georgiegirl
Well-Known Member
I think it's utterly disgusting that the RSPCA are involved on assessing this case in the first place seeing as they have a highly vested interest in the place. Wholly inappropriate.
Facebook - Horse shot by livery owner
- Thread starter rockysmum
- Start date
saddlesore
Well-Known Member
This absolutely. I can't believe some people are almost justifying his actions!
luckyoldme
Well-Known Member
i would nt seek to justify his actions.
I also would nt seek to justify the actions of someone who thinks that you can use a service and pay when you feel like it.
Its disgusting what he did, she should have had a live horse tied up in her garden but i guess she just chose the wrong person to mess with.
rockysmum
Well-Known Member
I agree, WHW have just replied to my email on the night it came out saying the RSPCA are dealing with it. I have suggested that people have no faith whatsoever in the RSPCA handling horse cases and that they should look into it
fatpiggy
Well-Known Member
I'm not justifying his actions at all, it was an appalling thing to do when it could probably have been sorted out quickly by the owner, not the loaner, but there are plenty of horse owners out there who quite happily rip off the YO knowing full well that no sanctions will be placed against them. From personal experience, I knew of one YO who was owed over £1000 unpaid livery by a single family - they had 6 horses they couldn't afford to keep, and also owed the haylage supplier several hundred as well, but neither wanted to do anything to serious about it because they feared for the welfare of the horses, and on two other yards the same livery did a moonlight owing each over £700 rent. I could have told them the livery would do something like that because I'd known her since she was a teenager and wouldn't have believed a word that came out of her mouth. At the end of the day, the loaner in this case seems to be to blame since she refused to pay her rent in advance. How many yards does anyone here know that allow payment in arrears?
Poor horse.
Biglets Mummy
Well-Known Member
Exactly....I am totally speechless.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
and more that they shouldn't as an interested party.
Alec Swan
Well-Known Member
As another has pointed out, you can't Contract outside the Law. As you (whilst wearing your farming hat) will be aware, "The Keeper" is the person upon who's land, the animals reside. "The Owner" and "The Keeper" may well be one and the same, but only with Owners who keep their animals on their own land.
If "The Keeper", correctly or otherwise, elects to shoot a horse which is on his property, as seems to have happened, then as The Keeper, they've become responsible for the correct and legally compliant disposal conditions.
It's time and case proven that those who have animals, on their land, even though they don't own them, assume by taking them in, or even arriving by chance, a certain responsibility for their actions. That, I assure you, is fact, and the guy who apparently caused the horse to be shot, and then delivered it to the front garden of a.n.other, is in breach of the Law.
Alec.
ps. Love the Mark Twain quote!!
Archangel
Normal, 10 cats ago
Surely the horse (RIP) would have had goods and chattels to the value of £30 or even £50 on or about the yard that could have been taken to cover the debt.
Honey08
Waffled a lot!
It was more likely to have been over repeatedly not paying on time or disagreement about how being a livery should work than over a £30 bill, who knows.
If he does get away with this legally there will be horses shot all over the place. No need for abandonment notices etc and procedures that we are told we need to follow... It could end up a huge mess.
If he does get away with this legally there will be horses shot all over the place. No need for abandonment notices etc and procedures that we are told we need to follow... It could end up a huge mess.
Spring Feather
Well-Known Member
I suspect the money was not really the issue. I'd say most livery yard owners have been in his situation, whereby some liveries don't pay their way and treat you like a bank! It is infuriating, I do understand that, but it's still no excuse to kill a horse however if it's in his T&Cs then his liveries would be in no doubt that it was something he *might* be prepared to do. I am in no way justifying what he did, not by a long chalk, but the facts remain that had the person who had the horse on loan paid their livery costs then this would not have happened.
luckyoldme
Well-Known Member
thank god some common sense at last. my whole feeling about the story is that the loaner is playing the victim card when in fact she could have done what everyone else does and paid her due.......its not just liveries its any business, there are a proportion of people who think that its ok to decide what and when to pay what they owe...........and i bet they would be the first to complain if they turned up at work and had to beg for their wages.
