Facebook - Horse shot by livery owner

[Equi]

Just read this

"Nothing whatsoever to do with RSPCA York and district"

So that's how the RSPCA are handling it. Sensitively and with emotion. And isn't the gg centre in York?!

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Good point, the owner of the horse could have agreed to all this, including the return of the body to the loaner. Sounds very unlikely and then why would the police arrest anyone?

I do feel more sorry for the owner than the loaner to be honest. I cant imagine how they are feeling with pics of their dead horse all over national newspapers

The owner has been on here ...saying she knew nothing about it !!!

 

[ladyt25]

Just read this

"Nothing whatsoever to do with RSPCA York and district"

So that's how the RSPCA are handling it. Sensitively and with emotion. And isn't the gg centre in York?!

Yes, it is in Raskelf which I am pretty sure is a York postcode. And yes, the RSPCA DO keep many horses on land at the centre. I guess it isn't technically their issue as no queries over welfare. It is a police matter

 

[Chavhorse]

Having been in the position of having a loaner who just decided not to pay any livery for three months, I was contacted by the YO asking if I had in fact given her the horse as she had said as he wanted to change ownership so he could sell to repay the debt. I thank god that I was dealing with a reasonable human being who in the end refused to take my money (even though I offered) as it was not my debt.

This sends shivers down my spine the person I have real sympathy for is that poor owner finding out what had happened via some pics on a facebook thread.

If this was my horse I would by now be appealing to the group for bail money for the damage I had done to the land owner who has to be deranged as in no way can this ever be considered a proper reaction and the loaner for nor being up front with me and telling me she was having problems paying and taking my horse to a yard which has such a reputation.

 

[Dry Rot]

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/law-trial-by-media-watching-for-prejudice-1577021.html

 

[Alec Swan]

Out of interest, and going off on a different tangent here; does the DM and Mirror pay for stories?

I've never dealt with either, and wouldn't, but those who have tell me that when you make your enquiry, they will agree that if the story is of value, then Yes they will pay for it, you tell them your sorry tale, and then they just print it anyway! Hardly big enough to involve Max Clifford as an agent, and anyway, he's still doing a bit of pokey, isn't he?

Alec.

 

[Mariposa]

Out of interest, and going off on a different tangent here; does the DM and Mirror pay for stories?

I used to work for the Daily Mail (don't hate me...it was my first job out of uni!) - and they would pay for some stories (exclusives etc) but I doubt they'd have had to pay for a small story like this that's also been covered by rest of the national press.

 

[HBB]

Good point, the owner of the horse could have agreed to all this, including the return of the body to the loaner. Sounds very unlikely and then why would the police arrest anyone?

I do feel more sorry for the owner than the loaner to be honest. I cant imagine how they are feeling with pics of their dead horse all over national newspapers

Sadly the owner had no idea and has already posted on this thread....

My horse Kit was not hard to catch or handle she was a loving mare who did not deserve to end up like this. I would of collected myself rather then it resulting like this. I would hope people would now stop posting pictures and speculating about my horse. I'm devastated that they decided to carry out there actions without my consent.

Again Green007, I am sorry for your loss.

 

[Alec Swan]

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/law-trial-by-media-watching-for-prejudice-1577021.html

An interesting article, even though it's rather out of date, it none-the-less raises an interesting point.

To quote; "To have a case which is untriable is almost anarchy. It leaves the person accused in limbo, neither proved innocent nor guilty."

If the person being tried knows full well that they are guilty, and that they will most probably face a prison sentence, then sabotaging the case by having the media render it un-triable, would be their 'Get out of jail card', I'd have thought!

It's also interesting to see that as the article was written all but 20 years ago, still the media seem to assume a free hand.

Alec.

 

[Goldenstar]

On the subject of signing a contract that says the horse will be disposed of if you don't pay it could only be disposed of within the frame work of existing laws ie abdonment / eviction notices , you can't sign away the rights English law gives you .

 

[*hic*]

So I could effectively hire a slaughterman, take him to afield, say the animal is mine and ask him to shoot it...and it is legal?

It says this here:http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/11538293.Horse_killed_and_dumped_in_garden___2_men_arrested/?ref=rss

Insp Colman said a police investigation had been launched and the RSPCA would assist, but it is not illegal to humanely kill a horse if the owner's permission has been sought.

I understood that it was in black and white in the contract that debts would result in this drastic action so permission had been given.

