Facebook footage of welsh stud delivering youngstock to abattoir

[Hannahkayj]

Sadly not as the breeds are very specific. Minor white marking are sometimes sold as riding ponies but most dont sell them as they cannot guarantee the mare wont be bred from or be passed on pure bred The EU didnt help as they said every pony with a pedigree had to be sold as such.
I was howled down for suggesting every equine bred from should be graded and licenced from shetland to shire and in particular TBs as they have horrendous conformation defects but are sold for millions because mum and dad won races

Absolutely 100% agree in the grading it’s shocking to see how many conformationally unsound horses that haven’t done anything to warrant passing on the faulty genes breed. Just because it has a uterus they need to breed apparently

 

[Wishfilly]

Going away from the original issue now, but I think firstly this links back to a discussion many pages ago about what the true cost of producing these ponies would be, if they were bred using AI etc - many people are simply not prepared to pay what it costs

and secondly, short of some kind of licensing for breeding horses I don't know how you stop someone with some mares from running a stallion with them. i just can't see it happening.

In all honesty, I'd probably be in favour of licensing for breeding of all mammals at least- but I accept that's unlikely to happen any time soon.

I agree that using AI etc would significantly increase costs, but there is probably a middle ground between using AI and having a stallion running with a large number of mares? Perhaps even just being more selective about the mares used, and reducing numbers in general? I don't know, I just think it's a conversation worth having.

If there isn't a large demand for older section As, then it makes sense to breed less, I think?

I think we would be very surprised by the amount of sports horses who do end up in situations like this, it’s probably very common on the continent if someone doesn’t want a select few/not up to standard etc. I think we as a country are quite odd in how we think about it all.

How some feel it’s okay for an older horse to go? After years of working but a weanling isn’t.

I don't think it's okay for an older horse to go- but I was just using TBs as a breed where I'm pretty aware of the ages that they end up going to slaughter.

 

[dorsetladette]

if people want to ensure responsible breeding and traceability then I think recording unknown breeding would be a mistake. that's why I was asking about a secondary register (thanks for confirming shortstuff i already thought that happened with PREs which is why I thought it may already happen with other breeds )

I think this does happen within a few (rarer) breed societies. So you have different ratings or grades. but unfortunately the WPCS seem to spend so much time arguing between themselves and trying to out do each other that they are a long way behind many other breed societies.

I think they grade stallions now, which is a help. But I think they could go a lot further than they have. And lets face it grading is done by a panel of judges so that is based on opinion. So like showing your stallion could 'win' or 'lose' depending on which judge was sat on the panel on a particular day.

 

[ester]

Re. registration, I think there was a lot of argument over breed societies not registering stock that didn't meet the standard as they were still purebred and I think they have to now have an option.
Like welshies have section X.

Was surprised to see a Dales (think!) with a white sock a while ago that had had a very successful show career.

 

[Wishfilly]

Sadly not as the breeds are very specific. Minor white marking are sometimes sold as riding ponies but most dont sell them as they cannot guarantee the mare wont be bred from or be passed on pure bred The EU didnt help as they said every pony with a pedigree had to be sold as such.
I was howled down for suggesting every equine bred from should be graded and licenced from shetland to shire and in particular TBs as they have horrendous conformation defects but are sold for millions because mum and dad won races

FWIW, I agree with grading in terms of soundness and temperament, especially if only equines of a certain standard could then be bred from. But like licensing of breeders, I think it's unlikely to happen.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

Culling undesirable stock isn’t something to be hauled over the coals for IMO, highland studs can geld colts with undesirable markings or those who go over height but with the mares who is to say they won’t be bred from?

A secondary register is a good thought however how many passports are ‘lost’ and animals have chips removed and are redone as something else. It’s is a very good idea for all those playing by the rules however it is too easy to get new passports etc.

The colts weren’t selling, winter is here and we do not know the studs financial status. Many make their years living from the sales, this money keeps them for the rest of the year until the sales come around again. This hasn’t happened this year so they will be running at a loss.

They are no less dead for going to the abbatoir. Those saying shoot them at home well there isn’t really any difference other than walking onto a lorry or being winched.

To be honest if more conformationally challenged stock went into the food chain maybe we wouldn’t be hearing of all there young knackered horses with gentic problems, or those being buted and passed from dealer to dealer. Just my musings mind you ??‍

 

[Hannahkayj]

In all honesty, I'd probably be in favour of licensing for breeding of all mammals at least- but I accept that's unlikely to happen any time soon.

I agree that using AI etc would significantly increase costs, but there is probably a middle ground between using AI and having a stallion running with a large number of mares? Perhaps even just being more selective about the mares used, and reducing numbers in general? I don't know, I just think it's a conversation worth having.

If there isn't a large demand for older section As, then it makes sense to breed less, I think?



I don't think it's okay for an older horse to go- but I was just using TBs as a breed where I'm pretty aware of the ages that they end up going to slaughter.

Oh no wasn’t meaning you just a few comments (not on here) how was okay for an over 5 (for example) to go but under not.

