Debate for the rights and wrongs of racing

[fankino04]

Most horses are still euthanised after a broken leg, the recovery rates are quite poor and putting a horse through the type of extensive, long drawn out rehab required is not my idea of being "kind". Your analysis of an owners reasons for putting a horse down because of a leg break is extremely biased. Whilst there may be some with the attitudes you describe, the racehorse owners I know are not at all like that.

I never said that was my opinion, I said that may be how some people see it. There's always comments on Facebook from anti racing people saying that racehorse owners don't care about their horses and just want the insurance money if they aren't going to make them any money again.

 

[bonny]

I never said that was my opinion, I said that may be how some people see it. There's always comments on Facebook from anti racing people saying that racehorse owners don't care about their horses and just want the insurance money if they aren't going to make them any money again.

Do you realise that the majority of racehorse owners are just paying for the privilege of owning them and they will only ever lose money ?

 

[Flame_]

I guess it's all about what risks we are willing to accept. I don't think that everyone will have the same answer but being too risk adverse could also have a negative effect on horse welfare (too scared to turn out is an example).

Being too death adverse can also have a negative effect on horse welfare. I worry with racing that people may be discouraged from having broken down horses instantly destroyed at the scene for the better PR of "going off to horse hospital" rather than "dies in race". Also some treatments may have a reasonable to good prognosis, but they still are not happy situations to inflict on horses (I'm thinking the horses cross tied for weeks, etc). I'm not sure that things are changing in quite the right way for the right reasons, if that makes sense?

 

[ponynutz]

That's way too high for broken legs, I don't know where that came from. About ten years back the published figure by the BHA was 1 starter in 250 would die on course, from any one of a number of reasons. I can't find the current figure but I do think changes due concern over deaths will have reduced it a little.
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Ye was the result of a very quick google search (as I said) so possibly!

Good to hear concern over deaths has had some minor positive outcome even if that is only a drop of 50 starters... bit of hope for the future?

 

[Fred66]

1 out of every 200 horses that start will break a leg apparently (quick google search). Around 10,000 races happen in this country every year and probably around 12-20 horses in each race. That's not to mention other similar injuries like Discorama's fatal pelvis injury. I'd say it's more of a fairly likely outcome than it isn't one.

If we say there's a set number of 12 horses per race and we only focus on the biggest thirteen races then that's not even one breaking a leg... sure, so that's not so bad? I'd agree with you. But if we then take all of the races that happen in the UK and say there's a set number of 12 horses per race it comes to 600 horses a year breaking legs which is a much, much scarier number.

Not to come back to the earlier debate on this thread (because it's been said and done) but I wonder how that compares to other horse sports?

The number quoted earlier in the thread was under 200 died in 2019 which is nearer to 1 in 500 with average of 10 per race.

 

[ponynutz]

The number quoted earlier in the thread was under 200 died in 2019 which is nearer to 1 in 500 with average of 10 per race.

Dangit - won't let me edit it to say numbers are wrong! Mistook Bonny's comment anyway - she was talking about cat legs not horse legs (if there was a delete button now would be the time to use it methinks!)

Thanks for clarifying for me though

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Because we have awesome vets and awesome technology these horses were all fixed. One did not run again as he was due to retire 2 months later, he sadly brought that forward with the first injury of his life. And I will try to explain a little as I go as to why we could save these.

Zoom in! Honestly! Find the cracks!

So this lad was 11yo when he broke the accessory carpal bone at the back his knee. He went to jump a hurdle on a long stride -a stride he would have flown had he been 5 years younger - realised at the last moment he wasn't going to make it then tried to put back down to take a real short, chipped in stride. What resulted was him going over the hurdle with one front leg forward, one back. He fell. This bone was crushed on impact, this was the leg that was back so he landed on his knee first. He was on box rest for 8 weeks, 4 of those in a big bandage. Then on the walker before being turned out after 3.5 months. He was rehomed as a happy hacker. He was sound and if he was younger he would have raced on. We could not out a screw in this because of where it was even though it was a clean break. If it has been horizontal rater than vertical he could have had a screw.



This one you can see a nice condular fracture. Because it was quite a long one it got 2 pins in it. I would love to say it's done with all high tech stuff but it's just heavy duty screws and a black and decker drill! This horse had thus done 2 years ago and is still sound and racing now.





