Ex-raccehorse woes, seriously what am I going to do?

your vets are wrong, they CANNOT diagnose ks or si on the ground. i had my lad seen to by countless vets, passed all flexion tests etc. It's only the xrays can show it. So there's no point saying it's not that, if the proper work up hasn't been done.

She needs turnoout as well. when my lad is stabled and fed with no turnout, he is a lunatic. If I were you i'd move to a yard that had better turnout.
 
Agree with the poster above my mare was suddenly horrible the vet gave me such a warning before I made him send me to Rossdales that if it was behavioural I would have to pay the bills. We did several workups at home and my vet was convinced she was sound however she had SI pain, hock Arthritis and psd.
 
I think she physically needs much more turnout than she can mentally cope with. Are you able to work her twice a day? If not, could you employ someone?

In your shoes I'd find a trainer I could trust, someone with a proven track record retraining ex racers, that could show me how to get her listening on the ground first & work from there. Lots and lots of luck & a virtual *hug* it'll get better, you just need some experienced support :-)
 
I read this and felt like I had to register to add my input (as the owner/rider of a somewhat 'enthusiastic' ex-racer and having worked in racing)

First off - I'd recommend the vet, a full work up of back/SI especially, gastroscopy and an ovary scan, plus anything else they might think of. Hormones can make them do strange things, sometimes through pain, other times through PMT! The fact that she's pretty bad on the floor too makes me think it could be something like that - this is not normal 'thoroughbred behaviour'...
If they find something fixable, then great, treat it and see. If they don't then you can hopefully be fairly sure there is nothing physically wrong and then proceed to try and work through it with a bit more confidence in that you won't be hurting her.

Next - consistency is everything with ex-racers. The vast majority of ex-racers I've seen with behavioural issues have all been ones that haven't been ridden enough post retirement, have no routine etc. Mine is brilliant when in full work, but there is a definite difference if he has had a few days off (or heaven forbid, a week!) In training they are used to being ridden (and worked fairly hard tbh) six days a week, and if they miss a day you can pretty much always tell. Most ex-racers should be used to hacking, but it does depend on where they have come from.
So if you can I'd try to ride every day, ask no questions from her and just get on, fairly loose rein (mine is loose rein = will not gallop, jog etc. tightening up rein = is it time to go faster?) go straight out for a hack and do NOT get off! Stick with that for a few weeks and see if there is an improvement.

Then, if this is beginning to show an improvement begin looking for a new trainer. Your one might be fantastic with some horses, but if they aren't making you feel confident and aren't working through her issues with you then they are not the right one at this point. I found when I got my current horse, having come off a completely different pony, a lot of the instructors who had been good for me through PC etc. were of no help at all when my wild little TB started hurtling round SJs at breakneck speed - they just couldn't understand why he was being as he was - so we had to reconsider. Now he is more of a 'normal' horse we can go back to the old instructors! Depending on where you are in the country I'm sure someone off here will know of someone helpful.

Best of luck :)
 
I have not read many of the posts, except you have had her or for 4 years and apart from the day you tried her and the day she came to you she has been difficult. This horse is not for you OP, do what you have to do or want to do, but don't struggle on like this.
 
Thank you so much for your help this makes a lot of sense and unlike others I am grateful for you not coming across as attacking me, I will try the hacking when I can get her out on daily turnout again, it will be hard to go out on a long rein/loose rein, she normal goes out of the gate sideways snorting fire and doesn't breathe for the first mile, and I know I am nervous and she picks up on anything and in the past I have tried PAX and a good friend with a good horse to help her, its her reaction to the 'out of the blue' stuff which is hard, when I got off last time I hacked her 2 Shetland stallions which an ignorant person keeps by the bridleway decided to be by the gate on our way home, I get that most horses haven't seen a Shetland before, but 2 squealing ones kicking each other for the spoils when your on a steep tarmac hill that's slippy at the best of times is not ideal and its the only way out of the yard, my auto reaction is to take up the reins, not pulling just contact, she then panics even more, roots, and goes up if you don't let her go, if you let her go your going at 90mph sideways in blind panic.
 
I know some TB's can be quiet/lazy but some are also very sensitive and it's this that makes them wholly unsuitable for a nervous rider. Mine is 19 now and still a sod at times and I would not entertain a nervous rider for him. Had him as 6 yr old straight from racing and was fine for few wks and then started to test the boundaries and basically scared me to death. The problem got worse until I could barely hack him out. Got some more experienced, very confident people to hack with me and they kind of bullied me into manning up! Far from easy but we got there and I'm lucky now that I don't seem to suffer any nerves ... falling on my head too many times perhaps!

