Going to view a horse!

[Birker2020]

How old was Lari when you bought him.

He was 11 in the May 2021and I bought him in October of the same year.

He was advertised as £15,000 initially but I'd had my eye on him for a couple of weeks and asked the seller if she'd consider selling him for 12.5k as that was all the budget I had at the time.

He had been sold for £19,500 in 2016 as advert below. He'd been round Hickstead 5yr old qualifier class doing a double clear.

If you look on YouTube under Happy as Lari there are plenty of videos, one of the videos does feature the Hickstead round half way through an arena jumping video, or it was on there, not sure if it's been taken off now.

Unfortunately this video only came to light after I'd bought him. YOu can clearly see this strange right hind movement and it 'slip'. It's at 1.12 seconds or thereabouts.

Please note that Lambley House were not the people who sold him to me.

Sorry don't mean to hijack post OP

 

[eahotson]

He was 11 in the May 2021and I bought him in October of the same year.

He was advertised as £15,000 initially but I'd had my eye on him for a couple of weeks and asked the seller if she'd consider selling him for 12.5k as that was all the budget I had at the time.

He had been sold for £19,500 in 2016 as advert below. He'd been round Hickstead 5yr old qualifier class doing a double clear.

If you look on YouTube under Happy as Lari there are plenty of videos, one of the videos does feature the Hickstead round half way through an arena jumping video, or it was on there, not sure if it's been taken off now.

What happened to him between 2016 and when you bought him?It's just that there seems to be a lot of lame horses around and SI injuries seem to be getting common too.Is it the breeding?Backing? or schooling?

 

[Birker2020]

What happened to him between 2016 and when you bought him?It's just that there seems to be a lot of lame horses around and SI injuries seem to be getting common too.Is it the breeding?Backing? or schooling?

I'm not clear. The person who sold him me said she'd bought him from a dealer. There was a lady who had hunted him for two seasons and she said he'd been a really good hunter, she relayed this to a sales livery chap we knew after we ran into problems with him and I was 'reluctantly persuaded' to send him to sales livery with, I might add, full disclosure.

The woman who sold him me had a daughter that was 'heartbroken' that he was being sold despite the fact they had their own land. Excuse was she wanted the money to send her daughter to uni. Daughter was 'too upset' to ride him at viewings or ride him full stop - I completely understood this deception as I would have felt exactly the same. So they had employed a pro rider well known in the area. He had ridden Lari at the viewing and many weeks before too. I now strongly suspect the daughter had been thrown off or at very least lost her confidence on him, if he threw the shapes with her that he had with me and the pro rider I employed to get him rehabbed in a desperate bid to get him rideable and comfortable following all his vet intervention.

The pro rider 'confessed' he didn't like jumping, so only jumped 2ft 6 as did I, I believed him. I often wonder what Laz would have done had he been asked to jump 1.20m for example!

I've got to say at the end of the day, I'm glad it worked out how it did in one respect as I'd never have had the privilege of owning my Lari and loving him as much as I do.

 

[eahotson]

I'm not clear. The person who sold him me said she'd bought him from a dealer. There was a lady who had hunted him for two seasons and she said he'd been a really good hunter, she relayed this to someone who we knew.

The woman who sold him me had a daughter that was 'heartbroken' that he was being sold despite the fact they had their own land. She was 'too upset' to ride him at viewings or ride him full stop. So they had employed a pro rider well known in the area. He had ridden Lari at the viewing. I now strongly suspect the daughter had been thrown off or at very least lost her confidence on him, if he threw the shapes with her that he had with me and the pro rider I employed to get him rehabbed in a desperate bid to get him rideable and comfortable following all his vet intervention.

Seems likely doesn't it.Some people have no conscience.

 

[Birker2020]

Seems likely doesn't it.Some people have no conscience.

Yes. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[Birker2020]

Seems likely doesn't it.Some people have no conscience.

Yes. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[eahotson]

Yes. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Isn’t it just.I got done once too.Bouggt a little Highland off what I thought was a private sale.Before I even went to see him that I was a nervous rider and wanted something very steady.Pictures of handicapped son sat on him were sent.For some reason I didn't have him vetted, a mistake I have never made since.He turned out to be very spooky and often for no apparent reason.Previous owner traced and she had sold him on as he had scared her .With hind sight there were red flags all over the place.I sold him on via a selling agency and he did find a lovely permanent home but it turned out that he had cataract.I kept him for far too long and have always told myself when buying a new horse now that I would keep for 6 months and if we didn't suit then I would sell.

