Even more livery yards moving towards banning winter turnout?

People would be horrified if they heard you locked your dog in a crate by itself for 23 hrs a day. Surely a horse isn't different?

I know everyone loves their horses and tries their best with the options around them. But people seem to turn a blind eye to horse welfare at times.
 
Haven't read all the replies but why don't we follow what they do on the continent? I used to be at a German yard and they closed the fields in the winter. However, most of the stables had a small yard attached so the horses could at least get out into the fresh air as and when they wanted. Mine was a concrete yard and others were grass (which did get muddy but it was up to you). The ones that didn't have their own yard attached were given time out in the sand school. It was quite a posh yard, mind you, (but not expensive by UK standards) and there was also a horse walker.

Saying all that I'm on a small DIY yard now and we have winter turnout. We all have our own fields and we usually allocate one of them to be the winter field.
 
asmp said:
Haven't read all the replies but why don't we follow what they do on the continent? I used to be at a German yard and they closed the fields in the winter. However, most of the stables had a small yard attached so the horses could at least get out into the fresh air as and when they wanted. Mine was a concrete yard and others were grass (which did get muddy but it was up to you). The ones that didn't have their own yard attached were given time out in the sand school. It was quite a posh yard, mind you, (but not expensive by UK standards) and there was also a horse walker.

Saying all that I'm on a small DIY yard now and we have winter turnout. We all have our own fields and we usually allocate one of them to be the winter field.
Click to expand...

Interesting thread and following with interest. It's made me realise that my yard is far and away in the minority with regard to the facilities offered. We have an arrangement very much as described above, which is unusual in the UK, it seems. My lad shares grazing with my friend's horse but the yard doesn't allow 24 hour turnout at any time of year to help keep the ground and grass supply healthy year round. During the summer we've been turning out at night and bringing in during the day. We've just turned round for the winter and the horses are now in at night and out during the day. However ... "in" means they are in their all weather areas, not in stables. I'm particularly lucky that my boy's stable opens onto his all weather pen and is never shut in. His pen is adjacent to three others and even in the worst weather the four of them tend to stand outside as a group even though he could go into a spacious, fully bedded stable. My friend's horse has a wood ship surfaced all weather area and is very happy out there day or night until the winter weather gets really grim, when he would be in his stable over night.

They are still on summer fields but have fully rested winter fields to go to when the weather demands it. The yard has stabling for 20 horses but there are only 10 on site (7 liveries and the YO's three) to ensure that they all have un-trashed grazing to go on to, and the YO is not intending to increase that number as far as I know. I moved from a bigger full livery yard with excellent facilities, to this one on assisted DIY for my horse's sake. It's more work but less money so we both win I think: he's happier and i'm better off!!. Even so, it's still a bit more expensive than other DIY yards in the area, but worth the extra for the excellent and unusual care arrangements.

I'd happily pay more to keep this arrangement or find it elsewhere if we ever move house.

Finding the ideal balance is tough, I know, and I think horse care is always going to be compromise between what's feasible, what' affordable and what's doable for the YO's point of view. In the end, you pays your money and you takes your choice.
 
I love those pens that open off stables, I looked at a yard that had them and thought they were wonderful.

Many yards aren't purpose built though, so it's little wonder they aren't widely available. Thinking of the yards I've been on: cowsheds, open sheds built into a bank, internal barn stable nestled into a natural hollow, converted garage, now an ancient stone barn...

only one yard I've been on was built by the YO, and could have had pens behind the boxes... and as it happened they had sandy turnout so it was good all year round ;)
 
Round where I am it's definitely a case of cramming as many horses in as possible without thinking about the consequences. I pay £35 a week (so neither cheap nor expensive) and there is a total of half an acre of land per DIY horse - no where near enough to have all year TO but its the best I can find :(
 
asmp said:
Haven't read all the replies but why don't we follow what they do on the continent? I used to be at a German yard and they closed the fields in the winter. However, most of the stables had a small yard attached so the horses could at least get out into the fresh air as and when they wanted. Mine was a concrete yard and others were grass (which did get muddy but it was up to you). The ones that didn't have their own yard attached were given time out in the sand school. It was quite a posh yard, mind you, (but not expensive by UK standards) and there was also a horse walker.

