Draw reins... Who uses them and why?

Wagtail said:
The horse learns to work long and low as in a chambon or de gouge so that the lines become slack. Working long and low lifts the back and builds up top line. You can use a pessoa on a higher setting, but this is where I do not like its action. This is where there can indeed be some 'socking in the mouth' going on. That is why I only use it on its lowest setting and have found it extremely useful in building topline.
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A lunging rope works better and never overbends the horse a Pessoa works by teaching the horse if it raised its head it pulls on its bum.the horse is trussed into a way of going.
 
Goldenstar said:
A lunging rope works better and never overbends the horse a Pessoa works by teaching the horse if it raised its head it pulls on its bum.the horse is trussed into a way of going.
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Every gadget works this way. The horse is taught that the 'right way' is the most comfortable way. Pulling on its bum is hardly a nasty thing to do. I have never seen a horse over bend in a correctly fitted pessoa. My objection to draw reins though, is that they just are not needed, where as, if you lunge, you have to replace the rider in some way if you are to exercise the right muscles. I would not use a pessoa on a riden horse, any more than I would use draw reins or a de gouge. You have the rider to ensure the horse is working correctly. A skilled rider can make the horse understand the correct way of going better than any gadget (including the pessoa).

ETA: when I lunge with two reins, I don't use any gadgets as they are not needed.
 
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Why bother with any of it?

If you are a novice rider you should not use any gadgets, as an experienced rider you have the seat, aids and knowledge not to need or to bother with them. Maybe there's an argument for using them to keep you safe but then why put yourself in an unsafe situation?

All gadgets are is a short cut to training, so assess the problem, and then spend the time working it through. If you cannot work the problem through find a trainer who can help you.
 
Wagtail said:
The horse learns to work long and low as in a chambon or de gouge so that the lines become slack. Working long and low lifts the back and builds up top line. You can use a pessoa on a higher setting, but this is where I do not like its action. This is where there can indeed be some 'socking in the mouth' going on. That is why I only use it on its lowest setting and have found it extremely useful in building topline.
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I am fully aware of the positive effects of working long and low. My question was about how you feel the horse learns to work long and low whilst in the Pessoa.

EDIT - You've answered my question above. Thank you. It works exactly the same as any other gadget, including draw reins - but persuading the horse that it is uncomfortable to go incorrectly. I can see your point re the rider shoudl be able to achieve this without the use of gadgets, but sadly - this isn't always possible.
 
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Wagtail said:
On the contrary, when I use the pessoa, if the horse is working correctly, the lines are slack and there is no 'socking' in the mouth going on at all. The only movement is a small swing in the line as you would get if riding on the buckle.
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Im not picking or attacking this, just a genuine point, so if the horse is in the pessoa and going well, therefore not being socked in the mouth why use it? And if it comes out of the correct frame and gets socked in the mouth, does this really sit comfortable with you, I would far rather a horse meet a consistent 'block' from a pair of DR, than 'socking' from a pessoa... why is one acceptable and the other is not... not much between the two really, although I think a jab is worse than a consistant block. Im not saying it is, Im just genuinely curious as to why you would prefer it, when both methods are intended to not act upon the horse when it is in self carriage?
 
Auslander said:
EDIT - You've answered my question above. Thank you. It works exactly the same as any other gadget, including draw reins - but persuading the horse that it is uncomfortable to go incorrectly. I can see your point re the rider shoudl be able to achieve this without the use of gadgets, but sadly - this isn't always possible.
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From my own perspective I have found a very knowledgable and capable trainer who I have never seen confronted with a problem that she cannot resolve. But it sometimes takes a lot of time and patience sadly, one thing many people don't have much of. In general though the problems occur because of poor training or misunderstandings which need the horse and rider to redress and this may mean going back to basics for a while.

Sometimes there is always going to be a small problem because horses don't forget and if there is a history it may always be there in some form forever. But gadgets are never going to resolve this.

I guess if you are going to use a gadget you need to know what problem it is going to resolve, how it will resolve that problem and how long it will take. If you are using it for weeks and weeks it is not resolving the problem.
 