 

[milliepops]

I think this does happen within a few (rarer) breed societies. So you have different ratings or grades. but unfortunately the WPCS seem to spend so much time arguing between themselves and trying to out do each other that they are a long way behind many other breed societies.

I think they grade stallions now, which is a help. But I think they could go a lot further than they have. And lets face it grading is done by a panel of judges so that is based on opinion. So like showing your stallion could 'win' or 'lose' depending on which judge was sat on the panel on a particular day.

interesting to know. thanks. I'm a very proud owner of a welshie but so far out of the world of breed societies cos it all just seems so political
I doubt mine would be very highly graded but she's a totally wonderful horse, and having full papers for her has opened competitive doors (not showing) that would have been firmly closed if she'd had a generic passport with no breeding recorded

 

[Hannahkayj]

Culling undesirable stock isn’t something to be hauled over the coals for IMO, highland studs can geld colts with undesirable markings or those who go over height but with the mares who is to say they won’t be bred from?

A secondary register is a good thought however how many passports are ‘lost’ and animals have chips removed and are redone as something else. It’s is a very good idea for all those playing by the rules however it is too easy to get new passports etc.

The colts weren’t selling, winter is here and we do not know the studs financial status. Many make their years living from the sales, this money keeps them for the rest of the year until the sales come around again. This hasn’t happened this year so they will be running at a loss.

They are no less dead for going to the abbatoir. Those saying shoot them at home well there isn’t really any difference other than walking onto a lorry or being winched.

To be honest if more conformationally challenged stock went into the food chain maybe we wouldn’t be hearing of all there young knackered horses with gentic problems, or those being buted and passed from dealer to dealer. Just my musings mind you ??‍

Fully agree. See some sorry states being buted to be sound “he’s not in pain though” ?

 

[Wishfilly]

Oh no wasn’t meaning you just a few comments (not on here) how was okay for an over 5 (for example) to go but under not.

Fair enough! I do agree the age doesn't really make any difference- I don't think it matters if these weanlings were under 6 months or not.

 

[Tarragon]

frankly my dear, i don`t give damn

name that film

 

[tristar]

name that film

gone with the poo, closely associated with the wind

 

[tristar]

You literally just said you don’t give a damn about making assumptions So what is it? don’t get upset about being quoted for what you’ve said

it was you i was referring to, you are very jumpy are`nt you, statement not question

thank you, but, when i want you to speak on my behalf, i will ask you, politely

it takes a bit more than you to upset me, you`ll have to try harder, if that is your aim

 

[Hannahkayj]

it was you i was referring to, you are very jumpy are`nt you, statement not question

I know hint why I said you might not give a damn. ??‍ Jebus wept

 

[tristar]

I know hint why I said you might not give a damn. ??‍ Jebus wept

is that supposed to read jesus, do not take the lords`s name in vain, especially on sunday

have a nice day, i`m just of to play with me rescues, so they don`t end up as horse meat ta ra

 

[Hannahkayj]

is that supposed to read jesus, do not take the lords`s name in vain, especially on sunday

have a nice day, i`m just of to play with me rescues, so they don`t end up as horse meat ta ra

It’s a Monday ?.
Okay have fun ?

 

[tristar]

It’s a Monday ?.
Okay have fun ?

i know what day it is, was just pointing it out for future reference

 

[shirl62]

If they were genuinely so conformationally flawed that they couldn't have a useful life, then obviously that is different- but I don't think we know this is the case? It's just rumours, isn't it?

If it's the same stallion and he's thrown three foals with major problems, then IMO he should be gelded and not used for breeding again.

I do agree that circumstance is different, but I'm not sure it definitely applies here?

There was a previous post that said these foals were advertised for sale when they were 2 months old ( to be ready when they were weaned) so I can only assume they were of breed standard. I guess the point of this outcry is that it has brought media attention to the plight of ALL animals discarded like trash at the hands of man. I for one have been deeply affected by this and for all animals in similar situations.

 

[Equine_Dream]

i find this very sensible, we all know horses that are quiet to handle are more marketable, churning them out is the right word, it has gone on for as long as i can remember, which is a long time, we bought many a colt or filly that had not been touched, ever, until herded up to be sold, its a big effort to take a strong healthy wild foal and turn it into a civilized person, who can be lead, groomed, feet picked up etc. and involves a certain skill, it adds value and opens up the ponies potential to have a useful future life, this should really be started when the pony is on the mother, by the breeder

my grandfather was a great and knowledgeable horseman, three things he said that always stuck with me are, always be gentle with horses, something i have been ridiculed on here for saying, but we just laugh about it, take things slowly and give the horse a chance, many of his horses lived soundly into a great age, the other was about horsemeat, its not right to eat horses.

they were his opinions and i respect his right to them

a code of conduct for breeding societies, not breed standards, more ethical treatment of youngstock, that they should be handled and quiet to lead before being offered for sale, that ponies that need to be culled from the breeding herd should be broken to ride where possible so have a purposeful future, because they are not dogs on a piece of string for the showring, they are ponies for riding, that is the reason for their existence in the first place, and if en masse breeders are too bone idle or unskilled to do the basic things they should not be breeding in the first place, breeders licence?

because we all know things need to change, for the sake of the animals, things like these foals fate could be a catalyst for this becoming unacceptable, at the end of the day we are all agreed how sad it is.