It was £30 for gods sake...@£10 a week........you get a good deal like that then still think its ok to mess some one around for the money. Most of us know there is a line not to be crossed in this case the loaner crossed someone who crosses the line.
Its a shame for the owner and the horse that they got involved with such stupid people.
Wagtail
Horse servant
It seems she refused to pay up front as was the requirement of the livery and told him she would pay in arrears. Personally, I don't allow a livery to land here without paying a month up front on arrival of the horse. Once I get to know people and trust them, I don't mind if livery is late, but I am very careful to begin with.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
The loaner IMO clearly bears a heavy responsibility for this happening all she had to do was the right thing and pay like everybody else in advance .
I would feel so guilty if I where her .
Alec Swan
Well-Known Member
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
I think that is harsh. I think she should feel guilty towards the man for not paying on time, but I don't think she should feel guilty for the shooting of the horse.
I am sure the lady did not foresee the outcome, nor would I have expected her to.
As the lady is known to read this thread I would like to tell her that I do not think you should feel guilty for this totally unexpected outcome, and I am very sorry for your loss.
Sebastian
Well-Known Member
I thought it was the owner of the horse and not the loaner that has commented in this thread. The post you have quoted refers to the loaner.
marmalade76
Well-Known Member
Totally agree, £10 a week is an exceptionally good deal and I would expect most yards require a certain amount up front from any new livery. The YO has probably had more than his fair share of bad payers to put such a thing in his T&Cs.
Bigbenji
Well-Known Member
Has the BHS made any comment to this yet? Be intrested to know their thoughts on how this was handled and if any measures could be put in place to prevent this ever happening again.
In my line of work I can be waiting anywhere from 4 weeks to 4 months for payments from clients and as frustrating as it can be to keep being told the money will with you on xxx and it doesn't arrive I wouldn't head over to their home with a baseball bat and destroy their property!
Sadly as ctpy said they will legally Proberly get away with it.
Hope the liveries vote with their feet and leave.
In my line of work I can be waiting anywhere from 4 weeks to 4 months for payments from clients and as frustrating as it can be to keep being told the money will with you on xxx and it doesn't arrive I wouldn't head over to their home with a baseball bat and destroy their property!
Sadly as ctpy said they will legally Proberly get away with it.
Hope the liveries vote with their feet and leave.
showaddy1
Well-Known Member
Two sides to every story, I feel for the owner and obviously the horse...
I can't imagine why the yard owner thought it appropriate to shoot the horse over a thirty pound debt, surely putting it through sales would have been a kinder alternative? Or even contacting the actual owner, as the yard owner would have the details from the horse passport.
It was a very bizarre over reaction, and if they can shoot a healthy horse and dump it unceremoniously using a JCB, I certainly wouldn't be using their services!
I can't imagine why the yard owner thought it appropriate to shoot the horse over a thirty pound debt, surely putting it through sales would have been a kinder alternative? Or even contacting the actual owner, as the yard owner would have the details from the horse passport.
It was a very bizarre over reaction, and if they can shoot a healthy horse and dump it unceremoniously using a JCB, I certainly wouldn't be using their services!
Dry Rot
Well-Known Member
I accept that "the keeper" has a duty of care towards an animal on his land, but that does not confer ownership. That duty can surely be conveyed to another by agreement. I had sheep straying onto my land from a neighbour. The police advised me that I should not do anything to harm them -- but that I was under no obligation to close gates! (I am not sure whether that conforms exactly to the law but this is rural Scotland!). Once dead, I would say it is debatable who is then responsible. Surely the owner? Or, in this situation, the owner's delegated "agent", i.e. the loaner. If the horse had died from natural causes, would the YO be responsible for it's disposal? I don't think so.
If the horse had been loaded up and transported to the loaner's premises, as the YO apparently intended, wouldn't that relieve him of any further responsibility (assuming it had been placed in a a secure enclosure with grazing and water)? A dead horse is as much personal property as a live one so delivering the corpse is no different in law.
There is definitely ownership in a dead dog because if you shoot a dog that is worrying your sheep (as you would be perfectly legally entitled to do) you must hand the corpse into the police. The police have no authority to dispose of it without informing you (the owner) and returning it to you if asked.