Further to this, I ended up with a small pony on my land, to my surprise my husband suggested sending it to the hunt. When I rang the police to ask what to do about it and who would take it from me their view was that if it hadn't been collected in 14 days and I didn't know who the owner was then getting it pts was perfectly reasonable if I didn't want it.

We found the owner and in any case my husband wasn't serious.

 

[Equi]

Yes, it is in Raskelf which I am pretty sure is a York postcode. And yes, the RSPCA DO keep many horses on land at the centre. I guess it isn't technically their issue as no queries over welfare. It is a police matter

Yeah but they could have shown at least a smidge of compassion in their post :/

 

[fatpiggy]

I believe so.
But this story is on all the mainstream media I have just seen a report on the TV news .

DM did an article about me and my horse back in 2000, about a third of a page. I certainly didn't get any money for it, but the photographer very kindly emailed me all the pictures he had taken, which were beautiful.

 

[Moya_999]

How ever the tabloid dress it up its not the actions of a normal human person to kill an animal over a petty £ 30 bill. As I said before there were many other ways of recouping their so called losses.

This action is a bolt out the blue suffice to say not the actions of most YO//YM in the world. I am not saying this has not been done somewhere in the world.

It was a vicious act on a defenseless animal on its own but to transport it the way they did is not a normal human thing to do. I hope this place closes before more horses die this way over a petty small amount.

The people involved should be held accountable for their actions as I am sure if they had actually contacted the owner they would have got their monnies. I wonder if that yard will start getting hate mail or threats after all this publicity.! It certainly wont get them liveries that is for sure. The horse world is small and word gets around so hopefully people will leave and no one will darken their doors again.

 

[Red-1]

Answered further up the thread

 

[cptrayes]

I believe Criminal Damage is an offence for which someone may be sent to prison.

Not for damaging 'property' to the value of an ottb used as an occasional hack, I'm afraid

I'm really sorry for everyone wanting to see justice done here, but the law simply will not allow for the kind of punishment that almost everyone in the country would like to see him get.

Instead of petitioning for a jail term for this man, we need to be petitioning for the law to distinguish horses and pets from other 'property' and give them a much higher value for the purposes of punishing offenders.

Please don't get your hopes up for any justice for the owner or the horse here. If he can prove that he had a contract, and apparently other liveries say that they had the same terms, then he may have committed no offence at all in the eyes of the law at all in killing the horse.

Morally disgusting, yes. Legally? we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Alec Swan]

On the subject of signing a contract that says the horse will be disposed of if you don't pay it could only be disposed of within the frame work of existing laws ie abdonment / eviction notices , you can't sign away the rights English law gives you .

Whilst an animal such as a horse, or any farm livestock are on anyone's land, then they are deemed to be 'The Keepers', even if they don't own the animal, and that includes animals which have strayed or been dumped on to the land of another.

There are responsibilities attached to being 'The Keeper', and the disposal or the removal of any such animal fall under the description of 'responsible'. If animals stray on to your land, for instance, then opening the gate and turfing them back out would be a criminal offence, just as would the order of 'Failing to dispose of, correctly', of any fallen or dead stock. Simply dumping the dead horse in it's owner's garden is in itself a criminal offence. As the land owner had a dead horse on his property, so he was responsible for ethical and correct disposal. I can't be bothered to find the relevant conditions attached to the disposal of fallen stock, but they are there should anyone decide to investigate them. I very much doubt that the CPS or Trading Standards (the land owner is running a commercial enterprise, don't forget), will go to the trouble of prosecuting though.

Alec.

 

[Equi]

Think it has to be over a retain amount of money though? Like a Mercedes would be more jailable than a ftgh


Sorry I keep missing updates and posting to older posts! Lol

 

[Nettle123]

Feel so sorry for the poor horse and of course the owner such a tragic thing to happen. The yard Owner does sound deranged.

Surely though its standard practice to pay livery rent up front?, why would you expect not to pay at least a week in advance?. This situation could have been avoided imo.

 

[Alec Swan]

……..

Please don't get your hopes up for any justice for the owner or the horse here. If he can prove that he had a contract, and apparently other liveries say that they had the same terms, then he may have committed no offence at all in the eyes of the law at all in killing the horse.

…….. .

Which has long been my point. See above for a possible contravention of statutory conditions, concerning his disposal responsibilities. Mind you, perhaps if the animal could be considered as a pet, he might yet be in the clear!

Alec.