Again we couldn't pin this horses leg because not only did he have a condular fracture of the front cannon bone he had a secondary horizontal fracture. If we had put a pin across the the vertical crack we risked pulling the horizontal one apart. 10 weeks in a box, 8 in a big stookie, 2 months on the horse walker, 3 months in a field and he has gone on to race for another 3 years up to now and is still going with no further issues



We could save these horses because the bone hadn't split apart. They were fractured but not displaced. You can not fix a displaced fracture of a limb. You can't push it back into place and pin or plate it. Some people don't like their horses being pinned and will let the horse heal naturally, sometimes it takes longer, sometimes it doesn't. I personally wouldn't pin them if I could avoid it.

Eta - I should point out that the condular fractures are stress fractures done in training not on the track. These horses would have pulled up a bit sore off the gallop and got progressively lamer as they walked home. The limb was still in one solid piece. We have had horses have catastrophic bone breaks on the gallops. Obviously we don't have xrays of them as they were put down on the gallop. Their legs were swinging. You know if the limb swings it's displaced and is thus catastrophic.

 

[humblepie]

91,287 runners in 2021 That is not individual horses but total number of runs

 

[ycbm]

The number quoted earlier in the thread was under 200 died in 2019 which is nearer to 1 in 500 with average of 10 per race.

The 1 in 500 includes flat racers I think, making it a much higher figure for NH horses alone.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I never said that was my opinion, I said that may be how some people see it. There's always comments on Facebook from anti racing people saying that racehorse owners don't care about their horses and just want the insurance money if they aren't going to make them any money again.

Yes, I can see that non horse people especially could interpret a lack of trying to fix an injury as a lack of caring, when in reality the opposite is true: they don't try because it would be a futile endeavour that would only prolong the horse's suffering.

However it would be a very bad thing for welfare if the ignorant dictated what happened to injured horses, which relates to Flame's post above.

 

[Fred66]

The 1 in 500 includes flat racers I think, making it a much higher figure for NH horses alone.

Would need to work out races and average horses for flat and NH before you could determine that

 

[PipsqueakXy22]

Havent managed to read all the replies but im also another one who's not a fan of racing. Im sure many people (owners, grooms, jockeys etc) love their race horses but i think think any amount of love or well treatment justifies chucking a saddle on a 2 year old and making it run as fast as they can. I often look at a dangly little 2 year old tb and think how do they even manage to carry a person (I know jockeys are light) and run so fast. And i saw some people say they have just as many problems as other warmbloods but in my personal experience they usually have more. My own ex racer was diagnosed with arthtiris at age 12, another one on my yard is only 6 and has arthritis in both hind legs.
I know theres the issue that waiting till a proper age to race (till 4 years or older) costs a lot more obviously, and that it may not be financially viable, so i personally dont know what the answer is, but for me personally if racing were banned I wouldnt loose sleep over it

 

[nagblagger]

Jockeys have soft whips - they don't use spurs (either used correctly or wrongly) and 'normal' hard whips as in other disciplines. Just another thought...

(As an aside, i did have a horse with a displaced fracture of the elbow which was manipulated and fixed with pin and plate)

 

[PipsqueakXy22]

Have you ever been to an abattoir? Because I have spent a bit of time in a couple of different ones and actually I think you'd be pleasantly surprised as it's nothing like what you have described. Animals dieing is not 'nice' for sure, but what I have witnessed has been entirely quick and humane endings.
I'm not disputing that there is cruelty in some abattoirs and that needs to stop, but a lot of time and research has gone into setting them up to be as stress free as possible for the various different types of animal.

I have to agree with this, I spent a couple weeks in an abbattoir and it was a 'nice' abbattor (for lack of a better word), very clean spacious pens and i didnt see any stressed animals being kicked or punched and it was all over before they knew what happened, I know there are always the ones that gives everyone a bad name but the media usually only show the bad ones...

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Jockeys have soft whips - they don't use spurs (either used correctly or wrongly) and 'normal' hard whips as in other disciplines. Just another thought...

