Facebook - Horse shot by livery owner

[amandaco2]

Truely awful. Poor horse and owner

 

[cptrayes]

But someone paid the slaughter person to commit criminal damage

Yes but that's not a crime RM. His crime If there is one is causing criminal damage of someone else property. But the value of the horse is low, and the penalty will, if he is even found guiltywhich is not yet certain, be universally condemned as outrageously inadequate.

 

[bakewell]

But someone paid the slaughter person to commit criminal damage

Thing is, a firearms certificate is difficult to get hold of compared to a shotgun one, and they both need regular reissuing. By the same police force investigating this... it being a local matter. So that a horse was shot, in conjunction with threatening calls etc and possible criminal damage. I think that's going to cause some problems when it comes to reissuing that certificate.

Plus no-one in the locale will be happy there was a dead horse in a garden. It's not the sort of behaviour you want around your home is it?

 

[cptrayes]

Seriously???? I can't think that Kit's owners would agree with you on that comment!

It isn't my view.

It's the current law.

Unfortunately, the law currently takes no account whatsoever of the emotional value of animals to their owners. I think it's wrong, but it's how it is

The only way the poor owner is going to get any peace of mind is if his actions result in his business going bust. I hope she is coping and has support around her.

 

[Alec Swan]

And just because I was reading about it anyway

SECTION 59 OF THE POLICE REFORM ACT - ANTI SOCIAL DRIVING OFFENCES
New laws in respect of certain anti social driving offences can now be dealt with by Section 59 of the Police Reform Act.

Basically what that means is if you are seen:

Driving in a careless or inconsiderate manner
Driving on common land, a footpath or bridle way or any land which is not part of a road
Driving in a manner which is causing/has been causing, or is likely to cause alarm, distress or annoyance to members of the public


Surely driving around with a dead horse and dropping it in a garden would come under number 3. I am sure there are plenty of things they could use if they really wanted to prosecute.

Driving a Teleporter, on a Public Highway and with a dead horse in the bucket, would not constitute a criminal act.

Alec.

 

[Sebastian]

So many members here have said horses were dumped in their fields or owners behind in rent.

Can you expand on what you mean here?

 

[be positive]

I'm not saying its justified, what he did. Only saying I can see why he did it. 30 pounds is a debt, the amount is irrelevant - a debt is a debt. And if he thought the debt was going to increase because she has a reputation for not paying, I can see why he would want to put a stop to that. Grass livery does cost him. It's a livery space that could be taken by a paying customer just as easily as a non paying customer.

I agree with you he should have handled it differently. To take the horse lead it to the house and tie it to the gate would have got it off his land. Maybe he couldn't be bothered to do that :confused3:

I wonder if he will be prosecuted? Is it legal for a YO to shoot any horse that isn't suffering or even one who is suffering? If it was the YO who did it, that is. I would think that shooting a horse he doesn't own would only make the situation worse, if its a crime.

A debt of £30 is out of all proportion to the punishment for that small debt, if a business cannot run with a few debts of this type without resorting to violence then that business should be closed, there is no justification whatever for killing the horse even if the owner/ loaner in this case is known to be a bad payer.
The moving or loading attempt seems to have been in the evening suggesting to me they were trying to take the mare elsewhere for some reason probably not to the loaners home as it seems to be near enough to walk, maybe when she wouldn't load they lost patience and decided to finish the job.
If they get away with this it means that anyone who runs up a small debt needs to be very very careful about where they keep there horses.
I had a livery several years ago, I was warned by several people after she had arrived that she was dishonest, had bounced cheques in numerous places and to watch out, she didn't turn up to see to her horse, on DIY, it had no food hay or bedding so I took over its care, I tried phoning, left messages, sent a recorded delivery letter and started the ball rolling to take over ownership if she didn't come back. She eventually turned up with a "good excuse" and tried to remove the horse having conveniently forgotten her chequebook, I let her go and kept her rugs and other equipment until she came back with cash, she never came back, I was out of pocket but glad to see her gone, it would never have occurred to me that I could have shot the horse, I was more likely to shoot the owner!!

If they yard runs such a tight ship what I cannot understand is why they did not get a months livery upfront, she seems to have only been there for 3 weeks, most yards run a monthly account, either upfront or in arrears it is not clear which this was but then most of the story is unclear other than a horse was killed in very unusual circumstances.

