Dunne v Frost

Rowreach said:
I'm assuming nothing, unlike you assuming I know nothing. I am quite a bit older than Elf and am a long time out of any real involvement in NH racing but I do know what it was like for women jockeys back then.
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You made a statement that Nina Carberry and other lady riders 'took it on the chin'. It is an unquantified statement and therefore assumption, unless of course, you personally know the lady riders and can speak for them and they are happy for you to publicise their experiences within their working environment. Making assumptions in any sphere has pitfalls and needs serious thought before being done.
 
minesadouble said:
Well I can't agree with the majority on this one.
She looks like a bloody good actress to me and her interviews are way too 'twee' and over enthusiastic for my liking.
I'm sure I saw last week that Richard Johnson will be making a statement as part of Dunne's defence. I have the utmost respect for Johnson who is a consummate professional and his opinion will count for a lot for me.
I've nothing against female jockeys per se but feel Frost could learn a lot from the likes of Nina Carberry and others who went before her.
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So just because you don't like her means that Dunne threatening to put her through a wing is okay?
 
AdorableAlice said:
You made a statement that Nina Carberry and other lady riders 'took it on the chin'. It is an unquantified statement and therefore assumption, unless of course, you personally know the lady riders and can speak for them and they are happy for you to publicise their experiences within their working environment. Making assumptions in any sphere has pitfalls and needs serious thought before being done.
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I am almost as gobsmacked by this post from you as I have been in the past by some of the incredible and insensitive assumptions you have made on this forum in the past.
 
Looking from a distance, this whole investigation is very odd. In that, a female suffers bullying at work in a particular industry. Normally, we all agree that it should not be tolerated and the perpetrators be punished. But some with deeper knowledge are not sympathetic. Does she provoke people? What causes folks to have so little sympathy? His (Dunne) behaviour is appalling and we can all read it and then he also admits it. Should be case closed. But no, it is still not resonating within the industry that Bryony has been wronged. Whatever the further info is that I cannot see, it seems to mysteriously place the blame back on her too. Will it surface or, will she have been bullied but still be presented as part of the problem. The conspiracy theorist in me wonders, who had someone's ear and why.....
 
Rowreach said:
I am almost as gobsmacked by this post from you as I have been in the past by some of the incredible and insensitive assumptions you have made on this forum in the past.
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Having a dull evening here, so re read the thread on page 4. I kind of picked it up that you were saying previous female jockeys may not have spoken up.....for whatever reason..... not fully understanding the feedback you have gotten.
 
minesadouble said:
In exceptional circumstances in the heat of the moment human beings say unacceptable things which they would never say in a calm and logical state of mind.
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See, if I were to have had a bad day, and then came on here and said that I'm going to shank [insert HHO forum goer] the minute they come to my end of the country, somehow I don't think there'd be many people coming to my defence.
 
Mrs Jingle said:
Let's face it folks, the bottom line is no matter what bullying and threats were made to her it is her own fault as she obvously 'asked for it' and nobody she works with likes her anyway. So that's it - case closed, nothing to see here, back to work lads. ?
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Exactly, it is so odd. I cannot work it out at all.
 
The BBC article reporting on the ongoing evidence certainly throws some of Frosts account in a different light (see extract below) It also seems that there was sufficient awkwardness between Dunne and Frost to warrant Frosts father trying to arrange a meeting to clear the air to which Dunne agreed but Frost declined.
Individuals perceptions can vary and whilst Frost may feel that she is being picked on it is possible that she is just over sensitive.
Please also note the jockeys are not work colleagues they are sportsmen/women who are competing against each other, sledging / banter is likely to be the norm.

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Fred66 said:
The BBC article reporting on the ongoing evidence certainly throws some of Frosts account in a different light (see extract below) It also seems that there was sufficient awkwardness between Dunne and Frost to warrant Frosts father trying to arrange a meeting to clear the air to which Dunne agreed but Frost declined.
Individuals perceptions can vary and whilst Frost may feel that she is being picked on it is possible that she is just over sensitive.
Please also note the jockeys are not work colleagues they are sportsmen/women who are competing against each other, sledging / banter is likely to be the norm.