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Wagtail said:
You would be surprised at how slow draw reins are to release as there is some friction where they pass through the bit rings and even if the rider completely drops the rein, the release is not immediate. That is why gadgets like the pessoa use pulleys rather than feeding the rein through the bit rings. I was teaching a client earlier this weeks and she had put draw reins on (much to my disapproval but hey ho, her horse). The horse knew he had them on due to having been schooled a lot in them in the past and so immediately came behind the vertical. My client kept taking up the slack along with the slack in the real reins and he was soon trotting around in rollkur! Now this just illustrates how awful these things are in novice hands. I am not suggesting for a moment that the more expeienced here would let that happen. But it does show that there is a high level of skill in using them effectively and not to the detriment of the horse. Obviously, I removed the reins PDQ!
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Mine have waxy rope going through the bit rings so no friction at all, I would say they release instantly. I cansee how leather wouldn't though.

Oops, guess I just admitted to using them! Like many others have said I prefer to use them once or twice to give the right idea to the right horse.
 
Auslander said:
So how does it have an effect then? My experience of it is that the horse resists, and the action of the Pessoa makes it clear to him that it is more comfortable not to do so.
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This is why I don't like pessoas- either the horse is getting pulled in the mouth every stride if they try to take the contact forward OR to stop that, they drop behind the contact instead of carrying the rein forward.

On draw reins- I have used them for safety and I have used them on 2 horses in the past to help them understand the canter transition- they did the job in one session and both horses had much improved transitions from that session on (not a shortlived improvement).

For at least the last 5 years I haven't felt the need to use my draw reins ridden; they are excellent for lunging in though and I do that about once a fortnight :)
 
millitiger said:
This is why I don't like pessoas- either the horse is getting pulled in the mouth every stride if they try to take the contact forward OR to stop that, they drop behind the contact instead of carrying the rein forward.

On draw reins- I have used them for safety and I have used them on 2 horses in the past to help them understand the canter transition- they did the job in one session and both horses had much improved transitions from that session on (not a shortlived improvement).

For at least the last 5 years I haven't felt the need to use my draw reins ridden; they are excellent for lunging in though and I do that about once a fortnight :)
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How can draw reins improve a canter transition, please?
 
Queenbee said:
Im not picking or attacking this, just a genuine point, so if the horse is in the pessoa and going well, therefore not being socked in the mouth why use it? And if it comes out of the correct frame and gets socked in the mouth, does this really sit comfortable with you, I would far rather a horse meet a consistent 'block' from a pair of DR, than 'socking' from a pessoa... why is one acceptable and the other is not... not much between the two really, although I think a jab is worse than a consistant block. Im not saying it is, Im just genuinely curious as to why you would prefer it, when both methods are intended to not act upon the horse when it is in self carriage?
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But we are not comparing like with like, QB. One is a lunging aid to replace the rider (if you want the horse to work over its back you have to use something). The other is an unnecessary gadget. Unnecessary because the rider should do all the correcting necessary. I am not against the principle of making the correct way of going the most comfortable way. If you ride correctly, this is also the case. But I am against using something WHILST riding which effectively ties the horse's head down and deadens the rider aids. If you rely on draw reins then you will never develop true feel. I don't believe that a rider who needs to use them 'to show a horse how to work' or 'so that the penny would drop' or 'how to bend properly' has developed true feel, or if they HAVE developed true feel and still need to use them, then they have over horsed themselves.

There is one horse here that is at the absolute limit of my riding ability. Any more big or athletic and I would be over horsed. I guess that if I HAD to over horse myself for any reason, then yes, I would be forced to use draw reins.
 
Mearas said:
How can draw reins improve a canter transition, please?
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Well for these 2 horses, it stopped them 'flicking' their noses skywards :)

They stayed in front of the vertical and it just guided them to not popping out of my hands during the strike off.

As I said, used for one session on each (had these horses at different times) and it helped me break the habit with no fuss or argument and both continued after that to stay true to the contact during the transition.
 
Wagtail said:
Every gadget works this way. The horse is taught that the 'right way' is the most comfortable way. Pulling on its bum is hardly a nasty thing to do. I have never seen a horse over bend in a correctly fitted pessoa. My objection to draw reins though, is that they just are not needed, where as, if you lunge, you have to replace the rider in some way if you are to exercise the right muscles. I would not use a pessoa on a riden horse, any more than I would use draw reins or a de gouge. You have the rider to ensure the horse is working correctly. A skilled rider can make the horse understand the correct way of going better than any gadget (including the pessoa).