 

[cptrayes]

A debt of £30 is out of all proportion to the punishment for that small debt, if a business cannot run with a few debts of this type without resorting to violence then that business should be closed, there is no justification whatever for killing the horse even if the owner/ loaner in this case is known to be a bad payer.
The moving or loading attempt seems to have been in the evening suggesting to me they were trying to take the mare elsewhere for some reason probably not to the loaners home as it seems to be near enough to walk, maybe when she wouldn't load they lost patience and decided to finish the job.
If they get away with this it means that anyone who runs up a small debt needs to be very very careful about where they keep there horses.
I had a livery several years ago, I was warned by several people after she had arrived that she was dishonest, had bounced cheques in numerous places and to watch out, she didn't turn up to see to her horse, on DIY, it had no food hay or bedding so I took over its care, I tried phoning, left messages, sent a recorded delivery letter and started the ball rolling to take over ownership if she didn't come back. She eventually turned up with a "good excuse" and tried to remove the horse having conveniently forgotten her chequebook, I let her go and kept her rugs and other equipment until she came back with cash, she never came back, I was out of pocket but glad to see her gone, it would never have occurred to me that I could have shot the horse, I was more likely to shoot the owner!!

If they yard runs such a tight ship what I cannot understand is why they did not get a months livery upfront, she seems to have only been there for 3 weeks, most yards run a monthly account, either upfront or in arrears it is not clear which this was but then most of the story is unclear other than a horse was killed in very unusual circumstances.

BP according to the papers the livery fees were due up front, they were requested several times and she is quoted as saying that she had no intention of paying except in arrears.

I agree that is no reason to shoot the horse.

 

[Kaida]

Are there no legalities around shooting the horse without the consent of the owner or would they say that he had taken "reasonable measures" to gain consent and had no confirmation for or against?

I agree - I'm sure a good lawyer/prosecutor could get them on many, many things if sufficiently motivated...

 

[jools68]

Seeing as one of the perpetrators has already very sadly been released without charge I can only hope that he spends the remainder of his miserable little life 'looking over his shoulder'... The RSPCA need to do the right thing for once , instead of sitting on the fence as they so often do ..... although knowing that outfit I suspect this won't happen.

 

[jojo5]

Apparently not, this morning it is being discussed that livery owners have to agree to this before they move onto the yard. If you owe any money they shoot the horse and deliver it to you. Apparently it is not the first time it has happened.

First time I have ever seen anything like that actually happen.

Poor poor owner and her kids, just shows you need to check out the place and contract very carefully before using these places

Of course this is a terrible thing, but are you really saying that owners actually agree to this when they go to the livery yard? Surely that cannot be true? Who would go there in that case?

 

[Moya_999]

Can you expand on what you mean here?

Over the past few years we have seen members on H&H write about liveries behind or wont pay their rent and asking fellow members what to do. Also some horses have been dumped on land belonging to members here. I thought I made myself clear, obviously not.....................

 

[rockysmum]

Of course this is a terrible thing, but are you really saying that owners actually agree to this when they go to the livery yard? Surely that cannot be true? Who would go there in that case?

The original Facebook thread last night, when it was all happening, had several other liveries from there on it. They said they were told (not sure if verbal or written) that this would happen if they didn't pay.

They also said that he has done this before. 3 gypsy cobs a few years ago were shot and the bodies returned to their owners. I believe they were owned by travellers so the police were not involved. No idea if it was true, but it has been mentioned a lot. Also there have been problems with some dogs, but not sure what. I just find it hard to believe that the RSPCA dont take these sort of things into account when paying a business for animal services.

 

[Goldenstar]

Yes but that's not a crime RM. His crime If there is one is causing criminal damage of someone else property. But the value of the horse is low, and the penalty will, if he is even found guiltywhich is not yet certain, be universally condemned as outrageously inadequate.

There are serval crimes that may have been committed here .
One is intimation, it is not legal to intimate people who owe you money .
It is not legal to damage someone else property because a third party owes you money .
I hope the horses owner is a person of enough financial resource to pursue the YOer
How ever I fear the loaner must bear some of the burden of blame she had paid her bill none of this would have happened .