With a sensitive breed such as TB consistency/routine both in environment and handling is critical. Big livery yard didn't suit mine, nor did yard where he didn't have routine. Your trainer is probably a confident rider who can ride her through her bad behaviour but then when you get on and are not able to, that consistency is lost. I am really not being critical as i totally get how awful nerves can be - and understandable in this case - but her behaviour when turned out and being handled demonstrate to me how unsettled and anxious she feels. Some of them need a "boss" and are lost without one.

I think you need to be honest with yourself. If you do not feel you are able to overcome your nerves to give her the work she needs she may not be the horse for you. You need an ass kicking sister like mine really!

I am sorry you've had such a rotten experience and wish you lots of luck whatever you decide to do
 
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Snopuma one of the problems with people sounding critical is that you aren't actually answering anyone's questions so we can't give any more specific advice. How often are you working her?
 
A nervous rider can't ride a spooky beast successfully and teach it to be a nice quiet ride.
I was a asst trainer of racehorses for a while,, one girl [ straight from pony club exams] got so scared her hands had to be prised off the reins [horse left the gallops and trotted back to the yard, back to the trainers lawns where he was happily eating the grass [deep hoofprints].
I got the blame, as asst trainers do, so she was put on the hacks for two months, then her b/f was told to show her what to do, all this took about three months, so she was "not earning her corn", she did eventually become capable of riding 50% of the horses, not any of the strong one or any of the nutters.
This was equivalent to you having two lessons every day for thee months.
 
snopuma said:
when I got off last time I hacked her 2 Shetland stallions which an ignorant person keeps by the bridleway decided to be by the gate on our way home, I get that most horses haven't seen a Shetland before, but 2 squealing ones kicking each other for the spoils when your on a steep tarmac hill that's slippy at the best of times is not ideal and its the only way out of the yard,.
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So now you are also blaming some poor person who decides to keep shetlands ponies in a field which happens to be incredibly inconvenient for you?!? Lets ban the whole world from keeping Shetland ponies and heaven forbid they be stallions! Are you sure they are stallions or are you just assuming? The poor critters aren't even allowed to stand by their gate in your world! Maybe a lot of people get fed up of you and your mare and blame you for some of their issues too!

I would strongly suggest you sell up and get yourself a brain dead donkey and stop blaming everyone else for your own inadequacies!
 
EKW, take chilli chocolate pill, take a Ferroro Rocher, and if that is not enough take a brandy, there are TWO Shetland ponies out there who are saying to each other, "hey guys, that worked ............high fives" :)d
PS EKW, let me know where you will be next, I will be going to the races this month, its nice to see a nice horse from time to time.
 
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Apercrumbie said:
Snopuma one of the problems with people sounding critical is that you aren't actually answering anyone's questions so we can't give any more specific advice. How often are you working her?
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If u had read you would see that I haven't ridden her since October
 
Thank you to the few people who can form a nice reply an offer assistance, to the rest of you, I can only hope you find yourselves in a similar situation as mine just once, when you love a horse but that horse has scared you and you are having a very difficult time dealing with her, when all the talent and schooling you once had, appears lost, when the smallest request to trot round the school seem like climbing a mountain and you can't believe that you used to jump foxhunters and win chase me charlies and gallop round fields and ride bareback, and go to affiliated dressage and win, but that one little horse has taken it all away, they say you don't know what you have until you lose it and when in comes to confidence it is so true and so hard to get it back.

And to those who insist I get her worked up at the vets, NO, for the last time NO, she works incredibly well for the trainer, not a hint of a medical problem so please stop banging on.

I poured my heart out in a forum, I have learnt my lesson.
 
You say in your first post you bought her because she was "too boring" for her current owners. So was your confidence already a bit shaky then?
 
snopuma said:
Thank you to the few people who can form a nice reply an offer assistance, to the rest of you, I can only hope you find yourselves in a similar situation as mine just once, when you love a horse but that horse has scared you and you are having a very difficult time dealing with her, when all the talent and schooling you once had, appears lost, when the smallest request to trot round the school seem like climbing a mountain and you can't believe that you used to jump foxhunters and win chase me charlies and gallop round fields and ride bareback, and go to affiliated dressage and win, but that one little horse has taken it all away, they say you don't know what you have until you lose it and when in comes to confidence it is so true and so hard to get it back.

And to those who insist I get her worked up at the vets, NO, for the last time NO, she works incredibly well for the trainer, not a hint of a medical problem so please stop banging on.

I poured my heart out in a forum, I have learnt my lesson.
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I hope read this for I experienced very similar with my ex racer mare - down to the panicking out hacking, more so with contact, to just generally being a loony and difficult to handle.

If you want to stick with this mare I would really suggest turning her out 24/7 - or find somewhere where you can - where she has a stable herd, natural exercise and mental stimulation from other horses. If I've learnt anything about the breed, is that mental stimulation is what tires them out and relaxes them NOT physical exercise - they run off nervous energy, but if you can get inside their head and really make them think - they start to unwind and relax.