Saying all that I'm on a small DIY yard now and we have winter turnout. We all have our own fields and we usually allocate one of them to be the winter field.
Click to expand...

I was looking for this when I moved here. Back in the NW US where the climate is similar and the ground is constantly saturated in winter the most common thing I found was a winter "sacrifice" paddock that was built for drainage or had been gravelled. At the very minimum horses were given a paddock with a shelter so they could move around. The alternative set up, which is what I've found here for my girl, was a large turnout split in half used for no more than two or three horses at a time so that half was rested even in winter.

I would never keep my horse in 23 hours a day, even if she was being worked for hours a day. That doesn't mean she has to be on grass, just means that she has to be able to move around.
 
paddi22 said:
as regards liveries having to work 40 hours+ days and not being able to exercise a horse enough, should there be an onus on the owner to hire someone to give horses adequate exercise, similar to how people get dog walkers? just musing!
Click to expand...

Cortez said:
Or perhaps face up to the fact that they really don't have the time or energy to own a horse?
Click to expand...

Or make sure they are kept somewhere where they can get plenty of turnout and that daily exercise isn't necessary. I would rather pay a premium for this than pay someone to exercise my horse and still have him standing in 22 hours a day.
 
paddi22 said:
People would be horrified if they heard you locked your dog in a crate by itself for 23 hrs a day. Surely a horse isn't different?

I know everyone loves their horses and tries their best with the options around them. But people seem to turn a blind eye to horse welfare at times.
Click to expand...

Well let's just shoot half the horses in the wet areas of the country that will sort the issue for a while .
 
I think horses tell us a lot - if we pay attention - about whether they want to be in or out. My friend's TB would be happy to never leave his box. I have seen him calmly but persistently walk backwards from the gate in the direction of his stable when he realised he was paddock bound. The weather wasn't even bad.

My little draft horse, however, hates being in. He's extremely hairy and gets condensation all over him when he's in. We had to do 2 whole days when we had floods (& yes - he had some time to stretch in the arena), but when I led him out n the 2nd day for a stretch he unceremoniously towed me towards the main field entrance. There was knee deep water and a new river flowing by. He hates getting his feet wet so I assumed we'd be heading back to the stable in short order. No. He pulled the lead rope from me, galloped through the water and disappeared up to his field. That would be one very, very miserable horse without winter turnout.
 
paddi22 said:
People would be horrified if they heard you locked your dog in a crate by itself for 23 hrs a day. Surely a horse isn't different?

I know everyone loves their horses and tries their best with the options around them. But people seem to turn a blind eye to horse welfare at times.
Click to expand...

This 100%
 
annagain said:
Or make sure they are kept somewhere where they can get plenty of turnout and that daily exercise isn't necessary. I would rather pay a premium for this than pay someone to exercise my horse and still have him standing in 22 hours a day.
Click to expand...

You might well want to pay a premium for turnout but what if it's just not there pressure on land is going to get worse and worse
All over here livery yards are being built over , I am lucky mine are at home but I worry about the future of horse care .
 
Goldenstar said:
Well let's just shoot half the horses in the wet areas of the country that will sort the issue for a while .
Click to expand...

I'd say half of them would shoot themselves if the only option was to be in 23hrs!

i live in a very, very wet area and horses here don't stand in 24hrs. I don't think there's any excuse for it. We have a small all weather for the worst of the weather, so they still all get out for a play and a groom together
 
Wow.I think we all need to take a step back and cool down a bit! I'm not going to shoot my horses if we have a couple of wet days, I know them well enough to tell if they are miserable, they are provided with sufficient forage and stimulation to stay on an even keel mentally and physically and I am absolutely certain there are very many owners like me.