 

[Renvers]

There is actually an argument, which he may well use in court, that he is required to return the 'property' to the owner. Though since he shouldn't have shot the horse in the first place, it is obviously an outrageous thing to have done.

A questionable defence as he has already effectively destroyed someone's property in what could be considered a disproportionate manner, the value of the debt being a fraction of the value of the property. Also DEFRA have rules about the disposal of fallen stock and ditching it in someone's garden is not in them, surely that needs to be addressed?

This is an awful and unacceptable action and my thoughts are with the owner and connections who have to deal with such a violent and unpleasant action. How could they trust a livery owner again?

 

[RaposadeGengibre]

Over the past few years we have seen members on H&H write about liveries behind or wont pay their rent and asking fellow members what to do. Also some horses have been dumped on land belonging to members here. I thought I made myself clear, obviously not.....................

Oh yeah... Now everyone knows the solution to this...

 

[Spring Feather]

Out of interest, and going off on a different tangent here; does the DM and Mirror pay for stories?

 

[EmmasMummy]

The RSPCA can't do anything to punish him. He has not committed any animal welfare crime. It is not illegal to shoot a horse.

So I could effectively hire a slaughterman, take him to afield, say the animal is mine and ask him to shoot it...and it is legal?

It says this here:http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/11538293.Horse_killed_and_dumped_in_garden___2_men_arrested/?ref=rss

Insp Colman said a police investigation had been launched and the RSPCA would assist, but it is not illegal to humanely kill a horse if the owner's permission has been sought.

 

[rockysmum]

So I could effectively hire a slaughterman, take him to afield, say the animal is mine and ask him to shoot it...and it is legal?

It says this here:http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/11538293.Horse_killed_and_dumped_in_garden___2_men_arrested/?ref=rss

Insp Colman said a police investigation had been launched and the RSPCA would assist, but it is not illegal to humanely kill a horse if the owner's permission has been sought.

Good point, the owner of the horse could have agreed to all this, including the return of the body to the loaner. Sounds very unlikely and then why would the police arrest anyone?

I do feel more sorry for the owner than the loaner to be honest. I cant imagine how they are feeling with pics of their dead horse all over national newspapers

 

[Moomin1]

So I could effectively hire a slaughterman, take him to afield, say the animal is mine and ask him to shoot it...and it is legal?

It says this here:http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/11538293.Horse_killed_and_dumped_in_garden___2_men_arrested/?ref=rss

Insp Colman said a police investigation had been launched and the RSPCA would assist, but it is not illegal to humanely kill a horse if the owner's permission has been sought.

Cpt is correct - if the horse has been shot outright and no suffering has occurred, then there is no animal welfare offence. A criminal damage offence may be an entirely different matter however.

 

[rubyrussell]

Havent read all posts but feel so sorry for horse, but does highlight that if having problems paying talk to yard owner and need ways that yard owner can move horses on of non payers, they are not charities.

 

[Renvers]

Good point, the owner of the horse could have agreed to all this, including the return of the body to the loaner. Sounds very unlikely and then why would the police arrest anyone?

I do feel more sorry for the owner than the loaner to be honest. I cant imagine how they are feeling with pics of their dead horse all over national newspapers

Quite aside from how tragic this is for the owner and loaner, I am reminded of all the stories on HHO of loans gone wrong and problem YO's/Liveries. It's like the ultimate nightmare thread become real

 

[flaxen]

Having seen the most recent pictures of the horses body and legs and seeing the head picture this morning has the horse been positively identified as the supposed horse in question. A dead bay mare with no obvious distinguishable markings will look like any other bay mare with no obvious distinguishable markings. The reason I'm saying this is having worked in equine vets for a long time and seen more horses shot and somulosed than I can remember the pictures I saw were of a horse that had been dead for a good period of time. The picture of the head showed a swollen tongue and that doesn't happen instantly and the body shot showed an already bloated animal. That doesn't happen in a few hrs unless the animal has been sick or toxic. Just a thought as its puzzling me.

 

[Goldenstar]

Out of interest, and going off on a different tangent here; does the DM and Mirror pay for stories?

I believe so.
But this story is on all the mainstream media I have just seen a report on the TV news .

