Pippity
Well-Known Member
Wow, I had no idea the marking was so different! Thanks for explaining that.
Dressage EG and Glocks ToTo Jr score over 86% in the KUR
- Thread starter shortstuff99
- Start date
Wow, I had no idea the marking was so different! Thanks for explaining that.
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
I guess time will tell for that. I think when you have a very nice horse like him you can 'get away' with more errors then the average horse which is possibly why we see it more. When I take mine out I have to make sure everything is spot on as I don't ever seem to get away with anything ?.i guess it depends on whether you see a horse that is fundamentally too weak or one that becomes weak when there are outside factors. possibly only the rider knows for sure and I'm a bit of a glass half full person when it comes to judging (it's a depressing enough sport when you're on the receiving end)
I guess I would doubt they would bring the horse to the champs if it couldn't get a clear round at home. be a bit of an own goal for it to be so weak that it gets a crap score
daffy44
Well-Known Member
If the horse has been lightly competed, then yes, absolutely the atmosphere can still affect the horse even at GP.
daffy44
Well-Known Member
But often what you can see as a lack of strength as in reality the horse getting worried or anxious and that affects the movement and makes it look weak, when if you had seen the horse doing the same work at home it would have looked very strong and comfortable.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
yeah can anyone find the whole vid of the straight test? this clip looks rather different to the freestyle, much more in the comfort zone.
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=377204590084465&extid=OL3fYOOs0tKvLgbm
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=377204590084465&extid=OL3fYOOs0tKvLgbm
daffy44
Well-Known Member
I will be honest and say that whilst I like the horse, I did not like the test. I do think it must have felt very emotional for EG to be riding to the same music that he used for Totilas, and now the son winning with the same music must have felt amazing.
I think its a little unrealistic to expect horses to be absolutely used to everything just because they are at GP, by definition a GP horse is sensitive, and whilst it may be happy coping with external influences at Small Tour, because the GP is a big step up, they become affected by them again. GP really is just the start of a new journey, and its fine to compete a green GP and not to expect it to be a finished article in the competition arena, no matter how confident they feel at home.
I do think the test was over marked, the green issues were apparently ignored, the tension in the jaw, the loose snaffle rein with the tight curb, the irregular steps etc, if A.N.Other had ridden a green GP which showed those issues the judges would have jumped on them, not given them 8s.
I think its a little unrealistic to expect horses to be absolutely used to everything just because they are at GP, by definition a GP horse is sensitive, and whilst it may be happy coping with external influences at Small Tour, because the GP is a big step up, they become affected by them again. GP really is just the start of a new journey, and its fine to compete a green GP and not to expect it to be a finished article in the competition arena, no matter how confident they feel at home.
I do think the test was over marked, the green issues were apparently ignored, the tension in the jaw, the loose snaffle rein with the tight curb, the irregular steps etc, if A.N.Other had ridden a green GP which showed those issues the judges would have jumped on them, not given them 8s.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
i have found the score sheets which is interesting. i can't work out how to link them yet but if you dig around the show website you can find them.
basically in the freestyle, the half passes were highlights (I'm not surprised) pulling lots of 9s. passage split the judges, piaffe lots of 9s (both of those are x 2) pi-pa transitions again some 9s
and the collectives all minimum 8.5 with music and choreography picking up some 9.5s.
https://www.nk-dressuur.nl/startlijsten-uitslagen/
when you get the results for the class (some vague interpretation of dutch is needed) then clicking on the rider brings the score sheet up.
basically in the freestyle, the half passes were highlights (I'm not surprised) pulling lots of 9s. passage split the judges, piaffe lots of 9s (both of those are x 2) pi-pa transitions again some 9s
and the collectives all minimum 8.5 with music and choreography picking up some 9.5s.
https://www.nk-dressuur.nl/startlijsten-uitslagen/
when you get the results for the class (some vague interpretation of dutch is needed
) then clicking on the rider brings the score sheet up.
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
Why is the piaffe a 9! Ah that's totally my bug bear ??
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
after being told off in the last thread about this I'm keeping shtum at this point and going back to looking for studies about eating unsoaked sugar beet
i really only join in because it's interesting having a debate instead of a one sided thing
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
I could forgive the high scores for everything else but a bad piaffe is the hill I will die on ?.after being told off in the last thread about this I'm keeping shtum at this point and going back to looking for studies about eating unsoaked sugar beet
IrishMilo
Well-Known Member
How dressage has changed...
TheMule
Well-Known Member
I am horrified that piaffe scored 9s
I can admire a lot of things in the horse, but a swinging, double beating, unbalanced piaffe getting 9s ?
I can admire a lot of things in the horse, but a swinging, double beating, unbalanced piaffe getting 9s ?
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
i don't have time to watch 38 mins now but I remember watching quite a lot of the old olympic vids and seeing a lot of really quite hollow and stiff horses, it sure is a different sport
(I just skipped through a bit and happened to catch an irregular passage )
Like I say. I'm not a judge and I don't generally get on board with judge bashing, the sport depends on them and they are generally trying to do the right thing for almost no pay. so I would put the scoring aside because to my knowledge none of us are judging at that level so can't directly explain the rationale. but I think the criticism of imperfect performance in the arena is a bit nuts, it's a task that's almost impossible.
(I just skipped through a bit and happened to catch an irregular passage
)Like I say. I'm not a judge and I don't generally get on board with judge bashing, the sport depends on them and they are generally trying to do the right thing for almost no pay. so I would put the scoring aside because to my knowledge none of us are judging at that level so can't directly explain the rationale. but I think the criticism of imperfect performance in the arena is a bit nuts, it's a task that's almost impossible.