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Defence on the grounds of ‘well he was always nice to me,” isn’t much of a defence. One you see time and time again though. His good behaviour towards her doesn’t mean he didn’t behave badly towards Frost.
 
Fred66 said:
Please also note the jockeys are not work colleagues they are sportsmen/women who are competing against each other, sledging / banter is likely to be the norm.
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Ah yes, did everyone forget that moment in this year’s Olympics where one of the divers threatened to drown the diver that got gold? It was the day after one of the showjumpers went around flashing his female competitors. And in the meantime, Valegro was on Horsebook posting about how TSF Dalera had about as much talent as a three legged donkey...
 
Fred66 said:
Please also note the jockeys are not work colleagues they are sportsmen/women who are competing against each other, sledging / banter is likely to be the norm.
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"Banter", now where have we heard that term recently? Oh yes, just before 16 senior members of management of Yorkshire Cricket Club were forced to resign over failing to listen to players who were sick of the "banter".
.
 
NinjaPony said:
Defence on the grounds of ‘well he was always nice to me,” isn’t much of a defence. One you see time and time again though. His good behaviour towards her doesn’t mean he didn’t behave badly towards Frost.
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Firstly, calling someone some of the names reported (I won't repeat them here because of the HHO swearing rules) is not banter in any way, shape or form. Nor is threatening to ride someone into the wings to injure them.

And the 'Well he never raped me' or 'If only we had agreed afterwards it was consensual, it would be fine'.

Frost can't win - if she stands up to Dunne despite being upset, the men opine that she should have 'hid away'. If she doesn't agree to meet her abuser, then she is being 'oversensitive'.

Women have the right not to be abused, threatened, not to have penises waved at them, and can decide themselves if they are upset or not.
 
NinjaPony said:
Defence on the grounds of ‘well he was always nice to me,” isn’t much of a defence. One you see time and time again though. His good behaviour towards her doesn’t mean he didn’t behave badly towards Frost.
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This was not what I was inferring.

The point is that Frost stated that other women jockeys would not back her because they wanted to protect their own backs. This report contras that albeit I’m sure some will say it corroborates it.
Additionally Frosts father asked one of the senior stewards to arrange a meeting to sort it out between them but Frost withdrew at the last minute.
Which indicates that the issue was not one sided that there was ongoing animosity on both sides. Surely if her father thought that it was one sided bullying he would have reported it ?
As I said earlier if there was ongoing bullying then he should face the consequences but disagreements and heated words do not constitute bullying. Reading some of the reports he received threats and intimidation as well.
Please do not assume that women are automatically the weaker sex.
 
NinjaPony said:
Would love to know how you drew that conclusion from what I’ve posted?
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The final comment was not specifically aimed at your comment more at a number of other posts within this thread.

Whilst the evidence heard so far shows he has not behaved well I am not yet convinced that the evidence shows him guilty of bullying.

If nothing else comes from this case hopefully it highlights that the culture needs to change.
 
Fred66 said:
The final comment was not specifically aimed at your comment more at a number of other posts within this thread.

Whilst the evidence heard so far shows he has not behaved well I am not yet convinced that the evidence shows him guilty of bullying.

If nothing else comes from this case hopefully it highlights that the culture needs to change.
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The definition of bullying is if the victim feels bullied. It’s not up to you to decide.
 
bonny said:
The definition of bullying is if the victim feels bullied. It’s not up to you to decide.
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I‘m not deciding, thats what the hearing is about.

However the if definition of it follows other similar definitions then it’s likely to be what any reasonable person would think. Otherwise it’s impossible to try and avoid bullying unless you avoid any interaction at all, as we are all individuals and all feel and react differently.
 
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