London where the horses only get turnout for around 6 weeks in summer I believe. And of course the horse guard which are living in the centre of London for some of the time. Does this mean that Newmarket should maybe be given some leeway?

They only need to have access to turnout, it doesn't have to be at the yard,

 

[ester]

So do they?

 

[Odyssey]

Have you ever been to an abattoir? Because I have spent a bit of time in a couple of different ones and actually I think you'd be pleasantly surprised as it's nothing like what you have described. Animals dieing is not 'nice' for sure, but what I have witnessed has been entirely quick and humane endings.
I'm not disputing that there is cruelty in some abattoirs and that needs to stop, but a lot of time and research has gone into setting them up to be as stress free as possible for the various different types of animal.

No I haven't, and couldn't go in one. I've seen it on TV where it's been done quickly and by the book, and still found it very upsetting and horrific. I would think that abuse usually goes on when the perpetrators don't have witnesses, but if they do, they should be sacked. Even if it's only happening to a very small percentage of animals, it's disgusting and shouldn't be happening at all.. Then there's the issue of halal slaughter. I also dread to think of the standards in many foreign abattoirs, where animal welfare standards are very low/non existent. I think (hope) one day the world will look back in utter horror at the way we've used and abused animals, and not just for meat. Why is it considered acceptable to do this to animals purely because they're a different species from us?

 

[Birker2020]

Have you ever been to an abattoir? Because I have spent a bit of time in a couple of different ones and actually I think you'd be pleasantly surprised as it's nothing like what you have described. Animals dieing is not 'nice' for sure, but what I have witnessed has been entirely quick and humane endings.
I'm not disputing that there is cruelty in some abattoirs and that needs to stop, but a lot of time and research has gone into setting them up to be as stress free as possible for the various different types of animal.

I believe that animals are not permitted to see other animals slaughtered so usually the kill pen is enclosed, usually a metal box, kill pen has a metal door that comes down between the animal in front, so when that is slaughtered and gone the next one goes in and so on.

 

[ester]

@RachelFerd wrote an article on this.

I think you posted at the same time as her ?

 

[Birker2020]

Then there's the issue of halal slaughter.

Yep, my ex worked as a slaughter man in Ireland. Came over to live in Birmingham and worked in a halal processing factory/slaughter house in Birmingham City Centre, walked out after three days, couldn't cope with what he saw. Said it was horrific.

 

[stangs]

There's a riding school yard in the centre of London where the horses only get turnout for around 6 weeks in summer I believe. And of course the horse guard which are living in the centre of London for some of the time. Does this mean that Newmarket should maybe be given some leeway?

I'm not sure which specific RS you're talking about, but, to give some examples of how central London RS cope with minimal turnout:

1) Ross Nye and Hyde Park keep horses both in London and in yards outside of London - the horses get rotated, so they get turnout in chunks, and then Ross Nye also takes theirs on holiday in the Easter and Summer I believe.

2) Ebony has a small turnout areas (and used to turn out in the arena too; I don't know if they still do). VCF used to turn out their horses in both the arena and in a small paddock. Both stables send/sent their horses on 3-5 week holidays 3 times a year: Easter, summer and winter.

Most RS here either rotate horses like (1) or send them on regular holidays like (2). Is it an ideal solution? No. And I'd argue that (2) is the better option as the horses are able to interact with each other more regularly - the two Hyde Park stables have no turn out whatsoever when the horses are in London.

In contrast, from what I've seen of Epsom race yards (and watched videos of the trainers themselves talking), the racehorses get little turnout. Those that do are pretty much always turned out alone. And this is in the Green Belt where there's more space.

Most riding schools are doing their best to provide turnout given financial restraints. So, no, Newmarket gets no leeway.

 

[RachelFerd]

And it isn't just Newmarket. Here's a well known yard back on the rental market. It has 106 stables, but 2.2 acres of turnout.

https://www.windsorclive.co.uk/equestrian-property/berkshire/kingwood-house-stables

So theoretically, if that 2.2 acres was split into 8 1/4 acre tiny paddocks, each of your horses could have 30 minutes turnout alone every day, if you had a team of people specifically just turning out and bringing in. Is that in any way satisfactory?

The reality will be that most horses are not ever turned out whilst in training there.

 

[cauda equina]

And it isn't just Newmarket. Here's a well known yard back on the rental market. It has 106 stables, but 2.2 acres of turnout.

https://www.windsorclive.co.uk/equestrian-property/berkshire/kingwood-house-stables

So theoretically, if that 2.2 acres was split into 8 1/4 acre tiny paddocks, each of your horses could have 30 minutes turnout alone every day, if you had a team of people specifically just turning out and bringing in. Is that in any way satisfactory?