(As an aside, i did have a horse with a displaced fracture of the elbow which was manipulated and fixed with pin and plate)

Yes high up knobbly bits can be rejigged and fixed, I was talking more of the most common lower limb injuries which can't be fixed. The ones you see on TV like poor Sir Eric with the limb flailing about completely useless. It also depends on how the injury occurred as to the treatment and prognosis.

 

[Fred66]

91,287 runners in 2021 That is not individual horses but total number of runs

Just googled so source and accuracy is not verified but 220 died that year which is 1 in 416

220 was the highest ever recorded

 

[ycbm]

Would need to work out races and average horses for flat and NH before you could determine that

Are you denying (to yourself) that more NH racers die on course than flat racers? You must be able to see the reality of that with your own eyes, surely?

If in doubt take a look at the download I pointed to up thread from 2017, it has different colour bars for flat grass, flat surface and NH and the NH colour looks about twice the other two together.

ETA I don't believe the figure is better than 1 in 300 starters for NH , about the number you would typically get in a weekend of eventing. I also think it is disengenuous of the BHA and an attempt to whitewash the reality by ceasing to publish the NH deaths clearly and separately from the flat racing.
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[PipsqueakXy22]

And it isn't just Newmarket. Here's a well known yard back on the rental market. It has 106 stables, but 2.2 acres of turnout.

https://www.windsorclive.co.uk/equestrian-property/berkshire/kingwood-house-stables

So theoretically, if that 2.2 acres was split into 8 1/4 acre tiny paddocks, each of your horses could have 30 minutes turnout alone every day, if you had a team of people specifically just turning out and bringing in. Is that in any way satisfactory?

The reality will be that most horses are not ever turned out whilst in training there.

I believe Hong Kong have one of the biggest racing industries in the world, and none of their horses are ever turned out, I personally think its very sad but someone said to me they are 'treated better than my horses' because they have their air conditioned stables and are exercised daily and go on the walker everyday... id personally take turnout over air conditioned stables and a horse walker any day

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I believe Hong Kong have one of the biggest racing industries in the world, and none of their horses are ever turned out, I personally think its very sad but someone said to me they are 'treated better than my horses' because they have their air conditioned stables and are exercised daily and go on the walker everyday... id personally take turnout over air conditioned stables and a horse walker any day

They are stabled in what is essentially tenement housing there. Though most horses are bought in from Australia and the ones that are the owners have to buy a return plane ticket for when the horse retires from racing so it can go back to Australia and be turned out to find a new home.

 

[milliepops]

i feel conflicted about the repair jobs... when i collected my ex racer he was in a field with other retirees inc one who had recovered from a broken pelvis - impressive commitment to the horse, i thought, when it was probably clear he wasn't going to race again. Mine had been rehabbed through a few soft tissue injuries. But after a couple of years of pretty careful training it became clear he was also a write off, he had a neck injury and at some point had been pronounced sound enough to run fast in a straight line but would never have stood up to a leisure horse life, he managed to achieve a schooling level of between intro and prelim before it all caught up with him. If long term retirement wasn't an option (and I understand why it's not, in general) then he'd have been better pts at the trainer's rather than going through the upheaval of learning to be in a pet home.

 

[PipsqueakXy22]

They are stabled in what is essentially tenement housing there. Though most horses are bought in from Australia and the ones that are the owners have to buy a return plane ticket for when the horse retires from racing so it can go back to Australia and be turned out to find a new home.

But for the time they are racing (sometimes years??) they arent turned out which i still think is quite sad, i did see a video of an ex racer going out again for the first time after returning to australia and it looked so happy and excited to be out in a field again for the first time

 

[ycbm]

i feel conflicted about the repair jobs... when i collected my ex racer he was in a field with other retirees inc one who had recovered from a broken pelvis - impressive commitment to the horse, i thought, when it was probably clear he wasn't going to race again. Mine had been rehabbed through a few soft tissue injuries. But after a couple of years of pretty careful training it became clear he was also a write off, he had a neck injury and at some point had been pronounced sound enough to run fast in a straight line but would never have stood up to a leisure horse life, he managed to achieve a schooling level of between intro and prelim before it all caught up with him. If long term retirement wasn't an option (and I understand why it's not, in general) then he'd have been better pts at the trainer's rather than going through the upheaval of learning to be in a pet home.