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
It is an interesting exercise to discuss the evolution of dressage, I remember when EG style of dressage was all the rage and it's really only been the success of Carl et al that seems to have changed the perception. I wonder if in the future we won't even like that! Will the breeding of Toto etc mean we can have his style of dressage without horses breaking? Maybe. Will I still moan about piaffe until the end of days, yes.i don't have time to watch 38 mins now but I remember watching quite a lot of the old olympic vids and seeing a lot of really quite hollow and stiff horses, it sure is a different sport
(I just skipped through a bit and happened to catch an irregular passage
Like I say. I'm not a judge and I don't generally get on board with judge bashing, the sport depends on them and they are generally trying to do the right thing for almost no pay. so I would put the scoring aside because to my knowledge none of us are judging at that level so can't directly explain the rationale. but I think the criticism of imperfect performance in the arena is a bit nuts, it's a task that's almost impossible.
oldie48
Well-Known Member
I think it was in a recent article by Laura Tomlinson that she mentions the need to travel abroad to get her horses used to the big atmosphere as we have so few big venues in this country whereas in other European countries they have lots of choice. I live quite close to Hartpury and always try to go to their gala evenings where you get to see lots of the up and coming horses at GP, often very green at that level and therefore showing a lot of tension. The audience is always encouraged to clap and make a bit of a noise.
tristar
Well-Known Member
take look at corlandus and margit otto crepin in the coupe du monde 1989 you tube, i have a much better quality video of this, from years ago
corlandus was the first spidery mover i saw
and the pas de trois otto crepin plus klimke and stuckelburger, champions of their time, anyone care to comment ?
i feel more than a little elated and dare i say ambitious, no inspired after looking at them
corlandus was the first spidery mover i saw
and the pas de trois otto crepin plus klimke and stuckelburger, champions of their time, anyone care to comment ?
i feel more than a little elated and dare i say ambitious, no inspired after looking at them
Mule
Well-Known Member
I just watched a few tests. There's a lot of walk in the test and very little trot. The horses look less powerful and less extravagant than today's horses. Also, the head and neck carriage is very different. There's a lot less suspension in the passage in the older video. It's interesting how much it's changed. I wonder how different it will be 50 years from now.
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ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Much better than the last centre line on the other, but my eyes are still drawn to the big difference in the lift and hold of the right hind hoof compared with the left one. The left one is brought up and stays up, the right one is brought up and dips. Is that just a training issue, it doesn't look like tiredness?
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ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Wow, nothing like as polished as I expected.
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
I just think the music is so wonderful - it stirs the emotions and its a pacy test which keeps you watching avidly. I can see why it gets the marks it does if 40% of the marks. So many freestyles are a little dull and just don't have this passion and emotive music. I found CDJ Rio freestyle a little boring because of the music, preferred her London one. I think Toto looks a stronger horse that his father so it will be interesting if he stays sound.
oldie48
Well-Known Member
I've had a look at the 1989 vid and although it was poor quality it was still easy to see a very impressive hind toe drag, there was very little, if any, lift in the passage and piaffe. Not sure I saw much evidence of the spidery front legs probably because I was so focused on the hinds! I have looked at the pas de trois and there's a fair bit of hind toe dragging there too from all three horses, towards the end they are all doing it in unison!
I also looked at the bit of the GP with Toto that MP posted and preferred it to the Kur too.
BBP
Well-Known Member
I’ve been merrily going through and freeze framing it to see how many points the trot is 3 beat instead of two beat. Think it’s following a video posted by shortstuff on handstands in piaffe. Interesting to watch.
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
It is quite interesting when you get into the mechanics of it, someone on another page showed the points where all of the trot was only on one hindleg, that was very interesting!
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
i don't think that's a new thing, people have been writing about DAP+ or - for years.
Likewise the 4 beat canter in piris
Likewise the 4 beat canter in piris
oldie48
Well-Known Member
What's DAP+ or -?i don't think that's a new thing, people have been writing about DAP+ or - for years.
Likewise the 4 beat canter in piris
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
There used to be a poster on the BD forum who was really into the DAP used to mention it on every post it seemed ?.i don't think that's a new thing, people have been writing about DAP+ or - for years.
Likewise the 4 beat canter in piris
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
Diagonal Advanced Placement, so in trot DAP + is where the hindleg of the diagonal pair hits the ground before the corresponding foreleg. this tends to make horses appear uphill (or be a consequence of it depending on your viewpoint).
DAP- is where the foreleg hits the ground first = horse appears on the forehand.
many many many dressage horses show DAP+
I don't know anything about this blog but it has some ideal photos to demonstrate
https://www.behindthebitblog.com/2008/06/diagonal-advanced-placement-in-equine.html
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
yeah I was having flashbacks!!
Cortez
Tough but Fair
I'm so far out of the sport now that little I have to say will add anything, but as someone who used to ride and train at GP, this video reaffirms for me why I left the modern sport. Yes, the horse is amazing, and so is his rider, but it's not what I want to watch or do. The scores are broadly correct, though, despite slight wobbles and irregularities. The Kur is not the same as the GP or Special, and as Milliepops has explained the weighting is entirely different.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
H&H article incl canter pics http://www.centaurbiomechanics.co.u...co-uk/_img/Horse and Hound Canter Article.pdf