The reality will be that most horses are not ever turned out whilst in training there.

78 acres in total, yet only 2.2 acres of turnout!
Of course some of the 78 acres is buildings, gallops and so on but with so much unused space they obviously don't consider lack of turnout to be a problem

 

[ponynutz]

I'm not sure which specific RS you're talking about, but, to give some examples of how central London RS cope with minimal turnout:

1) Ross Nye and Hyde Park keep horses both in London and in yards outside of London - the horses get rotated, so they get turnout in chunks, and then Ross Nye also takes theirs on holiday in the Easter and Summer I believe.

2) Ebony has a small turnout areas (and used to turn out in the arena too; I don't know if they still do). VCF used to turn out their horses in both the arena and in a small paddock. Both stables send/sent their horses on 3-5 week holidays 3 times a year: Easter, summer and winter.

Most RS here either rotate horses like (1) or send them on regular holidays like (2). Is it an ideal solution? No. And I'd argue that (2) is the better option as the horses are able to interact with each other more regularly - the two Hyde Park stables have no turn out whatsoever when the horses are in London.

In contrast, from what I've seen of Epsom race yards (and watched videos of the trainers themselves talking), the racehorses get little turnout. Those that do are pretty much always turned out alone. And this is in the Green Belt where there's more space.

Most riding schools are doing their best to provide turnout given financial restraints. So, no, Newmarket gets no leeway.

100% agree with you. Especially given location as you say and the amount of money pumped into the racing industry it's barbaric riding school's are doing a better job at overcoming these sorts of problems.

 

[humblepie]

Without knowing figures from accounts I follow, a lot of jump horses get turnout - there is one trainer in Yorkshire whose horses go out in a pack all together and then come back in that way - not being led just sorting themselves out. There is a trainer in Newmarket who often puts up little videos of his flat horses being turned out and getting absolutely filthy. Fully accept that many in Newmarket won't have those facilities though. I know it is whataboutary (is that the phrase?) but livery yard I was at a while back in the winter horses weren't turned out because of the work load of doing rugs, cleaning horses etc. Mine was the only part livery and he went out each day with the retired horses and they thought I was very strange as didn't worry about him getting plastered in mud. My retired flat horse was used to being turned out in company whilst he was still racing.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

All of ours get turned out every day, 7 days a week for at least an hour. When they are in work and fully shod they go into individual paddocks but they can talk and interact with their neighbours over the fence. Some don't like being on their own even with others next to them so they go out with one of our 3 OAP's. All 3 horses were once racehorses who were yard favourites and they stayed because they were useful. They won't leave either, they will be buried at the yard.

Holidays are different. Horses get turned out in single gender groups of anything from 3 to 20 depending on the size of the field. Shoes off, rugs off, roughed off for 8-10 weeks.

A lot more yards are turning out where possible. Some yards (Brian Ellison comes to mind) have areas behind the stables that the horses are free to wander in and out of. Obviously individually, their doors are left open and they can go in or out as they please.

The majority of yards will have somewhere that they can turn the horses out in groups on their holidays.

What does amaze me is how many people will put up with little or no turnout all winter at livery yards.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Is one of the main issues with racing the fact that horses have evolved to be the most odd combination of strength and fragility?

For example, if you could 99% of the time fix a horse's broken leg and it could then return to soundness would that make a difference? If my cat broke his leg, I could take him to the vet as quickly as I could and I'd be pretty certain that he's be OK after healing up. However with a horse when they break a leg it's hard to fix and euthanasia is often the most humane course of action (and no, I don't think the word 'killed' is correct in this situation although I'm sure that animal aid would).

Now the vet on track would more than likely get to the horse quicker than I can drive to the vet. Is one not OK because the end result is euthanasia, while the other is Ok because the cat will probably go on for a few more years after recovery? It's still an animal with the pain of a broken leg after all. Is it death we have an issue with?

Just some musings.

 

[RachelFerd]

Is one of the main issues with racing the fact that horses have evolved to be the most odd combination of strength and fragility?

For example, if you could 99% of the time fix a horse's broken leg and it could then return to soundness would that make a difference? If my cat broke his leg, I could take him to the vet as quickly as I could and I'd be pretty certain that he's be OK after healing up. However with a horse when they break a leg it's hard to fix and euthanasia is often the most humane course of action (and no, I don't think the word 'killed' is correct in this situation although I'm sure that animal aid would).