Your grandfather sounds like a lovely man Tristar.

If only there were more people who thought that way these days.

 

[Wishfilly]

There was a previous post that said these foals were advertised for sale when they were 2 months old ( to be ready when they were weaned) so I can only assume they were of breed standard. I guess the point of this outcry is that it has brought media attention to the plight of ALL animals discarded like trash at the hands of man. I for one have been deeply affected by this and for all animals in similar situations.

That's true.

I think all the rumour and speculation in this case doesn't help.

The rumour the foals were parrot mouthed is actually likely to be pretty damaging to the stud long term, so it's probably not something to be repeated as fact unless people are sure?

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Do you have the same level of anger over the slaughter of other animals?

I have no idea what tristar feels, but speaking about people in general, I think that there seems to be a growing number of persons that does have that level of anger regarding any animals being slaughtered.
Sadly it feels as if more and more people feel that it's their way, or no way, when it comes their personal decision to choose to not eat meat.

What I don't get is that, at least here in Sweden, animal rights activists have targeted small, local abattoirs. According to what I've read, to the point that the majority of them have had to shut down, because they couldn't afford the safety costs anymore.
So now most slaughter animals have to be transported longer distances to the remaining large abattoirs, which upsets the animal rights activists even more. I don't get it. If you shoot yourself in the foot, I think that you have nobody but yourself to blame.

 

[Shilasdair]

I'm a big believer in the value of horses' lives, in fact I've got two useless ornamental horses slobbing about in the field and costing me time and money as I type this.

But I'm also not really placed to judge other people - particularly not the owners of the stud, who after a bereavement and in a world turned upside down both socially and economically due to a global pandemic, should decide to humanely euthanise weanlings that they couldn't sell.

 

[Clodagh]

I haven't read it all...and I hope this isn't opening the discussion up too widely, but I hatch chickens every year, rare breeds or colours. I cull all the males that are not exceptional at 6 weeks. I hate doing it, and in fact now hatch far less than I used to to avoid it, but if you hatch an egg chances are no one wants if it is male, and at least 50% are.
Incorrect females can be sold to pet homes.
So either let the rare breeds die out or become incorrect or unsound or cull.

 

[shortstuff99]

The reason why activists get so passionate about it is they see it as the murder/slavery/genocide of animals. To them there is no nuance in that, you are either pro murder or you're against murder and that everyone should be against murder obviously.

However, most non-activists are more pragmatic then that.

 

[thefarsideofthefield]

I have eaten horsemeat in Belgium and enjoyed it. It had been bought especially for me as my hosts knew that the British loved horse.

Lucky they weren't based in Thailand ?

 

[Cortez]

The reason why activists get so passionate about it is they see it as the murder/slavery/genocide of animals. To them there is no nuance in that, you are either pro murder or you're against murder and that everyone should be against murder obviously.

However, most non-activists are more pragmatic then that.

I am familiar enough with several animal welfare organisations to have met many of the more outré types who seem to me to be very keen on "saving" everything, but don't actually do anything when push comes to shove and the shit is literally flying. I have a feeling that most activists have had little practical experience of breeding and caring for animals.

 

[teddypops]

I haven't read it all...and I hope this isn't opening the discussion up too widely, but I hatch chickens every year, rare breeds or colours. I cull all the males that are not exceptional at 6 weeks. I hate doing it, and in fact now hatch far less than I used to to avoid it, but if you hatch an egg chances are no one wants if it is male, and at least 50% are.
Incorrect females can be sold to pet homes.
So either let the rare breeds die out or become incorrect or unsound or cull.

Colts can be gelded.

 

[stormox]

And what about dogs then? Just one example - merle is a common colour in the Australian Shepherd. Breeding merle to merle creates 25% white or problem (deaf, no eyes, etc) puppies , without going heavily into genetics merle has a dilute gene, and 2 dilute genes produce the lethal white gene.
So do breeders not breed merle to merle? No - they carry on to keep the colour in the breed, and cull the resulting defective puppies.
This goes on in nearly all breeds where the desired trait is a mutation- the unhealthy ones are culled.
IMO breeders shouldnt breed these dogs, but pugs, french bullies etc etc are very popular so they carry on breeding and killing.

 

[ester]

I don't think anyone should be breeding merle to merle, there is no need to to keep the colour in the breed.

 

[Gingerwitch]

Sorry to be blunt. If you are skint, cracking up and bereft cause your mum has died and all the assets are stuck in probate and the world has stopped functioning because of covid - unless your in a ring fenced industry and don't give a crap about the rest of the world cause you are not affected - banks usually ! Have tried to sell, can't afford to geld keep and bring in for another 12 months. You do some thing legal and get vilifilled. How awful ! The colts are not in pain are not suffering and did not get left to starve to death over winter but these folk are being treated like animal abusers. They are not. They did what they thought was the best thing to do and now we want to bring down their business !! Just who is being cruel to who now ?