Dressage EG and Glocks ToTo Jr score over 86% in the KUR

[oldie48]

H&H article incl canter pics http://www.centaurbiomechanics.co.uk/centaurbiomechanics-co-uk/_img/Horse and Hound Canter Article.pdf

Really interesting, thanks for posting!

 

[sbloom]

Diagonal Advanced Placement, so in trot DAP + is where the hindleg of the diagonal pair hits the ground before the corresponding foreleg. this tends to make horses appear uphill (or be a consequence of it depending on your viewpoint).
DAP- is where the foreleg hits the ground first = horse appears on the forehand.

many many many dressage horses show DAP+

I don't know anything about this blog but it has some ideal photos to demonstrate

https://www.behindthebitblog.com/2008/06/diagonal-advanced-placement-in-equine.html

And this must be considered in light of the fundamental requirement, and I believe, collective marks, for purity of gaits (though I'm sure that's covered in the link, posting a hurried context )

 

[milliepops]

And this must be considered in light of the fundamental requirement, and I believe, collective marks, for purity of gaits (though I'm sure that's covered in the link, posting a hurried context )

yeahhhhhhhhh.... well, different strokes for different folks, so far as purity of gaits is concerned - H&H article I posted contains some thoughts on that. the big-C Classical folks would argue for that, comp riders and judges less concerned by it provided that the eye sees a 2 or 3 beat pace as appropriate.

 

[oldie48]

yeahhhhhhhhh.... well, different strokes for different folks, so far as purity of gaits is concerned - H&H article I posted contains some thoughts on that. the big-C Classical folks would argue for that, comp riders and judges less concerned by it provided that the eye sees a 2 or 3 beat pace as appropriate.

Judges can only mark what they see, so if you need a slo mo camera to see DAB+ or - (and it appears that you do) you'd need to completely change the method of judging. Just out of interest and because I am being so lazy ATM I looked out EG and Totilas Kur when T was 9. tbh I had a lump in my throat, I'd forgotten how magical he was when with Gal, just remembered him with Rath when he often looked less than happy. Anyway here's the link just in case anyone else wants a trip down memory lane.

 

[milliepops]

it was very exciting at the time. I remember they kept saying we won't see another horse this good in our lifetimes. then came Valegro! hehe

 

[splashgirl45]

i must be very odd as although the canter work was lovely i couldnt get past the odd trot, when valegro came along and got such good scores i heaved a sigh of relief because i loved his way of going and i therefore wasnt completely stupid regarding dressage

 

[milliepops]

well it turned out they would come out fairly thick and fast then, not long after there were lots of really exciting horses. I used to enjoy watching Helen Langehanenburg with Damon Hill, similar kind of time.

 

[shortstuff99]

I have been thinking on the DAP + thing and if it is being bred into the horses is it making it into a sort of gaited breed? In that they are designed to be able to work in that sort of way and so will stay sound. While if you take a DAP neutral horse and force the DAP + inadvertently by over producing the up in front, then they will go lame. I don't know just random thoughts!

 

[ycbm]

Are they staying sound? I may be wrong but my impression is that it's unusual to see an International GP horse still competing over the age of 14. Totilas was clearly lame behind in his last competition.
.

 

[oldie48]

i must be very odd as although the canter work was lovely i couldnt get past the odd trot, when valegro came along and got such good scores i heaved a sigh of relief because i loved his way of going and i therefore wasnt completely stupid regarding dressage

Don't disagree regarding the trot, I much prefer less extravagant movement at the front but I still found him amazing, he looked as if he really enjoyed his work with EG and the music really suited him.

 

[shortstuff99]

Are they staying sound? I may be wrong but my impression is that it's unusual to see an International GP horse still competing over the age of 14. Totilas was clearly lame behind in his last competition.
.

I don't know this is what I was wondering whether a 'natural' DAP + horse stayed sounder longer then an 'unnatural ' DAP + horse. In the way that if I teach an ungainted horse a gait does that make them lame while a naturally gaited horses wouldn't be?