 

[Rowreach]

It’s interesting that on another thread people are advising someone not to buy a horse with a completely known history that requires further rehabbing after an injury, with a good veterinary prognosis, yet are willing to buy an obviously lame 4yo with an unknown history and stick it on a hill for a few months in the hope it will become magically not lame

Birker, you don’t take advice from me I know, but I remember the thread you had running before you found Lari, and how many people posted links on that thread to a range of completely crocked horses, along with comments of how “stunning” they were, and I didn’t comment then because there was no point, but I’m saying it now - most horse owners can’t spot an obvious mechanical lameness, let alone mild compromised movement, so fgs find one solid experienced and savvy person to help with your horse hunt, plus a really good equine vet for the PPI, and don’t rely on forum randomers for your next horse.

 

[Birker2020]

It’s interesting that on another thread people are advising someone not to buy a horse with a completely known history that requires further rehabbing after an injury, with a good veterinary prognosis, yet are willing to buy an obviously lame 4yo with an unknown history and stick it on a hill for a few months in the hope it will become magically not lame

Birker, you don’t take advice from me I know, but I remember the thread you had running before you found Lari, and how many people posted links on that thread to a range of completely crocked horses, along with comments of how “stunning” they were, and I didn’t comment then because there was no point, but I’m saying it now - most horse owners can’t spot an obvious mechanical lameness, let alone mild compromised movement, so fgs find one solid experienced and savvy person to help with your horse hunt, plus a really good equine vet for the PPI, and don’t rely on forum randomers for your next horse.

I hear you but it's not always easy to have a professional at hand. My mate who is a vet physio works all week and Saurdays too so is rarely free on her day off. I run past her any videos of possible horses but I expect she is getting fed up given I've been asking her for 2 years!

No vet would attend a viewing. They just don't do that.

My y.o came with me last time but again, in eventing season is rarely free as she has her own life. I don't know anyone else I could ask.

As for the PPI the horse I bought was 80 miles away so I had no way of knowing the vet practice would be insufficient. It was the middle of three quotes from three different practices so wasn't the cheapest and had good references.

Furthermore, I had gone on dodgy dealers and done due diligence in that respect.

I asked all the right questions. I even got the horses medical history but as we know that can be a total waste of time if the seller employs two vets.

I'd say my biggest mistake was buying privately. My others horses (6) were all from dealers and I'd had no misrepresentation from any of them.

Lari had a bad front foot with a significant fault line that ran parallel to the ground. My farrier said it was about 12 months prior to me owning him and he felt it had been caused by a significant over reach accident which may have contributed to his existing problems.

 

[Mrs. Glittery Jingle Balls]

If I might just add a small footnote, this is an interesting and informative thread started by Birker that I have followed from the beginning. I did not read it as the OP actually asking anyone on this forum if she should or should not buy a certain horse, more as an update on her search and to share thoughts and opinions.

I have only recently commented as I am not one of those marvellous horse people who can pick up the slightest inkling of a problem that they may or may not see on an advert or shared video clip. So my preferences and thoughts are of no benefit or value to Birker at all. But I will comment if I particularly like the look of a horse posted as I have done and I will also be very grateful to hear from people who's opinion I respect that can clearly point out to me any issues they might have spotted.

Please do not shut down people like myself, who cannot necessarily see an unsoundness or conformation issue (but conformation I am not too bad on) Don't stoop to ridiculing us, no matter how 'random' we might be, surely it is far more productive and useful for all of us to just politely point out what you might perceive to be an issue, and if interesting enough, to discuss it further. I really don't think Birker or anyone else would be stupid enough to buy or not buy her next horse based on the opinion of any of us, including those who are always certain they are right!

That is all, carry on as you were.

 

[IrishMilo]

This post isn't about anyone in particular so please no one take it that way. But there's a very fine line between being sensible, and weighing up on balance the pros and cons of a horse, vs. actively pointing out every single tiny issue that may or may not arise in future thanks to a niggle that may or may not be there when you haven't even seen it.

Vets are there for a reason - what happened to just going to look at a horse in the flesh, making an informed judgement based on what's in front of you and in various real life scenarios, and then using the professionals to help make your decision? There comes a point where you just have to accept that you might get shafted in future by one thing or another, but I mean really, who in the history of anyone who has ever owned a horse hasn't had something go wrong with it?