 

[webble]

Yes, it is in Raskelf which I am pretty sure is a York postcode. And yes, the RSPCA DO keep many horses on land at the centre. I guess it isn't technically their issue as no queries over welfare. It is a police matter

The branches are run independently to the main charity I expect that is what they mean

 

[cptrayes]

Which has long been my point. See above for a possible contravention of statutory conditions, concerning his disposal responsibilities. Mind you, perhaps if the animal could be considered as a pet, he might yet be in the clear!

Alec.

What a good point Alec. And disappointing, too. I was holding my hopes for an additional penalty from the disposal angle, but horses aren't agricultural animals, so does that mean he'll not even get done for that? I don't think it's even a criminal offence to fly tip on someone else's land, just civil.

This is a moral crime for which the law has a completely inadequate answer. But who in their right minds would think anyone would ever do it?

 

[Grumpy Herbert]

I think I could almost deal with the bar steward shooting the horse, although it is a disproportionately extreme way of getting rid of a problem livery debt of £30 and utterly reprehensible. But to then go to the trouble of loading the body onto a JCB, drive through a village street and dump the body in someone's front garden, in full knowledge that the neighbours, their children and any other poor sod that happened to be in the area at the time would see it? That shows a level of vindictiveness that goes way beyond the realms of normal thinking, it borders on psychotic.

I think there must be some way of dealing with this through the Public Order Act, if nothing else. His actions have caused alarm, fear and distress to many I would imagine. Whatever, he mustn't be allowed to get away with this - what will he do next if nothing is done? Even if it's only a loss to his business and livelihood rather than a jail term, I hope the local community will rally round to ensure that no-one does business with this complete and utter thug ever again.

 

[Alec Swan]

The other point which I've yet to see raised of course, is that his actions haven't actually recovered the £30 debt, have they? Assuming that he paid a licensed horse slaughterer probably £20-30 to actually turn out and put the animal down, then he's simply increased his losses, and that's additional to the risk of prosecution, of some form. Clearly, the man's an idiot, and not a very nice one.

Alec.

 

[fburton]

I'm not saying its justified, what he did. Only saying I can see why he did it. 30 pounds is a debt, the amount is irrelevant - a debt is a debt. And if he thought the debt was going to increase because she has a reputation for not paying, I can see why he would want to put a stop to that. Grass livery does cost him. It's a livery space that could be taken by a paying customer just as easily as a non paying customer.

Absolutely - and especially if that £30 was bringing him to the edge of bankruptcy (or pushing him over!).

Sorry, there is nothing whatever illegal about anyone, you or me included, shooting a horse as long as it is done humanely.

His crime is only criminal damage of a low value.

Is there a crime of performing a deed with the intention of inflicting mental cruelty on another person? I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

 

[saddlesore]

Absolutely - and especially if that £30 was bringing him to the edge of bankruptcy (or pushing him over!)

Lol!

 

[Dry Rot]

Under EU law and the Animal By Products Regulations dead livestock must be disposed of promptly and properly. The old Diseases of Dogs Act 1948 I think stated 48 hours but I am not sure if that is still in force. Disposal can be expensive as has been discussed on HHO from time to time. The owner of a pet can bury it on their own land subject to approval of the site by the environmental agencies. This horse did not belong to the landowner.

In the absence of any agreement to the contrary, I would have though that the person responsible for every day care, let alone proper disposal, would either be the loaner or the owner. I suspect the loaner in this case.

I am not siding with anyone. I think the YO has acted very stupidly but it is also irresponsible for an owner not to pay all fees relating to the welfare of their animals.

There are so many knobs and knurls to this story that it needs to be left to the courts. Journalists are notorious for making up quotes from the public and this is accepted if the quote is considered to be what the interviewee probably would have said anyway! How much can we believe? Newspapers thrive on controversy. I think it was Mark Twain who said the art of journalism is to upset half your readers every week. The skill comes in upsetting a different half each time!

 

[Dry Rot]

I forgot to add that the YO is probably in breach of the law for not having a waste carriers' licence! There will probably be other regulations involving the carrying of animal by products which might need inspections and licences.

https://www.gov.uk/waste-carrier-or-broker-registration

(…and, no, I am not a bureaucrat. Just one of their victims!)

 

[brucea]

Whatever the law does or doesn't do, I can hardly imagine that anyone wants to be a livery on his yard any more. He should be driven under, and his yard retain such a reputation that no liveries would even consider using him.

 

[shadeofshyness]

My thoughts are with the owner, loaner and other liveries. I hope they all manage to get off the yard as soon as possible. What a terrible situation.