I think we are arguing some fine points of law here which is why these things are best left to the courts.
Incidentally, the information about the bad debt of £30 seems to have come from an anonymous and unidentified source. I wouldn't put much credibility on that.
As someone who has let grazing for horses (and got the bad debts to prove it), I can understand how exasperated the YO had probably become. First, a string of bad debts (you think there won't be others?). Then the loaner/owner not removing the horse when asked. Then the problems of it refusing to load. And finally the horse becoming dangerous.
On the other hand, the loaner, who is presumably responsible for the care of the horse, involves the Press and whips up public sympathy to cover her own neglect. A brilliant piece of public manipulation that even Max Clifford would have been proud of!
dogatemysalad
Well-Known Member
I think we all have sympathy with YO's who have liveries who don't pay their bills or pay late. The best prevention, although not foolproof, is to get paid in advance along with a deposit. I've never known a YO shoot someone's horse and dump it on their lawn though. It takes a vindictive person to do that for £30.
Mike007
Well-Known Member
Certainly a bizarre overreaction,yet somehow I dont feel we have the full story.Horse loaner moves horse in and immediately breaks the terms of the livery, For £30 for heaven sakes. Knows the terms and conditions ,but has absolutely nothing to loose ,as its not even her horse. Sounds rather as if this person set out to provoke this response.
rockysmum
Well-Known Member
Dry Rot, it has been confirmed the horse had only been on the yard for 3 weeks, £10 a week, hence the £30. And although I agree that she was wrong in not paying up, it doesn't excuse the actions of the people concerned. To be honest nothing she could have done would. The only possible reason would have been horse welfare and apparently the horse was in good health. The owner is trying to say it was neglected because it didn't have a rug. FFS how many others which aren't clipped and in work are still out without rugs.
Sebastian
Well-Known Member
The latest info in the press confirms that this is the case, but, we all know how reliable the press is, especially the Daily Mail.
Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
Don't really get why the livery owner would shoot and dump the horse for unpaid bill, he's not getting his money back by doing that is he.
Surely, it would have made more sense to sell the horse, even for meat money.
It sounds like more of a personal vendetta against the loaner.
Either that or he's got mental problems.
Surely, it would have made more sense to sell the horse, even for meat money.
It sounds like more of a personal vendetta against the loaner.
Either that or he's got mental problems.
Sebastian
Well-Known Member
Well, she could have paid and stuck to the terms of the livery agreement - i.e. pay up front. I think that this would have prevented this. Let's not get carried away. What the GG Centre has done is horrific, but to try and wash away all of the blame of this tragedy from Ms Warner is naive. She is not the victim here. The horse and the owner of the horse are.
Wagtail
Horse servant
I do find myself feeling extremely angry with the loaner, and it wasn't even my horse. Of course she was not to know she was messing with an unhinged YO, but the more I think about her attitude... There are a certain minority of livery 'clients' who are serial offenders and go from yard to yard never paying. No one deserves their horse to end up like that. I just really feel so sorry for the owner in all this. It's hard to feel sorry for the loaner, sadly.
RIP beautiful mare. From some reports it seems that she wasn't being cared for properly either.
RIP beautiful mare. From some reports it seems that she wasn't being cared for properly either.
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Sebastian
Well-Known Member
This is exactly why I have been saying earlier that I would like to know the full story, because I believe that there is a lot more to this. I am not sure if I want to continue my full thoughts on the matter, but all of the warning signs about Ms Warner are there when one considers what we know so far.
honetpot
Well-Known Member
As a land owner that has had several horses dumped on me so I can see it from the landowners side, why on earth should the loaner think she has brought this upon herself. No sane person would transport a dead horse down the road and dump in someone's front garden, its not only against the law but downright threatening and nasty.
https://www.gov.uk/fallen-stock
''According to the 2005 ABPR, horses are generally categorised as farm animals and their carcasses must be promptly disposed of at an approved site, in the same way as any other fallen stock''
The law is an ass in respect to horse dumping and the land owner has very little legal rights, the horse did not belong to her so he would not be able to sell the horse to get any money owed. How ever much money he was owed he just saw this as a easy way of getting rid of the problem