I understand wanting to mitigate big issues, but there is not one single horse on this planet that will be perfect in every possible way.

 

[PurpleSpots]

This post isn't about anyone in particular so please no one take it that way. But there's a very fine line between being sensible, and weighing up on balance the pros and cons of a horse, vs. actively pointing out every single tiny issue that may or may not arise in future thanks to a niggle that may or may not be there when you haven't even seen it.

Vets are there for a reason - what happened to just going to look at a horse in the flesh, making an informed judgement based on what's in front of you and in various real life scenarios, and then using the professionals to help make your decision? There comes a point where you just have to accept that you might get shafted in future by one thing or another, but I mean really, who in the history of anyone who has ever owned a horse hasn't had something go wrong with it?

I understand wanting to mitigate big issues, but there is not one single horse on this planet that will be perfect in every possible way.

I totally understand where you are coming from, but I think it's difficult when you get to a point that you have experienced things, and can see/feel/appreciate things that some vets can't. I mean look at SV and her ignorance to the clear expressions of discomfort and resistance even her own horses show. Just because a vet deems that a horse is fine it doesn't mean that the horse actually IS ok.

Should we keep quiet about what we can see, and just watch as others invest their money, time and heart into something we can see is likely to end in heartbreak for them and difficulties for the horse, or should we say something?

And should we keep quiet so that producers/dealers can keep on pushing horses too young and too quickly, because not everyone can appreciate what a detriment it is to the horse - often already showing signs of it? Especially as those things are usually glaringly obvious once they are pointed out.

 

[Rowreach]

If I might just add a small footnote, this is an interesting and informative thread started by Birker that I have followed from the beginning. I did not read it as the OP actually asking anyone on this forum if she should or should not buy a certain horse, more as an update on her search and to share thoughts and opinions.

I have only recently commented as I am not one of those marvellous horse people who can pick up the slightest inkling of a problem that they may or may not see on an advert or shared video clip. So my preferences and thoughts are of no benefit or value to Birker at all. But I will comment if I particularly like the look of a horse posted as I have done and I will also be very grateful to hear from people who's opinion I respect that can clearly point out to me any issues they might have spotted.

Please do not shut down people like myself, who cannot necessarily see an unsoundness or conformation issue (but conformation I am not too bad on) Don't stoop to ridiculing us, no matter how 'random' we might be, surely it is far more productive and useful for all of us to just politely point out what you might perceive to be an issue, and if interesting enough, to discuss it further. I really don't think Birker or anyone else would be stupid enough to buy or not buy her next horse based on the opinion of any of us, including those who are always certain they are right!

That is all, carry on as you were.

You are easily offended but my post was not intended to ridicule or shut down as you suggest, more born of utter frustration at seeing on many threads over the years, and not just Birker’s, how many posters encourage others to view and/or purchase horses when to some of us it is plainly obvious that there is a problem.

I don’t consider myself a “marvellous horse person” as you put it. Being able to spot subtle lamenesses and issues has been for me something of an unwelcomed skill and has cost me real life friends when they don’t like me pointing out problems. They generally go off and buy a problem anyway, or if it’s someone I’m teaching, they go and have lessons with someone else who either doesn’t see or doesn’t care that the horse isn’t right.

Frankly, if it’s obvious from a short video, I don’t need to see the actual horse.

Again, I wasn’t going to bother posting on this thread and I’ll leave you all to get on with it, much like I’ve done with the horse community in real life.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I'm not trying to be to be "harsh" here but myself and I few others could tell that Lari wasn't right based off of what was posted before he was purchased. I fully understand lstening to a vet and other professionals over some randos on HHO though. He was far too similar to my own crocked Warmblood, tbh. So maybe I was a bit sensitive to it.

I don't know how many truly and perfectly sound horses are out there based off of what I've seen on here and elsewhere. I can see why horse shopping can be exhausting.

I'm fine with backing a horse at 3, but I do believe that the ID many posted about has done too much for his age and size. Then again, mine has done too much for his age according to some too. I've never had ill results with how/when I start them in respect to longevity, but I get that it's relative in some ways.

 

[Mrs. Glittery Jingle Balls]

You are easily offended but my post was not intended to ridicule or shut down as you suggest, more born of utter frustration at seeing on many threads over the years, and not just Birker’s, how many posters encourage others to view and/or purchase horses when to some of us it is plainly obvious that there is a problem.