Not every yard has provision for all weather turnout. Wishing it was different won't make it so. One thing is for sure, everyone on this board will be doing the best they can in all circumstances, the OP included. There is no perfect world.
 
Phew just read this thread from start to finish! Makes for an interesting read. I have just had to look for somewhere to keep my arthritic gelding out 24/7 for the winter, but 2nd horse is stabled overnight. YO has hooefully found a solution and we are seeing if he can stay on the yard he is at now. We are very lucky-small private yard and managed 10 to12 hours turnout every day last winter bar a few days when they came in early due to the weather. I do worry, three yards in our area have closed down for building so god knows where I would go if mine were to close. We are still on summer fields but feeding hay so as to preserve the winter fields as long as possible.. in the hope winter fields will not be too trashed. summer fields are next to a river so they will stay in there with ad lib hay until heavy rains force us to move them back. I would worry about my stabled horse being on less than 6-8 hours a day turnout though more is preferable. In the winter I purposefully get to the yard very early (4:50am) so that he is out by 5am ish to increase his turn out time, then it is less of an issue if they have to come in at 3/4ish, I luckily also have a huge stable (16x14ft)so plenty of room for him, with two big open windows that he can look out of and watch what is going on.
Very few yards I imagine are 'perfect'
 
Last edited:
We also live in a very wet area and my horse goes out pretty much every day. However, I can do this as it is my land, he is pretty sensible out in the field, he has 2 acres to trash. We also put in a large concrete area (about 7m x 12m or a bit bigger) so that he can wander about freely and go in and out of his stable during the day if he's kept in because the weather is too horrific.

That is just enough land/space for me to be able to turn him out in the winter where we are. Livery yards just can't provide that space for each horse so in a wet area, banning turnout appears to be the only thing to do. My fields get trashed but I would rather have a happy muddy horse than one stuck in his stable. And I do count myself incredibly lucky to be able to make the choice as to whether he goes out every day (not to mention having an agricultural contractor for a husband who shakes his head every year and says "what do you think I am? A miracle worker?!!").
 
paddi22 said:
I'd say half of them would shoot themselves if the only option was to be in 23hrs!

i live in a very, very wet area and horses here don't stand in 24hrs. I don't think there's any excuse for it. We have a small all weather for the worst of the weather, so they still all get out for a play and a groom together
Click to expand...

That's very nice for you and as I say I am lucky and my horses can have fields all. the time although I don't do living out as I have horses to use them and doing that means using stables having them clean and clipped etc etc .
But would you do ? clients don't have the upper hand were there's very few yards with enough space you can't vote with your feet when you have no where better to go.
 
i'm completely sympathetic to it and understand that a lot of people are limited in the options near them. If that was the case and i'd limited time, then i'd pay for someone to ride or walk out my horse, or else get a sharer to ensure the horse was in a decent amount of work and out of the stable for more of the day, even if its just tied outside being groomed.

I don't think its fair to keep an animal that size in a stable all of the day. it's the equivalent of battery farming i think. I know the arguement that some horses like boxes, the same as some people prefer sitting alone in their room, but being honest thats a tiny tiny minority. The minimum most horse deserve is time out to play, groom and interact - not be in solitary confinement.

I don;t have much money, and at the house we keep 3 horses on an acre and they all turned out into a small all weather. no reason every yard can't do the same. I wouldn't keep a horse at all if the only choice around me was 23hrs a day. Noone here would crate their dogs 23hrs a day, a horse is no different .
 
