Dressage EG and Glocks ToTo Jr score over 86% in the KUR

[ester]

i guess i would not see a 9yo GP as the finished article and therefore some of this is not unexpected?

Oh yes, that was what I thought too should have added an extra sentence. It was interesting to watch the difference between him nailing it and having a wobble it felt just like my leg placement in my reverse press lunges this morning.. . Not finished article either

 

[milliepops]

There are dozens and dozens of horses with active hindlegs but more in front though (freestyle is the freshest in my mind having just watched her but there are zillions. Utopia is another, very correct in many ways but had great freedom in the front legs.)

 

[milliepops]

Oh yes, that was what I thought too should have added an extra sentence. It was interesting to watch the difference between him nailing it and having a wobble it felt just like my leg placement in my reverse press lunges this morning.. . Not finished article either

?
Yup I think you can almost predict where he's going to double beat, at the start when he's unsettled, at times in the zigzag where its extra difficult. The centre line is probably a badly calculated risk. In between he did some very regular passage.

 

[shortstuff99]

How timely that this seems to have come out today ?https://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2020/09/carl-hester-working-with-young-horses/

 

[splashgirl45]

i couldnt watch the whole test as i have never liked the way his horses go. yes he rides hot horses and gets the results but does his method of training produce a hot horse? who knows, i dont actulaly like the way cdj and freestyle now perform all front and back not matching. i do like the grey mare she rides i find that much more pleasing to watch.. all the horses EG rides look unhappy to me, only my humble opinion but i like a dressage horse to look less flashy and more correct. in the half of the test i saw there were quite a few errors/missteps . i never liked totilas anyway and couldnt understand why so many people sung his praises. in would be a boring world if we all liked the same , i loved valegro's extended trot, equal push from hind and front, what it should be IMO...

 

[tristar]

lovely horse, never could stand watching gal ride

 

[tristar]

we photo ours direct coming towards the camera and same behind going away to verify straightness, lack of lateral walk

its amazing how many dressage horse are not straight as carl points out, the wrong bend at certain points, can`t understand why this is not corrected early on

 

[milliepops]

whole CMH video has turned up

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=327388271824104

Nice to see the bits before and after the test. I still think this will be an exciting horse to watch, he's at the start of his GP career now. i think he has better mechanics than Totilas behind and I think there's every chance that the messy bits will be tidied up and developed.

 

[Mule]

That horse is incredibly athletic. I like him.

 

[Palindrome]

I really like the horse. The rider is very good too, a little strong in my opinion but so is Charlotte. I think it's a way to avoid the horse making mistakes or being inaccurate, professional competition riders tend to be strong and well balanced.

 

[nikkimariet]

EG amazing rider. So quiet and precise.

Would have liked to have seen the horse debut with another 6-12 months training under its belt. To me he just doesn’t look strong enough.

 

[tristar]

he looks to be struggling, the zig zag is a mess at the end, a tremendous strain on the hocks, not sure if the horse is really straight enough in the body, i feel really uncomfortable watching it.

edward reminds me more of a showjumper than a dressage rider

 

[tristar]

The last line up the centre is horrible, though?

i am more comfortable watching you ride

 

[oldie48]

I watched the test last night and there's something about the hind leg action I don't like. I can't put my finger on it but almost a slight lack of fluidity. I'll probably see him do another test and won't notice anything and I'm a rank amateur in these matters so "know nothing". I think EG rides beautifully and if he looks a little strong in his riding I think it's because he's taking a horse who is inexperienced at this level and "holding his hand" so to speak. I think it takes huge skill to ride a horse like this, I doubt most of us wouldn't even get him to go in the arena let alone perform GP movements. One to watch definitely but still prefer Freestyle.

 

[tristar]

but surely one of the acid tests of `training` should be rideability

tension, inexperience, something missing somewhere in the training, failure to address something at the lower levels, pressing on before the horse has `ripened` so one can pick the fruit like a` ripe plum`

 

[oldie48]

Part of training a horse is helping him to cope with the atmosphere of a big show AND do all the movements etc Not much point in having a horse who is mega at home but blows his mind in a big environment. The judges seem to have thought he did a good job though so I'm sure they went home very happy. Wonder how much it costs to use him as a stallion, probably went up a few Euros!

 

[tristar]

by the time it gets gp should the atmosphere still be affecting the horse, or is the rider`s tension under pressure part of it the problem

 

[shortstuff99]

EG amazing rider. So quiet and precise.