I don’t consider myself a “marvellous horse person” as you put it. Being able to spot subtle lamenesses and issues has been for me something of an unwelcomed skill and has cost me real life friends when they don’t like me pointing out problems. They generally go off and buy a problem anyway, or if it’s someone I’m teaching, they go and have lessons with someone else who either doesn’t see or doesn’t care that the horse isn’t right.

Frankly, if it’s obvious from a short video, I don’t need to see the actual horse.

Again, I wasn’t going to bother posting on this thread and I’ll leave you all to get on with it, much like I’ve done with the horse community in real life.

You are easily offended ......erm, am I? .. not sure how you have arrived at that conclusion from my post, but OKaaay.

I don’t consider myself a “marvellous horse person” as you put it. Well to be honest I wasn't calling you in particular a marvellous horse person no matter how much you perceive my post to be entirely directed at you, it was not. And it was a genuine comment, I do admire very much, anyone who can spot unsoundness on a couple of small video clips and wish I had that talent! I have not, I need to see in person with my own eyes and see ridden at all paces and run up in hand etc. before I could ever trust I had arrived at the right conclusion should I proceed with vetting or not bother. Hence why I am grateful if other posters, who can do so, enlightened me what exactly they are seeing that I am missing.

Not much point either of us saying anything else on the subject really is there?

 

[I'm Dun]

I think I can count on one hand the number of truly sound horses Ive met and that's out of thousands. For me being able to see something is off is a side effect of ADHD. Pattern recognition is a major skill for most people with the odd ADHD brain. Nice to have some useful skills in amongst all the crap!

 

[Birker2020]

I'm not trying to be to be "harsh" here but myself and I few others could tell that Lari wasn't right based off of what was posted before he was purchased. I fully understand lstening to a vet and other professionals over some randos on HHO though. He was far too similar to my own crocked Warmblood, tbh. So maybe I was a bit sensitive to it.

I don't know how many truly and perfectly sound horses are out there based off of what I've seen on here and elsewhere. I can see why horse shopping can be exhausting.

I'm fine with backing a horse at 3, but I do believe that the ID many posted about has done too much for his age and size. Then again, mine has done too much for his age according to some too. I've never had ill results with how/when I start them in respect to longevity, but I get that it's relative in some ways.

How many people actually said there was something wrong with Lari before I purchased him? ZERO.

How many people actually said they could tell there was something wrong with Lari after I purchased him. About FIVE TRILLION.

 

[ester]

tbf a handful of experienced posters did state their concerns pre purchase

 

[JenJ]

He was 11 in the May 2021and I bought him in October of the same year.

...

Sorry don't mean to hijack post OP

You ARE the OP

 

[Tiddlypom]

tbf a handful of experienced posters did state their concerns pre purchase

That’s my recollection, too.

I can think of one very astute HHOer in particular whose opinion is always worth listening to, she advised against. Not that there aren’t other very astute HHOers, but that one stuck in my mind.

 

[eahotson]

How many people actually said there was something wrong with Lari before I purchased him? ZERO.

How many people actually said they could tell there was something wrong with Lari after I purchased him. About FIVE TRILLION.

Have you got a trainer who would come with.Mine saved me from a couple of poor purchases.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

How many people actually said there was something wrong with Lari before I purchased him? ZERO.

How many people actually said they could tell there was something wrong with Lari after I purchased him. About FIVE TRILLION.

Are you sure about that? I can't recall, nor can I find the original thread, but I really thought that some things were said prior to the purchase. Not by many, though.

I mean, at this point it doesn't matter anyway, really.

 

[PurBee]

I am very grateful for this forum to teach what they see is wrong with a horse. I’m useless at spotting subtle lameness, but its when folk remark on a problem in a video or picture that i go back to see, and voila, then i see it.

It’s taught me to watch videos over and over and over. Mostly due to me watching with a zoomed-out perspective and not looking at details. First view i’ll be watching the head, 2nd view, the rider, 3rd view the hind end, 4th view the scenery in the video…types of trees etc!
I’ll see everything good, and not issues, unless they’re very obvious.
I’d definitely consult the forum for honest opinions as it’s the wealth of experience combined which will see what i, or a vetting, might not pick-up. The wealth of experience combined here is very valuable.