Maesfen said:
I've enjoyed this thread but it amazes me how casual people are that YO should put in all weather areas so they can turn out when in some cases they are paying peanuts but don't want their costs to go up.
Click to expand...

i agree with you, costs should go up to cover it. Yard owners need to make a living and run a viable business. I know i'd pay extra for livery if it meant my horse was happier
 
But all weather turnouts are just cages under the sky unless they are very large .
Such situations are only acceptable for horses in proper daily work .
What people do with old or very young horses in such situations I just don't know .
Keeping three horses on an acre is awful in my book unless they are in really hard work .
 
i have a 7 acre field too. so they come up to the house to when they are worked or the night before shows, at the moment its weaning time so those ones are up. Usually its ones that hack out a few hours a day at a minimum, and then have 2 days off in the bigger field.

a small all weather isn't perfect, but at least they can interact, be outside, have a play and not be stuck in a stable. It's a step up from a stable anyways. Mine always have the choice to go in and out, and they are 95% oif the time out,
 
Goldenstar said:
But all weather turnouts are just cages under the sky unless they are very large .
Such situations are only acceptable for horses in proper daily work .
What people do with old or very young horses in such situations I just don't know .
Keeping three horses on an acre is awful in my book unless they are in really hard work .
Click to expand...

I agree they are very restrictive and most horses will just wander about and stand eating hay so not much different to being in a stable, the same with a stable that has a yard attached they may be out in the fresh air so it seems better but is is not allowing natural behaviour or giving them any real exercise opportunity, it is possibly ok if they are in hard work but as a way of justifying keeping them in all winter because they get a chance to play in a pen it is just another sign that horse keeping is often more set up for convenience than for the good of the horses.
I would prefer to turn out and pay for the fields to be rolled/ harrowed in the spring and have a bit less grass than spend money putting in a turnout area although I have been tempted mid winter when dealing with wet muddy horses.
 
I find this thread depressing....it doesn't bode well for the future.
I don't think a stable without turnout in the winter is worth paying for at all, even if it has a hard standing pen....these are horses not dogs in a rehoming centre.
Obviously the days of horse ownership are coming to an end...or perhaps I should say the days of good horse husbandry are coming to an end!
 
I haven't posted for a while but feel obliged to add my experiences ...

I moved from a yard with completely unrestricted turnout and could kick myself in hindsight but sadly it offered no help and I needed it with shift work.

I moved to a yard which advertised all year turnout and they lived out all summer until October ish... By Xmas the rain started and the turnout became restricted access (happy with that) but then turned into none at all yet the YO's horses went out everyday?! ... We couldn't turnout in the school etc and sure enough the horses became hard to handle etc ... I moved and vowed never ever again!

Moved to another yard were it was turnout all day through summer, I wanted mine to live out but it wasn't an option despite been told it was when I moved there but by Sept they started to reduce it to 3-4 hours a day, crank the prices sky high and I dread to think by winter what turnout they'd have if any so again I moved having learnt a lesson first time round.

My boy is having winter off, he is fit and well but he is out 24-7 in a herd of 7 boy's, big field, lots of grass with natural shelter. He is rugged, checked daily and gets additional big bales of hay if needed through winter for £80 a month. He seems very happy and so am I ... Turnout is my number one priority at any yard and I won't settle for anything less, I accept restrictions in winter but keeping them in all day everyday imo is unfair and cruel, I'll never ever do it again to my horse.

OP I'd move whilst you can now, don't settle for anything less than what you want for you and your horse.
 
The difference between restricted daily turnout, say for an hour a day, and no turnout at all, is massive for horse welfare IMHO.

The former is workable, as long as the horse is also well exercised every day, and is on a yard with 'stuff' happening to look at. The latter is not acceptable.

Get real, though, folks, as zero turnout for those without their own land is only going to get more common.
 
I'm so conflicted on this thread. I know that every horse deserves what my horses now have. But I also remember when I was much younger and had time consuming jobs, that I was in a situation where I could either ride, or keep my horses in a place with turnout which I wouldn't have been able to get to with time to ride. (Or give up on my marriage!). And since riding was what kept me sane, the horse I had at the time lived in full time in winter without enough exercise. There was one day a week when it wouldn't get out of the box at all, and two other days when it was lucky to get forty minutes round the block, two when it got an hour in the dark on a group lesson, and only decent exercise at weekends.