Now the vet on track would more than likely get to the horse quicker than I can drive to the vet. Is one not OK because the end result is euthanasia, while the other is Ok because the cat will probably go on for a few more years after recovery? It's still an animal with the pain of a broken leg after all. Is it death we have an issue with?

Just some musings.

I think the difference is that your cat will have broken his leg doing cat activities that he had actively chosen to do. In the same way that a horse that breaks it leg playing in the field is tragic, but 'one of those things' - whereas you weren't (hopefully) putting your cat deliberately into a scenario where breaking his leg became a fairly likely outcome, which is where NH racing is at.

 

[bonny]

I think the difference is that your cat will have broken his leg doing cat activities that he had actively chosen to do. In the same way that a horse that breaks it leg playing in the field is tragic, but 'one of those things' - whereas you weren't (hopefully) putting your cat deliberately into a scenario where breaking his leg became a fairly likely outcome, which is where NH racing is at.

Breaking a leg is not a fairly likely outcome.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I think the difference is that your cat will have broken his leg doing cat activities that he had actively chosen to do. In the same way that a horse that breaks it leg playing in the field is tragic, but 'one of those things' - whereas you weren't (hopefully) putting your cat deliberately into a scenario where breaking his leg became a fairly likely outcome, which is where NH racing is at.

Some people on here would definitely argue that I endanger him and make it more likely for him to have an injury as he is allowed outside.

 

[RachelFerd]

Breaking a leg is not a fairly likely outcome.

I think the number being quoted above, which sounds plausible, is 1 in 250. Which is much more likely than were the horse in a field. Horses break legs in fields, but not 1 in 250 times (else we'd all be losing a horse to a field accident on an annual basis).

 

[RachelFerd]

Some people on here would definitely argue that I endanger him and make it more likely for him to have an injury as he is allowed outside.

Allowed outside of his own volition though - which is different to throwing him out of a window and seeing if he lands the jump (for example...)

 

[ponynutz]

Breaking a leg is not a fairly likely outcome.

1 out of every 200 horses that start will break a leg apparently (quick google search). Around 10,000 races happen in this country every year and probably around 12-20 horses in each race. That's not to mention other similar injuries like Discorama's fatal pelvis injury. I'd say it's more of a fairly likely outcome than it isn't one.

If we say there's a set number of 12 horses per race and we only focus on the biggest thirteen races then that's not even one breaking a leg... sure, so that's not so bad? I'd agree with you. But if we then take all of the races that happen in the UK and say there's a set number of 12 horses per race it comes to 600 horses a year breaking legs which is a much, much scarier number.

Not to come back to the earlier debate on this thread (because it's been said and done) but I wonder how that compares to other horse sports?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I guess it's all about what risks we are willing to accept. I don't think that everyone will have the same answer but being too risk adverse could also have a negative effect on horse welfare (too scared to turn out is an example).

PS. I have popped the cat out of a ground floor window but not thrown him. So far all landings have resulted in no injuries. Possibly safer than NH racing then.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

OK there is a huge difference between breaking a leg at a gallop and a cat breaking a leg. For a start if the break is too bad the cat has the option of amputation, a horse does not. A cat also has the option of pins and plates, a horse does not. Pins and plates are not an option because of the sheer volume of weight of the horse that the leg has to carry. Yes we can pin some fractures but they are fractures, not displaced breaks.

We can not fix a broken bone done at speed for a number of reasons. Mainly because when the leg hits the ground there is the best part of 2 tonnes of pressure going through that one limb at that moment in time. This bends the bone ever so slightly. The bone breaks when bent the pieces stay bent. You can't put thay back together because the pieces don't fit back together. Some have tried to varying levels of success by using metal work to replace bone but it doesn't hold up and ultimately fails. The one they got closest to fixing was St Nicholas Abbey. But we will never know if it would have held up to stud work over time as he colicked. What we learned from this though is incredibly valuable to veterinary science. Giving an idea of what could be done to a similar injury in future and what should be avoided.

 

[ponynutz]

I guess it's all about what risks we are willing to accept. I don't think that everyone will have the same answer but being too risk adverse could also have a negative effect on horse welfare (too scared to turn out is an example).

PS. I have popped the cat out of a ground floor window but not thrown him. So far all landings have resulted in no injuries. Possibly safer than NH racing then.