ETA: when I lunge with two reins, I don't use any gadgets as they are not needed.
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In a lunging rope the horses mouth is not attached with a pully to its hind legs it is a completly different action to the Pessoa it also has no poll pressure another pet hate of mine in a lunging gadget.
Draw riens are extremly easy and quick to release if you are skilled and they are the quality round type unlike while I agree totally they are over used they can be a valuable help to show a damaged horse a different way with minimum rien aids but like everything with horses it's down to how good you are with them.
I was fortunate to be trained how to use them in a very formal way however although I will happily put them on if I feel the need in truth I dont think they have been out of the tack room in over six months.
 
Occasionally I will use them while lunging and when I worked at trekking yards i always used to put them on the horses if the riders where beginners, it stopped the horses from trying to munch grass. They where very long draw reins though :)
 
Archina said:
Occasionally I will use them while lunging and when I worked at trekking yards i always used to put them on the horses if the riders where beginners, it stopped the horses from trying to munch grass. They where very long draw reins though :)
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Are you sure you dont mean sidereins? A horse snatching the reins out of a novice riders hands to eat grass would be able to do so just as successfully if it were wearing draw reins, as they are held in the riders hands.
 
millitiger said:
Well for these 2 horses, it stopped them 'flicking' their noses skywards :)

They stayed in front of the vertical and it just guided them to not popping out of my hands during the strike off.

As I said, used for one session on each (had these horses at different times) and it helped me break the habit with no fuss or argument and both continued after that to stay true to the contact during the transition.
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I am glad that it has worked successfully for you and it was resolved in one lesson. For myself I always aim to have the horses weight out of the shoulders and them straight and balanced.
 
Auslander said:
Are you sure you dont mean sidereins? A horse snatching the reins out of a novice riders hands to eat grass would be able to do so just as successfully if it were wearing draw reins, as they are held in the riders hands.
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Lol! Your totally right, my brain is just not working today :o

Yea, ive never used draw reins, never seen the point and always thought it looked really severe but i think thats because ive never seen them used correctly. Did learn how to use them when training for my stage 3 though.
 
Mearas said:
I am glad that it has worked successfully for you and it was resolved in one lesson. For myself I always aim to have the horses weight out of the shoulders and them straight and balanced.
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It wasn't a lesson, I was riding them at home :)

I also aim to have them off the forehand and balanced so I don't think you are alone there- I just chose to have a little help in the form of the draw rein to help show the horse what I wanted.

Some people like to use gadgets as and when they feel they are needed, some like to use a simple snaffle and cavesson and some like no bridle or saddle- as long as the horse is not being abused, hurt or put under undue pressure, I see no problem with any of the above :)
 
Yes i have used them for a short period of time.

I like the fact that draw reins used correctly, merely set 'parameters' for a horse, and will only come into play if the horse opts to lift its head above the limits you have set. So to that effect they can be used as a therapeutic tool in a reasonably mild way. I do agree however that in inexperienced or unfair hands, those parameters can be set too low.

I guess it helps if you are experienced in using two reins, to avoid the gradual tightening of the draw rein that others have described.
 
Wagtail said:
you are over horsed and it is for safety.
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I will ignore the intended or unintentional insult in that statement.


But these are the differences as I see them. With draw reins you are just hauling the head in.
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But not that one.

I am not "hauling the head in" when I use them. I am preventing upwards and outwards evasions.


It does nothing for the back end or the back.
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And as long as you are riding with fixed reins as well, and ride properly, it does nothing to harm the back or the back end either.



The head is not tucked in like it is with draw reins.
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The head does not have to be tucked in on draw reins, you write as if there is no alternative way to use them.
 
Mearas said:
But it sometimes takes a lot of time and patience sadly, one thing many people don't have much of.
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Another person who thinks slower and more difficult automatically means "better" in horse training?

I do not agree with that point of view, and draw reins, properly used, can save a horse from a lot of confusion which in my opinion can only be to the benefit of the horse and rider.
 
siennamum said:
cptrayes said:
I will ignore the intended or unintentional insult in that statement.