My next advice would be to strip everything back - no feed, just unlimited hay. If she is underweight then absolute basic feed, minimum starch and sugar possible. You may not want to but take away the bit - ride bitless - after familiarising her with the action. Just a plain rope alter is ideal - but you need to work on flexion from the ground first. I'm tellin you now that taking my mate bitless for a while totally cured her issue of panicking with more contact - it helped her focus and chill out - I honestly believe I wouldn't have ended up with a horse I could hack anywhere calmly by myself if I hadn't taken her bitless. Now back in a bit she is faultless - she just needed to unlearn the panic associated with more contact.

Do a lot of ground work. Get a rope halter, a 22ft rope and get started. Get her bending and flexing on the ground, get her changing direction by hand gestures and body language, get her walking over tarpaulin, around cones, over barrels/poles. Keep her MIND busy!! After a session of doing if this sort of thing my mate would be so content and relaxed it's unbelievable.

With the consistent ground work, with natural horsemanship methods that worked for her - she turned from a horse that sounded exactly like yours to one I could hack anywhere, canter in open spaces on the buckle end, and that a child could handle, she became just totally confident and Therefore relaxed.

I can't exaggerate enough how important mental stimulation is - the busier the mind the better - especially for such an intelligent breed. I know how easy it is to get into a vicious cycle of being scared and then not doing anything with the horse and then the horse gets worse and so on. Consistent and regular work is key. I know natural horsemanship isn't for everyone but I would highly recommend getting an instructor in for a couple of sessions and Give you direction. It might just save you and your horse.
 
Snopuma, I am not going to reiterate the need for a vet work up as many people have done so and for your own reasons you have decided not to. Fair enough. So looking at it purely as a behavioural issue, to put this into context I have a warmblood with whom I do BE. If he has more than a couple of days off or more than one day stood in, he can be a real tricky devil under saddle and/or in hand. Hes a flipping ace event horse, but if he was kept on the same routine as your mare he undoubtedly would be a homicidal disaster.

So if I was in your position and absolutely certain of no underlying medical issues I would be keeping her at a professional training yard where they can manage her turnout and stick her on a walker twice a day. I would want her brought back in to full time work (proper work) and schooled up. Then after six weeks (assuming she comes good) I would decide if I wanted to keep her and manage her or sell her on. I suspect the latter may be the better choice for you so I would be looking to sell her mid summer before you are faced with another winter.
 
Cragrat said:
You say in your first post you bought her because she was "too boring" for her current owners. So was your confidence already a bit shaky then?
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No my confidence was fine when I bought her, it was just something the previous owner said when I tried her, just that she was a bit boring as she was so straight forward.
 
ImmyS said:
I hope read this for I experienced very similar with my ex racer mare - down to the panicking out hacking, more so with contact, to just generally being a loony and difficult to handle.

If you want to stick with this mare I would really suggest turning her out 24/7 - or find somewhere where you can - where she has a stable herd, natural exercise and mental stimulation from other horses. If I've learnt anything about the breed, is that mental stimulation is what tires them out and relaxes them NOT physical exercise - they run off nervous energy, but if you can get inside their head and really make them think - they start to unwind and relax.

My next advice would be to strip everything back - no feed, just unlimited hay. If she is underweight then absolute basic feed, minimum starch and sugar possible. You may not want to but take away the bit - ride bitless - after familiarising her with the action. Just a plain rope alter is ideal - but you need to work on flexion from the ground first. I'm tellin you now that taking my mate bitless for a while totally cured her issue of panicking with more contact - it helped her focus and chill out - I honestly believe I wouldn't have ended up with a horse I could hack anywhere calmly by myself if I hadn't taken her bitless. Now back in a bit she is faultless - she just needed to unlearn the panic associated with more contact.

Do a lot of ground work. Get a rope halter, a 22ft rope and get started. Get her bending and flexing on the ground, get her changing direction by hand gestures and body language, get her walking over tarpaulin, around cones, over barrels/poles. Keep her MIND busy!! After a session of doing if this sort of thing my mate would be so content and relaxed it's unbelievable.

With the consistent ground work, with natural horsemanship methods that worked for her - she turned from a horse that sounded exactly like yours to one I could hack anywhere, canter in open spaces on the buckle end, and that a child could handle, she became just totally confident and Therefore relaxed.

I can't exaggerate enough how important mental stimulation is - the busier the mind the better - especially for such an intelligent breed. I know how easy it is to get into a vicious cycle of being scared and then not doing anything with the horse and then the horse gets worse and so on. Consistent and regular work is key. I know natural horsemanship isn't for everyone but I would highly recommend getting an instructor in for a couple of sessions and Give you direction. It might just save you and your horse.
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Thank you for this advice, I do have a rope halter so will set up some 'obstacles' for her this week x
 
She sounds as if she just needs a job to do.