 

[Mrs. Glittery Jingle Balls]

Birker you have obviously been in the horse world for several years, do you have anyone you know, respect and trust that might agree to come along with you to any potential viewings as suggested up thread? If nothing else I always find it helpful just to bounce opinion off someone I know while watching the horse do it's bit with another rider? I was very fortunate that back in the day I had a very experienced close family member who could spot the tiniest hint of unsoundness, he always came with me and very quickly put me right when I got carried away with a wrong 'un.

Once I got older and could afford to lose a bit of money I started to trust myself more and make my own decisions, and through nothing more than good luck I only ever bought one really dodgy one. But the sort of money you will be spending, even if you have to pay a reputable professional to go with you it would be well worth it. I am not suggesting for one moment you would not know what you are doing, but a second opinion is always worth having IMO, especially when large sums of money are resting on it.

 

[ycbm]

How many people actually said there was something wrong with Lari before I purchased him? ZERO.

How many people actually said they could tell there was something wrong with Lari after I purchased him. About FIVE TRILLION.

You cannot imagine how many, many times I have kicked myself for assuming he would fail the vet and not PMing you. I was genuinely shocked when he didn't. The vet was either incompetent on that day or Lari was drugged on that day. He's known around here as a straight guy, I'm told, not one to have done anything crooked.

No vet would attend a viewing. They just don't do that.

They will certainly view videos.
.

 

[eahotson]

Birker you have obviously been in the horse world for several years, do you have anyone you know, respect and trust that might agree to come along with you to any potential viewings as suggested up thread? If nothing else I always find it helpful just to bounce opinion off someone I know while watching the horse do it's bit with another rider? I was very fortunate that back in the day I had a very experienced close family member who could spot the tiniest hint of unsoundness, he always came with me and very quickly put me right when I got carried away with a wrong 'un.

Once I got older and could afford to lose a bit of money I started to trust myself more and make my own decisions, and through nothing more than good luck I only ever bought one really dodgy one. But the sort of money you will be spending, even if you have to pay a reputable professional to go with you it would be well worth it. I am not suggesting for one moment you would not know what you are doing, but a second opinion is always worth having IMO, especially when large sums of money are resting on it.

I second that.Hard experience taught me to take someone a lot more knowledgeable than me with me.In my case it was my very experienced instructor who saved me from a couple of very unwise purchases.The other thing is not to fall in love with a horse until my instructor and vet said I could.The first 6 months I always regard as a bit of a trial anyway these days.

 

[Mrs. Glittery Jingle Balls]

I wonder if those who pointed out problems they thought they saw with Lari (which I have no knowledge of as I wasn't on here much at that time) had pm'd Birker with their thoughts instead of posting on threads might have been more helpful and constructive. It takes away the slight suggestion of promoting yourself as skillful and knowledgeable for the sake of forum plaudits rather than genuine wish to steer a possible buyer away from disaster?

I think some people will always take the public criticism of their choice of possible new horses as a pop at their expertise, or lack of. Just in case, I absolutely do not refer to your post ycbm, but it did set me thinking. For what it's worth I would always have welcomed your opinion on any horse I thought of buying even if I didn't agree with you!

Obviously if it is just a general post about a horse, not one seriously being considered for purchase as Lari was, then public discussion is always beneficial I think.

 

[ycbm]

Thanks Mrs J . I'm better than I was but I have and still could miss it in one of my own, especially in the hind end if you can't feel it when your on board.

The trouble I have now is seeing anything as sound. I visit a very big livery centre with lots of corners where you can hear the horses on concrete or tarmac before you see them. My goodness the sheer number with uneven footfall !
.

 

[eahotson]

Thanks Mrs J . I'm better than I was but I have and still could miss it in one of my own, especially in the hind end if you can't feel it when your on board.

The trouble I have now is seeing anything as sound. I visit a very big livery centre with lots of corners where you can hear the horses on concreteor tarmac before you see them. My goodness the sheer number with uneven footfall !
.

When I bought my little mare I said to the farrier that she had a lovely walk.He said "You know why?Because she is straight .Most of the other horses here are not."

 

[Tarragon]

I have just watched the Buster video and can see what you more knowledgeable spotted, and once seen, it seems so obvious! I do learn lots on this forum.
I can really appreciate that someone looking for a "performance" horse to ride wouldn't want to spend their money on something that can be seen to have an issue now, but Buster looks like such a kind horse, I would love someone to take a punt and leave him to mature and see what happens. The people at fault here are the ones trying to sell him and hoping to get away with it!