 

[splashgirl45]

i would think that as long as your less naturally gaited horse is trained slowly and properly and not put under too much pressure by competing and schooling hard, he should be fine..i wonder whether the naturally extravagant movers are pushed a little too far , i find EG's horses look like they are at the extreme of their talent and it makes uncomfortable viewing for me, i know i am in the minority but i like a soft supple movement with the horse looking comfortable and the modern fashion for extravagance is not for me. i am a bit old fashioned i am afraid

 

[tristar]

Judges can only mark what they see, so if you need a slo mo camera to see DAB+ or - (and it appears that you do) you'd need to completely change the method of judging. Just out of interest and because I am being so lazy ATM I looked out EG and Totilas Kur when T was 9. tbh I had a lump in my throat, I'd forgotten how magical he was when with Gal, just remembered him with Rath when he often looked less than happy. Anyway here's the link just in case anyone else wants a trip down memory lane.

how could anyone f that up, with a horse that could do it like that, not that he`s my favourite, just he is so, so genuine

 

[tristar]

I've had a look at the 1989 vid and although it was poor quality it was still easy to see a very impressive hind toe drag, there was very little, if any, lift in the passage and piaffe. Not sure I saw much evidence of the spidery front legs probably because I was so focused on the hinds! I have looked at the pas de trois and there's a fair bit of hind toe dragging there too from all three horses, towards the end they are all doing it in unison!
I also looked at the bit of the GP with Toto that MP posted and preferred it to the Kur too.

we all see something, they were of course the best in their day in competition and things have changed greatly,

if you have time take a look at Marzog and anna grethe jenson world cup 1986, how do you see him and what about the rider?

 

[tristar]

i would think that as long as your less naturally gaited horse is trained slowly and properly and not put under too much pressure by competing and schooling hard, he should be fine..i wonder whether the naturally extravagant movers are pushed a little too far , i find EG's horses look like they are at the extreme of their talent and it makes uncomfortable viewing for me, i know i am in the minority but i like a soft supple movement with the horse looking comfortable and the modern fashion for extravagance is not for me. i am a bit old fashioned i am afraid

i feel like that, too close to the edge

 

[AmyMay]

Judges can only mark what they see, so if you need a slo mo camera to see DAB+ or - (and it appears that you do) you'd need to completely change the method of judging. Just out of interest and because I am being so lazy ATM I looked out EG and Totilas Kur when T was 9. tbh I had a lump in my throat, I'd forgotten how magical he was when with Gal, just remembered him with Rath when he often looked less than happy. Anyway here's the link just in case anyone else wants a trip down memory lane.

Just so beautiful. It makes his story even more heartbreaking ?

 

[sbloom]

I think breeding and training goes together, as does judging It becomes difficult to unpick what changed first, but I do think the modern horses are more prone to DAP, I'm not sure we're heading down the right route, for the good of the horse (directly or indirectly through being role models at the top), and training and judging are all part and parcel.

 

[tristar]

looking at the eighties horses, at some point in time specialized dressage horse breeding took off, and as such the product had to be marketed through exposure, winning, and many new people came on the scene and ways of doing things, ie roll kur competition dressage created a market place in which the horses have to conform to the judging and the training has to comply with what the judges are wanting to see.

 

[palo1]

Really interesting discussion. I know that EG is a very skilled and careful rider and that Toto Jr will have had excellent care, excellent training and riding and that he probably finds this work much easier than many horses which is a good thing. I have thought so much about this (and still don't know much) but I can't get out of my mind the very different sort of horse that dressage was developed alongside. The spanish horses/those of the SRS are so much smaller, with an entirely different body form than these 'new' spidery warmbloods. I have to say that in spite of looking quite extraordinary so understandably capturing attention I find the long legged elegant warmbloods far less appealing than the more baroque horses where the movements look far more suited to their physique.

I very much admire some of the tests that I have seen and the horses are quite breathtaking but I wince when I look at the leg length/joints/mobility etc as many of these horses are really on the edge of the physically possible (at least from a longevity point of view) for this sort of work. For me, that is why it feels less inspiring than some of the more 'traditional' or classical type horses. Also, I suspect that the purpose bred warmbloods will get ever more extreme and may end up as a bit of a fad/footnote in the longer history of dressage.

 

[shortstuff99]

This is one of my favourite up and coming GP horses, a Lusitano Stallion.

 

[palo1]

Yes, that is lovely and although he obviously made some mistakes, the horse looks naturally able to do the movements. For me Fuego XII exemplified the joy and expression that is possible for a horse to show in a test though he wasn't technically as 'good' as some of the modern type horses (including Toto Jr). I know however that I would far rather watch Fuego XII than Toto Jr but I don't know a lot and have a very romanticised notion of what dressage is/should be!!