Well at least you have been insulted in good company, you apparently along with many International SJ, dressage and event riders are all equally scared and overhorsed.
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I've seen some 'corrections' used by pro riders that would make your grandmother weep. In any game, there are the good, the bad and the ugly. Pofessional riders are no different.
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I was asked to ride in them at a riding school on 1 particular horse (I had about 20 years worth of lessons at this point) but that wasn't my choice

When I bought my own horse who was very spooky, high-headed and resistant I used them once out of desperation but decided I didn't like 'forced' feeling they gave me so threw them away.

After 2 years & a lot of schooling and although he is still high-headed and spooky by nature I have found that spurs are a better aid as they keep him listening to my leg and help me control his body rather just keeping his head down.

I understand why people would use them on dangerous horses (rearing/taking off etc) and I am sure in sensitive hands they may be a useful training tool but they're not really for me.
 
cptrayes said:
I will ignore the intended or unintentional insult in that statement.
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Cptrayes, are you saying that nothing can over horse you? Because it can me. That was not meant as an insult. You ride huge warmbloods that sound far more horse than I generally ride. You sometimes need to use draw reins. I do not. IMO needing to use them means you are over horsed otherwise you would not need them. That does not mean you lack ability. Some horses are men's horses.
 
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Wagtail said:
Cptrayes, are you saying that nothing can over horse you? Because it can me. That was not meant as an insult. You ride huge warmbloods that sound far more horse than I generally ride. You sometimes need to use draw reins. I do not. IMO needing to use them means you are over horsed otherwise you would not need them. That does not mean you lack ability. Some horses are men's horses.
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I am saying that it is insulting to use a term which suggests strongly that one can only need to use draw reins if one is overhorsed in a message to be read by someone who has already told you that they used draw reins on their horse.

You did not say "often" or "usually". What you wrote was readable most easily as "anyone who needs draw reins is overhorsed" and I see from your further explanation that I was correct in reading it that way.

The conclusion I have come to is that you just don't understand the proper use of draw reins. I did not need to use them.

I chose to use them as the most effective and humane way of explaining to my horse where his behaviour was unacceptable to me.

You don't see that the way I use them is in any way preferable to your alternatives. I don't see the advantage to the horse or the rider of leaving a horse not understanding/accepting what you reasonably want it to do for as long as it takes for your preferred methods to work.

I note with huge interest that you seem to find it acceptable for a man to get onto a horse and use his brute strength to control it, and not for a woman to take temporary and sensitively used advantage of draw reins. How very , very odd.
 
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cptrayes said:
I am saying that it is insulting to use a term which suggests strongly that one can only need to use draw reins if one is overhorsed in a message to be read by someone who has already told you that they used draw reins on their horse.

You did not say "often" or "usually". What you wrote was readable most easily as "anyone who needs draw reins is overhorsed" and I see from your further explanation that I was correct in reading it that way.

The conclusion I have come to is that you just don't understand the proper use of draw reins. I did not need to use them.

I chose to use them as the most effective and humane way of explaining to my horse where his behaviour was unacceptable to me.

You don't see that the way I use them is in any way preferable to your alternatives. I don't see the advantage to the horse or the rider of leaving a horse not understanding/accepting what you reasonably want it to do for as long as it takes for your preferred methods to work.

I note with huge interest that you seem to find it acceptable for a man to get onto a horse and use his brute strength to control it, and not for a woman to take temporary and sensitively used advantage of draw reins. How very , very odd.
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Odd? It's about core strengh, not wrestling. There are all sizes/strengths of horse and all sizes/strengths of human. You explain your need/choice to use the draw reins on a horse that is using its strength and athletism against you. Draw reins give you the extra 'strength' and control to do this. However, they are not a good substitute for human 'feel'. You appear to think I battle with horses for many sessions to get them to understand. I do not. It can be a matter of only minutes. Just as fast as using any draw reins. That is why I honestly cannot see the need for them. However, if I were to over horse myself, (perhaps with a horse such as the one you describe, who knows?) then obviously I would be unable to do it that way. We all have different methods. This thread is asking for our opinions on draw reins. We don't have to all agree.
 
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