Would have liked to have seen the horse debut with another 6-12 months training under its belt. To me he just doesn’t look strong enough.

Yes me too, I'm slightly confounded by some comments saying all the mistakes are because he is young and weak. But if GP is the pinnacle then shouldn't they be waiting until the horse is strong enough for the work? You can still go out at small tour if you need the exposure.

 

[Roxylola]

I've been contemplating this over a few days.
First, we can only judge what we see so.sny concerns about Gal's training methods have to be squashed as they arent relevant.
So, the test itself. Firstly EG rides a lovely fluent test, hes as mentioned accurate has an amazing seat and all the rest. He helps his young horse out very nicely as they go along. For a juvenile GP test, I can accept the missteps, the loss of rhythm here and there etc, we arent seeing the finished article, and hopefully the horse will strengthen and those will be a thing of the past. The excessive flashy front isnt my thing, but again maybe with strength the back end will even out and catch up
My huge, massive issue, is this has been judged at over 86%! That's not a test with some 4s for loss of rhythm and missteps, but mostly 7s. That's a mostly 8s with more than a couple of 9s in there. I'm not a judge, and I couldn't ride one side of the horse I'm sure let alone get round a GP test, and yes there are good things in the test but really? 8s and 9s? I can accept the off bits as being babyish as opposed to unsoundness and a result of EG's training (could be either, time will tell) but there were faults which should be marked accordingly but I cant see how that's reflected in the scores in this instance

 

[oldie48]

Yes me too, I'm slightly confounded by some comments saying all the mistakes are because he is young and weak. But if GP is the pinnacle then shouldn't they be waiting until the horse is strong enough for the work? You can still go out at small tour if you need the exposure.

Yes but why would you if the main source of income comes from stud fees and he is capable of winning a GP? Just being pragmatic and probably rather cynical here and not saying what is right or wrong but the horse has been bred to make money and the sooner he is out strutting his stuff at the highest level, the sooner the cash comes rolling in. Having said that I see much more worrying things at local shows eg horses being ridden very badly, whilst lame, poorly shod and in badly fitting tack and this concerns me much more than seeing this horse making a few green mistakes at GP.

 

[Xmasha]

Beautiful horse for sure. But i didnt enjoy watching that test. It just seemed overly manufactured. Id love to see the horse in a field and watch how he moves naturally.

 

[milliepops]

I've been contemplating this over a few days.
First, we can only judge what we see so.sny concerns about Gal's training methods have to be squashed as they arent relevant.
So, the test itself. Firstly EG rides a lovely fluent test, hes as mentioned accurate has an amazing seat and all the rest. He helps his young horse out very nicely as they go along. For a juvenile GP test, I can accept the missteps, the loss of rhythm here and there etc, we arent seeing the finished article, and hopefully the horse will strengthen and those will be a thing of the past. The excessive flashy front isnt my thing, but again maybe with strength the back end will even out and catch up
My huge, massive issue, is this has been judged at over 86%! That's not a test with some 4s for loss of rhythm and missteps, but mostly 7s. That's a mostly 8s with more than a couple of 9s in there. I'm not a judge, and I couldn't ride one side of the horse I'm sure let alone get round a GP test, and yes there are good things in the test but really? 8s and 9s? I can accept the off bits as being babyish as opposed to unsoundness and a result of EG's training (could be either, time will tell) but there were faults which should be marked accordingly but I cant see how that's reflected in the scores in this instance

so, also not a judge and i think without access to the individual score sheets it's pretty hard to say whether it's right or wrong.
But I'm just thinking about what people have objected to in the test vs what's on the score sheet to actually be scored for a freestyle. it's so different to a straight test.
(sheet available here https://inside.fei.org/system/files/GP_Freestyle09_update 2017_0.pdf)

they didn't score so highly in the straight test , but 80% is still merely "good" . some of the work was very good, some will have been less good, it's averaged at good, such is the sport of dressage. the penalty from mistakes can get eaten up in the other marks, we see it all the time on here with people saying "the WB stood on its back legs in one movement so how could it have beaten me when my horse behaved itself", but, for instance, it might have nailed all the coefficient marks and done everything 0.5 marks better and so the overall score had only a tiny impact from the disobedience.

I'm in disagreement with the idea that a horse that can get round a GP test has to be the finished article. Many top riders had said that being able to get round the GP test is just the beginning. And I'm not convinced that there's a *practical* logic to a pro from a big stable to hold back a stallion that can win a national title even if it's rather green. for the reasons oldie has outlined.