Clearly what we really need is horses to be made of the same jelly consistency that cats are lol! Ours insist on flinging themselves off the roof after sneaking out the open skylight (so far no injuries)

 

[Meowy Catkin]

OK there is a huge difference between breaking a leg at a gallop and a cat breaking a leg. For a start if the break is too bad the cat has the option of amputation, a horse does not. A cat also has the option of pins and plates, a horse does not. Pins and plates are not an option because of the sheer volume of weight of the horse that the leg has to carry. Yes we can pin some fractures but they are fractures, not displaced breaks.

We can not fix a broken bone done at speed for a number of reasons. Mainly because when the leg hits the ground there is the best part of 2 tonnes of pressure going through that one limb at that moment in time. This bends the bone ever so slightly. The bone breaks when bent the pieces stay bent. You can't put thay back together because the pieces don't fit back together. Some have tried to varying levels of success by using metal work to replace bone but it doesn't hold up and ultimately fails. The one they got closest to fixing was St Nicholas Abbey. But we will never know if it would have held up to stud work over time as he colicked. What we learned from this though is incredibly valuable to veterinary science. Giving an idea of what could be done to a similar injury in future and what should be avoided.

Thank you for explaining what I was hinting at but failing to say clearly. Cats and horses are very different animals. One you can fix a broken leg on easily, the other you can't.

So why is the time that it takes for a vet to get to the horse and euthanise 'cruel' where as the time it takes for me to get the cat to the vet (probably longer in time) fine? Is the difference literally the chance of survival? The end result with one being alive and the other likely dead?

RachelFerd made a good point about risk of injury due to the activity the animal was taking part in.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Sorry I'm probably not adding anything helpful to the discussion, a thought just popped into my head and I thought I'd see what others thought.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Thank you for explaining what I was hinting at but failing to say clearly. Cats and horses are very different animals. One you can fix a broken leg on easily, the other you can't.

So why is the time that it takes for a vet to get to the horse and euthanise 'cruel' where as the time it takes for me to get the cat to the vet (probably longer in time) fine? Is the difference literally the chance of survival? The end result with one being alive and the other likely dead?

RachelFerd made a good point about risk of injury due to the activity the animal was taking part in.

A broken leg on the track is 99% fatal. Regardless of how long it takes for the vet to get there. In this case less than 60 seconds as they follow the horses round in a car.

 

[ponynutz]

Sorry I'm probably not adding anything helpful to the discussion, a thought just popped into my head and I thought I'd see what others thought.

Nah, this is a debate, it's fun throwing a new spanner in the works sometimes! Wouldn't worry

 

[ycbm]

1 out of every 200 horses that start will break a leg apparently (quick google search).

That's way too high for broken legs, I don't know where that came from. About ten years back the published figure by the BHA was 1 starter in 250 would die on course, from any one of a number of reasons. I can't find the current figure but I do think changes due concern over deaths will have reduced it a little.
.

 

[fankino04]

Thank you for explaining what I was hinting at but failing to say clearly. Cats and horses are very different animals. One you can fix a broken leg on easily, the other you can't.

So why is the time that it takes for a vet to get to the horse and euthanise 'cruel' where as the time it takes for me to get the cat to the vet (probably longer in time) fine? Is the difference literally the chance of survival? The end result with one being alive and the other likely dead?

RachelFerd made a good point about risk of injury due to the activity the animal was taking part in.

I think the cruelty aspect possibly comes from people's lack of knowledge around when a horse can recover from a broken leg ( thanks Elf for the explanation), many people know that a broken or probably more often a fractured leg is no longer a death sentence for a horse ( a friends recovered fine from a spiral fracture) so often people will assume that rather than treat the horse and then probably have to pay for its retirement as it won't race again and will probably be too difficult to rehome as there's already so many out there looking for homes that haven't had a broken leg, the uncaring, selfish, only interested in the money owner will choose to have the horse PTS and get the insurance instead of try to save them.

 

[Cortez]

I think the cruelty aspect possibly comes from people's lack of knowledge around when a horse can recover from a broken leg ( thanks Elf for the explanation), many people know that a broken or probably more often a fractured leg is no longer a death sentence for a horse ( a friends recovered fine from a spiral fracture) so often people will assume that rather than treat the horse and then probably have to pay for its retirement as it won't race again and will probably be too difficult to rehome as there's already so many out there looking for homes that haven't had a broken leg, the uncaring, selfish, only interested in the money owner will choose to have the horse PTS and get the insurance instead of try to save them.

Most horses are still euthanised after a broken leg, the recovery rates are quite poor and putting a horse through the type of extensive, long drawn out rehab required is not my idea of being "kind". Your analysis of an owners reasons for putting a horse down because of a leg break is extremely biased. Whilst there may be some with the attitudes you describe, the racehorse owners I know are not at all like that.