 

[palo1]

I have just watched EG and Toto Jr's test again with a genuine interest in watching the good stuff (and hoping to learn something). Sadly I just can't see much I like that isn't there in other horses that look sounder/better made. For me, it just seems like the Emperors New Clothes and I would be disappointed if any of my horses had a rear end like Toto Jr He looks just so 'weak' and plain oddly made but obviously the camera/film angles limit how much I can see. I know that I know very little and that it is easy to criticise but I am being honest and truly interested to know why this horse is such a story already (is it just his famous father?). I feel sad that I can't see the virtue in this horse's movement as dressage does interest me. Ho hum.

 

[oldie48]

we all see something, they were of course the best in their day in competition and things have changed greatly,

if you have time take a look at Marzog and anna grethe jenson world cup 1986, how do you see him and what about the rider?

So interesting, again toe drag in the passage and no lift in the piaffe, which is a requirement. A lovely relaxed test but by today's standard lacking cadence/expression, almost too relaxed we are used to seeing some "positive" tension. I am not a judge also not that knowledgeable but my guess is that these days the test would be seen as somewhat lacklustre. She's a nice rider but we are used to seeing the best riders use more subtle aids, eg the tempis had a lot of body swing which is viewed somewhat negatively. Not that I know anything and can't ride at a good standard either, just giving my pennyworth to keep an interesting thread going.

 

[tristar]

i think she was offered a million at one point for marzog, but declined

i like her posture on the horse.


corlandus was bred from lines that were producing mainly show jumpers, my old video tape of him is very good quality, shows him off, and they both look so happy.

 

[tristar]

Yes, that is lovely and although he obviously made some mistakes, the horse looks naturally able to do the movements. For me Fuego XII exemplified the joy and expression that is possible for a horse to show in a test though he wasn't technically as 'good' as some of the modern type horses (including Toto Jr). I know however that I would far rather watch Fuego XII than Toto Jr but I don't know a lot and have a very romanticised notion of what dressage is/should be!!

i always thought how interesting it would be to see juan, fuego`s rider, ride totilas, and if he would have allowed totilas more freedom to express himself.

i think totilas breeds well i have seen some nice youngsters by him, in the sense that he throws himself.

oh god , give me a bit of romance every time

 

[tristar]

This is one of my favourite up and coming GP horses, a Lusitano Stallion.

he shows a lot of lift through the withers, carries his front end, especially in trot

 

[shortstuff99]

he shows a lot of lift through the withers, carries his front end, especially in trot

He is trained by Carl Hester too, and I would like to take this horse home!

 

[milliepops]

i always thought how interesting it would be to see juan, fuego`s rider, ride totilas, and if he would have allowed totilas more freedom to express himself.

I kind of think that part of the reason Totilas seemed to go so wrong with Rath was because the horse was suddenly ridden in a totally different way and appeared to fall apart. So I see what you're saying but I'm not sure that practically it would have worked, at the point that Totilas was a "made" horse.

 

[tristar]

I kind of think that part of the reason Totilas seemed to go so wrong with Rath was because the horse was suddenly ridden in a totally different way and appeared to fall apart. So I see what you're saying but I'm not sure that practically it would have worked, at the point that Totilas was a "made" horse.

is it beyoind the realms of a top competition rider to get on a horse and say` who are you?` to ride different horses, like a hot trak who moves in a different way to a hot pre according to the horse?

rath rides in a germanic dominating way, totilas knew what he was doing and as a hot blood in breeding and personality at the top of his game, not surprising he took exception but then he was going wrong at he time as well.

corlandus was ridden by a small lady, he was a big horse, she allowed him expression of his personality, treated him as a creature with feelings and quirks he had a right to have as a living being, anna rode marzog in a way that matched him.

i think if you can ride a spanish horse well, with all their arrogance and presence, without stifling it, then why not transfer that to another hot stallion, i would imagine juan would have suited toto the first, he would have been smoother to sit to.

and what do we think of nicole uphoff and rembrandt, the next sort of stage in dressage evo?

 

[tristar]

He is trained by Carl Hester too, and I would like to take this horse home!

they will know where to look if he goes missing

perhaps you will have one some day, if the intention is there?