 

[ycbm]

My huge, massive issue, is this has been judged at over 86%! That's not a test with some 4s for loss of rhythm and missteps, but mostly 7s. That's a mostly 8s with more than a couple of 9s in there. I'm not a judge, and I couldn't ride one side of the horse I'm sure let alone get round a GP test, and yes there are good things in the test but really? 8s and 9s? I can accept the off bits as being babyish as opposed to unsoundness and a result of EG's training (could be either, time will tell) but there were faults which should be marked accordingly but I cant see how that's reflected in the scores in this instance

With you totally on that. How does that average out at 8.6?
.

 

[shortstuff99]

so, also not a judge and i think without access to the individual score sheets it's pretty hard to say whether it's right or wrong.
But I'm just thinking about what people have objected to in the test vs what's on the score sheet to actually be scored for a freestyle. it's so different to a straight test.
(sheet available here https://inside.fei.org/system/files/GP_Freestyle09_update 2017_0.pdf)

they didn't score so highly in the straight test , but 80% is still merely "good" . some of the work was very good, some will have been less good, it's averaged at good, such is the sport of dressage. the penalty from mistakes can get eaten up in the other marks, we see it all the time on here with people saying "the WB stood on its back legs in one movement so how could it have beaten me when my horse behaved itself", but, for instance, it might have nailed all the coefficient marks and done everything 0.5 marks better and so the overall score had only a tiny impact from the disobedience.

I'm in disagreement with the idea that a horse that can get round a GP test has to be the finished article. Many top riders had said that being able to get round the GP test is just the beginning. And I'm not convinced that there's a *practical* logic to a pro from a big stable to hold back a stallion that can win a national title even if it's rather green. for the reasons oldie has outlined.

I don't think they have to be a finished article but I do think they should have the strength, if you get me? If they are physically struggling to perform a move that doesn't seem quite right to me, but if they can but go a bit green or tense etc then that is different.

 

[milliepops]

re the score i'd refer back to the score sheet again to see how they stack up.
only 50% of the marks are for technical scores of the movements. Of which, I'd say there were lots that would pull a good score so starting from a reasonably solid place.
a whopping 40 marks are just for the music! which fitted the horse pretty well iMO
40 marks for choreography, same for degree of difficulty (I'd be really interested if anyone can find out what these marks were). and so on.

 

[milliepops]

I don't think they have to be a finished article but I do think they should have the strength, if you get me? If they are physically struggling to perform a move that doesn't seem quite right to me, but if they can but go a bit green or tense etc then that is different.

i guess it depends on whether you see a horse that is fundamentally too weak or one that becomes weak when there are outside factors. possibly only the rider knows for sure and I'm a bit of a glass half full person when it comes to judging (it's a depressing enough sport when you're on the receiving end)
I guess I would doubt they would bring the horse to the champs if it couldn't get a clear round at home. be a bit of an own goal for it to be so weak that it gets a crap score

 

[Roxylola]

The score sheet is interesting. I understand about the odd mistake in an overall good test. I still dont think I'm convinced it's an 86% GP test. Much as I agree theres nothing wrong with getting a young horse out at the level and not expecting perfection I'm not convinced that particular test was good enough to merit that mark personally. I'm not saying it should have been battered but at that level, good imo should be better than that

 

[ycbm]

re the score i'd refer back to the score sheet again to see how they stack up.
only 50% of the marks are for technical scores of the movements. Of which, I'd say there were lots that would pull a good score so starting from a reasonably solid place.
a whopping 40 marks are just for the music! which fitted the horse pretty well iMO
40 marks for choreography, same for degree of difficulty (I'd be really interested if anyone can find out what these marks were). and so on.

Ah, I didn't know that MP, thanks. It's a definite show class, then.

 

[milliepops]

Ah, I didn't know that MP, thanks. It's a definite show class, then.

yeah, link is in one of my earlier posts to the FEI score sheets. the collectives are totally different and so influential. therefore you aren't looking at an 86% GP test. you're looking at an 86% freestyle which has a hugely different composition of marks.
Again.... i'm not blind to the issues. i just think it's important to know how things can be arrived at that might be unexpected, before simply deciding the judges are all crap

eta. and I think there's something of the showman about Gal which is one of the reasons why he rides a good freestyle.

 

[daffy44]

But the horse also got 80% in the Special, so the judges were loving a lot of what he was doing irrespective of the music.