Me too. My last TB had never run, but his neck x rays suggested that he had had a neck crunching fall in training as a hurdler and they had turned him away until he was fit to sell. His arthritis caught up with him after 18 months in a leisure home.
.

 

[Fred66]

Are you denying (to yourself) that more NH racers die on course than flat racers? You must be able to see the reality of that with your own eyes, surely?

If in doubt take a look at the download I pointed to up thread from 2017, it has different colour bars for flat grass, flat surface and NH and the NH colour looks about twice the other two together.

ETA I don't believe the figure is better than 1 in 300 starters for NH , about the number you would typically get in a weekend of eventing. I also think it is disengenuous of the BHA and an attempt to whitewash the reality by ceasing to publish the NH deaths clearly and separately from the flat racing.
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I’m not trying to deny anything to myself or anyone else. Just stating you couldn’t determine it from the info given.
Birker2020 gave numbers of racing related horse deaths as 145 NH and 41 Flat for 2019.
To determine the numbers of deaths per runner you would need to know total runners for 2019 for NH and flat.
Approx 3.5 times more NH horses died than flat. But without the number of runners you can’t tell what the comparable death rates are

 

[ycbm]

I’m not trying to deny anything to myself or anyone else. Just stating you couldn’t determine it from the info given.
Birker2020 gave numbers of racing related horse deaths as 145 NH and 41 Flat for 2019.
To determine the numbers of deaths per runner you would need to know total runners for 2019 for NH and flat.
Approx 3.5 times more NH horses died than flat. But without the number of runners you can’t tell what the comparable death rates are

The download I pointed to up thread, gets much closer to the truth as it is all numbers of deaths per number of starts.

I believe it would come out, if the actual numbers were given, at somewhere between 1 in 250 and 1 in 300 NH starters die on course. (One a weekend of BE starts).

I don't think BHA is prepared to share, if they even collect, how many go home for assessment and are put down there within a day or two of racing.
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[Elf On A Shelf]

I’m not trying to deny anything to myself or anyone else. Just stating you couldn’t determine it from the info given.
Birker2020 gave numbers of racing related horse deaths as 145 NH and 41 Flat for 2019.
To determine the numbers of deaths per runner you would need to know total runners for 2019 for NH and flat.
Approx 3.5 times more NH horses died than flat. But without the number of runners you can’t tell what the comparable death rates are

Plus that is on the track. The wastage rate of yearlings and 2yos in flat racing is appalling. Because of their age many break bones on the gallops or break pelvis's jumping out of the stalls. All done at home so wouldn't be added to the stats.

 

[ycbm]

Plus that is on the track. The wastage rate of yearlings and 2yos in flat racing is appalling. Because of their age many break bones on the gallops or break pelvis's jumping out of the stalls. All done at home so wouldn't be added to the stats.

Elf do you see any possibility of banning racing 2 year olds? You are as unhappy about it as anyone else. I know a lot of people in racing are, but there seems no easy way out of the maze.
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[Elf On A Shelf]

Elf do you see any possibility of banning racing 2 year olds? You are as unhappy about it as anyone else. I know a lot of people in racing are, but there seems no easy way out of the maze.
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No. 2yo racing won't end any time soon sadly. I can only see the starting time in the year for them being pushed back slightly at some point in the next decade. But with the likes of valuable pattern races, especially at Royal Ascot in June, it won't happen any time soon.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

They are stabled in what is essentially tenement housing there. Though most horses are bought in from Australia and the ones that are the owners have to buy a return plane ticket for when the horse retires from racing so it can go back to Australia and be turned out to find a new home.

That's a nice idea for the Australian ones to be brought back home again we send a lot to Hong Kong but bet we don't insert that clause, it should be inserted unless they're to be used for breeding out there

 

[Jim bob]

My ex racer was from a smaller yard. They got turned out everyday, for a hour with his mates. His trainer spoke well of him and have been to see him a few years ago. Also he was so big as a yearling they let him grow and just hacked him for a year. So he didnt start training til he was 3 and he was a flat racer.

 

[TPO]

That's a nice idea for the Australian ones to be brought back home again we send a lot to Hong Kong but bet we don't insert that clause, it should be inserted unless they're to be used for breeding out there

Australia doesn't have the best reputation regarding the welfare of ex racers and there's some pretty horrific footage from abattoirs dealing with TBs...