She must also be going out of her mind with boredom if she's stalled and not been ridden since October.

Can you just not work her?
 
snopuma said:
she works incredibly well for the trainer, not a hint of a medical problem so please stop banging on.
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wait, you had said the trainer just managed to stick the bucking rearing and broncing.. i wouldn't class that as going incredibly well, i'd class that as just being able to stick on while a horse acted up?!
 
I am sorry OP, but there is no magic wand, you have persevered for four years, it is too long, send her to a good trainer for a month, I don't know why you have not considered this.
You are asking if anyone has had a similar problem, and many have had a similar problems, there is no magic wand, and keeping her stabled is about the worse solution.

We are not able to diagnose KS or any other problem.

She is difficult to handle to the point of causing you to punch her in the face, poor thing. This scenario is pointless. She is too much for you. She may have vet issues, but if you don't accept that, then you must accept it is behavioural. That would possibly be brought under control by a professional, [a long time ago I sent one away and he bashed the poor thing in to submission], so you need to find someone who is a] willing to take the risk with something like this and b]able to sort it without using harsh methods.

Even if she is "sorted" by someone else, most behaviours will re-surface when you return the horse to the same situation, so you will need to go for re-training too.

Seriously, what is the best thing to do? .... send it to sales livery, see what transpires.
 
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snopuma said:
I am pretty convinced now that when I tried her she was doped I have had one successful ride in walk trot and canter on her and that was the day I brought her home, the second ride she bronced in the school and bolted a first for me all other previous horses have had plenty to say so I would say I am accomplished after 37 years of horses but I have never felt like I did that day, I got some professional help after 6 months of avoiding the canter with her and to be fair barely riding her, the professional can ride her, yep he can he can really ride he sits to all the rearing, broncing and bucking. Good for him. He can't understand what my problem is. She has been to 2 dressage shows she won both her classes one with him and one with me (after he had warmed up - she bronced in the warm up)
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She isn't any better for the pro; he just manages to ride through it. In your position, I'd want a second opinion regarding the vet side of things, and then (assuming no cause is found!), some serious re-schooling from the ground up. And if that didn't fix things, I'd PTS before another winter rolls around.
 
You do say op in a previous thread, which I've now bumped up, that the mare has had an ongoing back problem.
 
snopuma said:
I mean keep saying get her worked up at the vets, but they have seen her countless times and she is sound she doesn't have KS and when 4 professionals have told me that and explained why she would not be a candidate for that and that it would be a pointless to investigate, when she has a moment in the school, she having fun, not the kind of fun anyone wants, but her kind of fun.
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I'm not trying to get at you but just because she is sound doesn't mean she doesn't have anything wrong.

And any horse can be a candidate for Kissing Spine. My Warmblood does exactly what you describe, fab in walk and trot but as soon as asked for canter just kept bringing my sister off. After the second time in a&e I was going to send her to be professionally schooled as I thought it was our problem but first I spoke to vet just to clear all the basics.

He started with a back xray and if that was clear would move on to ovaries then stomach for ulcers.

We didn't get past the back xray. She hd four processes fused directly under the back of the saddle and another four behind that starting to touch. Ot meant that when we asked for canter her spine couldn't make the movement it needed and carry weight as well.
She was completely sound on the lunge in all three gaits.

With out back xrays no one knows if a horse has KS or not. Their is no 'type' for it.

Hope you find answers
 
snopuma said:
.

And to those who insist I get her worked up at the vets, NO, for the last time NO, she works incredibly well for the trainer, not a hint of a medical problem so please stop banging on.

I poured my heart out in a forum, I have learnt my lesson.
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Actually I think you are taking it all wrong, you haven't answers anys questions on what the vets did, you said she is sound so she is fine body wise but if you look at the others and mine posts about horses that have done a similar to your girl and the out comes it makes a lot of sense to get something more done vet wise.

There are alot of knowledgeable people on here asking questions and if you would.just answer them.with out getting your back up you might have a bit more help.

This is going to sound mean but I feel sorry for your horse, you just seem so black and white. I say again just because she is sound doesn't mean there isn't a medical problem.

Will leave now as this is just going round in circles
 
I know you will ignore this but I will say it anyway....VET!

Just because a horse is sound, and can be bullied to behave, does not mean there is nothing wrong.

I watched a horse (not mine) be bullied by his very experienced rider because he would go well one day and then be completely un-ridably explosive the next. On the good days he would have won any dressage test going.

He was bone scanned and he had a sacrilliac injury, that was treated and he never looked back. He competed very successfully in dressage then went on loan to someone who does a bit of everything with him.

Horses are prey animals, they are designed to hide pain. Soundness does not = no pain!!
 
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