Was that wrong? I don't know. It wasn't 'good' but I can't remember any of the horses I put through it being unhappy. Then again, I'm much better at reading horses these days.

And I'm pretty sure that if you could ask a horse 'I can offer you this life, or not to live at all' that most horses would choose to live.

Do we have a right to make horses live in less than great circumstances in order for them to provide us with entertainment and stress relief? Maybe.....
 
Yeah its a tough one. I just can't fathom spending all day stuck in one room, with just enough room to turn around and a 3ft by 3ft hole that i can poke my head out. I can't imagine how unstimulating and lonely it would be. Is it enough to just provide feed and shelter? isn;t there an onus on the horses inner wellbeing too?

I suppose its just interesting that you see posters (who are lovely) comment on threads about how zoos are cruel, and how its wrong to have a dog if you work during the day, and yet they have no issue on their horses having limited turnout.

And it's not a dig at anyone, everyone loves their horses and does their best. I just find it theoretically interesting, if that makes sense??
 
Last edited:
ycbm said:
I'm so conflicted on this thread. I know that every horse deserves what my horses now have. But I also remember when I was much younger and had time consuming jobs, that I was in a situation where I could either ride, or keep my horses in a place with turnout which I wouldn't have been able to get to with time to ride. (Or give up on my marriage!). And since riding was what kept me sane, the horse I had at the time lived in full time in winter without enough exercise. There was one day a week when it wouldn't get out of the box at all, and two other days when it was lucky to get forty minutes round the block, two when it got an hour in the dark on a group lesson, and only decent exercise at weekends.

Was that wrong? I don't know. It wasn't 'good' but I can't remember any of the horses I put through it being unhappy. Then again, I'm much better at reading horses these days.

And I'm pretty sure that if you could ask a horse 'I can offer you this life, or not to live at all' that most horses would choose to live.

Do we have a right to make horses live in less than great circumstances in order for them to provide us with entertainment and stress relief? Maybe.....
Click to expand...

I agree it's the dilemma of our time .
I think about it lots .
Planning permissions are going through all the time round here building over horsey land .
I am in my mid fifties and I think the best time for horse ownership has passed .
I learnt to ride in a lovely old fashioned riding school , most of those have gone and H and S would make impossible to teach as they did .
My ponies and then horses lived in rented fields very near our house very wet but salty and ragwort was a constant battle but it was fun .
When I married I moved here .
Where will the generation of riders learn are we going back to you needing horsey parents to learn really well .
Will horses return to being things only the rich can truly have unless your born onto a farm or something like that .
When I am out and about there are horses everywhere some appear to be clinging to existence in really grotty conditions what's going to happen to them all .
If as it seems likely the climate in winter is wetter and there's no doult that they are building everywhere what's going to happen to all those horses .
I fear that people will bigger problems than there's no turnout it will be there's no where near me at all I can find a yard .
 
paddi22 said:
Yeah its a tough one. I just can't fathom spending all day stuck in one room, with just enough room to turn around and a 3ft by 3ft hole that i can poke my head out. I can't imagine how unstimulating and lonely it would be. Is it enough to just provide feed and shelter? isn;t there an onus on the horses inner wellbeing too?

I suppose its just interesting that you see posters (who are lovely) comment on threads about how zoos are cruel, and how its wrong to have a dog if you work during the day, and yet they have no issue on their horses having limited turnout.

And it's not a dig at anyone, everyone loves their horses and does their best. I just find it theoretically interesting, if that makes sense??
Click to expand...

I think it's probably overdue for some scientific research on this issue. I'd like to know the incidence of ulcers in horses with 'insufficient' turnout but correct feeding, and the levels of stress hormones.

If we had those figures, we'd know a lot better what was going on their minds and just how much harm we are doing, or not.


Goldenstar, I share your fears. I bought a house with land in a National park with a lightness of heart, knowing that it was the last place in the country that would be built on.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top