 

[Dave's Mam]

What a mess. This person appears deranged. My major issues are the fact that it wasn't the debtor's property, and that they dumped her in a garden for all to see, children & adults alike. I have been near to tears at the thought of what I would do if I found a carcass in my garden, & I do not have children.
Hugs to loaner & owner, we ARE on your side.

 

[Savkins]

Having seen the most recent pictures of the horses body and legs and seeing the head picture this morning has the horse been positively identified as the supposed horse in question. A dead bay mare with no obvious distinguishable markings will look like any other bay mare with no obvious distinguishable markings. The reason I'm saying this is having worked in equine vets for a long time and seen more horses shot and somulosed than I can remember the pictures I saw were of a horse that had been dead for a good period of time. The picture of the head showed a swollen tongue and that doesn't happen instantly and the body shot showed an already bloated animal. That doesn't happen in a few hrs unless the animal has been sick or toxic. Just a thought as its puzzling me.

This is a good point but I would hope the loaner would know the horse well enough to identify it. I have three that look incredibly similiar, to people who don't know them they could be the same animal but I can instantly tell which is which. I wonder if the horse was killed earlier than stated and when the debt wasn't going to be paid then the horse was left. Or the horse is still alive somewhere and this is an horrific stunt to prove a point.

Whichever way this is an incredibly sad story.

 

[honetpot]

I have had ponies dumped on my land by a livery that wouldn't pay, and the land owner has a duty of care. To get the owner to move these ponies I had to serve her and eviction notice, or if she had stopped coming to see them an Abandonment notice, which I think last 14 days before you can do what you want with the animals. I was left with a bill for several hundred pounds apart from the aggravation. The landowner has taken the law into his own hands and it will be interesting to see what happens, if not a lot our local golf course could be very happy as there are several black and white ponies dumped on there.
I am sad that the horse is dead, lets just hope it was quick and no one should have to get up in the morning and see a dead animal in their garden, he must be some mean....... If I was the women I would get myself down to injury lawyers for you and sue him for distress and certainly she has suffered threatening behaviour. I read somewhere that she had signed a livery contract that allowed for its disposal but as she was not the owner she could not sign the owners rights away.

Again it makes the passport system look stupid, I have had several horses PTS and never asked for the passport, which in an ideal world should cost nothing to update, a bit like your cars log book, so no passport no PTS unless in an emergency.
As someone else has pointed out he has contravened DEFRA regulations for the disposable of animal waste/by products and as farmer he would be well aware of the regulations. The fallen stock man has to have sealed truck for transport so I doubt the local EHO would be happy with him trundling along the road with a dead horse on a low loader, the hunt truck leaked they got charged for cleaning the road by the council.

 

[flaxen]

I believe so.
But this story is on all the mainstream media I have just seen a report on the TV news .

This is a good point but I would hope the loaner would know the horse well enough to identify it. I have three that look incredibly similiar, to people who don't know them they could be the same animal but I can instantly tell which is which.

If you were in a state of shock which I would expect anyone in this situation to be would you be able to look closely enough to positively identify your horse. I suspect that seeing what's in front of you would be incredibly hard and you ( not you actually if that makes sense ) probably wouldn't be able to look for more than a few seconds.

As this horse was a ex racehorse she will be microchipped and have dna stored with wetherbys which will all prove her identity.

 

[Equi]

I hope the owner is getting a horse savvy lawyer. A normal one will only try to recoup the costs for the animal if that.

They should try hanna she's very good and fights for the rights of the horse. I'll ask if she's contacted the owners..
http://www.horsesolicitor.co.uk

 

[Liz H]

I'm not saying its justified, what he did. Only saying I can see why he did it. 30 pounds is a debt, the amount is irrelevant - a debt is a debt. And if he thought the debt was going to increase because she has a reputation for not paying, I can see why he would want to put a stop to that. Grass livery does cost him. It's a livery space that could be taken by a paying customer just as easily as a non paying customer.

I agree with you he should have handled it differently. To take the horse lead it to the house and tie it to the gate would have got it off his land. Maybe he couldn't be bothered to do that :confused3:

I wonder if he will be prosecuted? Is it legal for a YO to shoot any horse that isn't suffering or even one who is suffering? If it was the YO who did it, that is. I would think that shooting a horse he doesn't own would only make the situation worse, if its a crime.

No. Sorry. I can't see why he did it, nor will I ever.