HHO's "Bear" project pony...

[doodle]

I think he must have been playing over the fence with another horse, reared and came down over fence then pulled back. He basically ripped/cheese wired a third of his hoof off. Stayed at the vets for a while. Then the pedal bone got infected. They operated and removed a third of the bone. The infection then came back and he was pts. I still panic when I see Robin chat over a fence. You definitely get affected by previous issues with horses.

Sorry my earlier post reads as if I had a horse have a GA. I was meaning that if that had happened to me like you I couldn’t do it again.

 

[scats]

What do people do with properly retired horses though? He can’t stay on a livery yard like this one, he would need to be out in a big herd on loads of acreage. But Boggle just loves human interaction, work and stimulation. He is never happier out on the hunting field or going off somewhere in the lorry and I know we can’t put our own emotions onto horses but I know he loves having a varied life. There was about three months last summer where he didn’t go anywhere or do anything other than quiet hacking and he genuinely got a bit flat in his personality and almost grumpy.

It’s just an awful thought for a horse like him.

You’d be surprised how easily they adapt once they are out and get a bit soft in condition. I’ve only had 1 in 30 years who didn’t cope well with retirement, but she was an old girl.

The welsh partbred I had actually stayed on the yard with me for the 12 years of his retirement (he retired at 6 after b*ggering a ligament). He was in the same routine as the others, aside from the riding. He just stuffed his face with a Haynet while the others worked, happy as larry. He still enjoyed being groomed and spending time with me and I kept that relationship with him, which was nice. My choice for not turning him away to retire was that when he became feral, he was a bit of a nightmare and I still like to be able to handle them when needed, which was impossible when he was left to his own devices.

You are a long way off that point anyway, but I suppose the only way to know how he would react would be to try it. I think once he had some mates who were staying out with him full time, he’d adapt.

 

[MuffettMischief]

So sorry to see your news. Try and get in touch with Andy Fiske Jackson at the RVC. He invented the diagnosis for Manica tears, injecting a dye into the tendon sheath and reading the results, it’s his ‘thing’ and he’s brilliant - contrast radiography, has your vet suggested this? I have just retired my 12 year old for this issue, she sounds a very similar character to boggle! We left her turned out for almost a year and it seemed to come right, then it wasn’t looking great again and she went up to RVC who couldn’t find a lameness so didn’t want to operate understandably. We then ran out of insurance. 4 weeks after she came home the leg was ‘up’ and although paddock sound, I wouldn’t want to ride or hunt her again so she is turned away. I didn’t think she would cope but she is loving life. Andy says that the very rarely come right without surgery so have a serious thing about it. Terrifying for you having already lost one under GA. hugs!

 

[Michen]

So sorry to see your news. Try and get in touch with Andy Fiske Jackson at the RVC. He invented the diagnosis for Manica tears, injecting a dye into the tendon sheath and reading the results, it’s his ‘thing’ and he’s brilliant - contrast radiography, has your vet suggested this? I have just retired my 12 year old for this issue, she sounds a very similar character to boggle! We left her turned out for almost a year and it seemed to come right, then it wasn’t looking great again and she went up to RVC who couldn’t find a lameness so didn’t want to operate understandably. We then ran out of insurance. 4 weeks after she came home the leg was ‘up’ and although paddock sound, I wouldn’t want to ride or hunt her again so she is turned away. I didn’t think she would cope but she is loving life. Andy says that the very rarely come right without surgery so have a serious thing about it. Terrifying for you having already lost one under GA. hugs!

Thanks. I’m quite shocked by how surgery does seem to be the “only” option for this specific injury. Have trawled through old threads and posts and am reading the same thing. Urgh

 

[splashgirl45]

sorry michen, i understand why you dont want an op, try and take one day at a time and re assess in a few months as that was the plan i believe. i retired my mare but she stayed at the yard and i continued to groom her etc and the only difference was that she didnt get ridden. when my friend rode, she stayed in the stable with hay and was turned out with her horse when she came back. if she had stayed comfortable i would have continued for ever. hope you manage to sort something out..

 

[KEK]

So sorry to hear this hard decision for you. Personally I would do the surgery and it makes more sense to do it now rather than when all the scar tissue has potentially been laid down incorrectly .. I would want to give him every chance to get back to full function. Easy to say when I'm not the one making the call, though. Good luck.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I think I would contact the specialist the other poster recommended I know a lot of people really rate him for lameness full stop then take it from there.

Your a long way off from retirement honestly I battled on for 2 years trying to get one sound, last resort was turn away for a year it didn't work but she had several things going on and bad scar tissue wasn't a candidate for surgery so we were basically at the end, you are nowhere near that yet you have options try not to worry too much and you have been a fantastic owner

 

[ycbm]

I'm not convinced from what you've written about the original diagnosis and the uncertainty as to how this latest injury was caused while on pen rest, that there is a full picture of what is going on in that leg. Ultrasound is a blunt diagnostic tool.

I'm concerned for you that you will be put through a whole heap of worry, expense and an emotionally and physically sapping rehab, only to find that something else goes wrong soon after.

In your shoes, I think I would be asking if it made sense for my remaining insurance funds to be spent on an MRI, then make a decision from there.

.

 

[milliepops]

I'm not convinced from what you've written about the original diagnosis and the uncertainty as to how this latest injury was caused while on pen rest, that there is a full picture of what is going on in that leg. Ultrasound is a blunt diagnostic tool.

I'm concerned for you that you will be put through a whole heap of worry, expense and an emotionally and physically sapping rehab, only to find that something else goes wrong soon after.

In your shoes, I think I would be asking if it made sense for my remaining insurance funds to be spent on an MRI, then make a decision from there.

.

My experience was that the US showed an incomplete picture and at surgery the injury was worse than expected (and therefore surgery was essential for satisfactory long term healing). i would be concerned about using up the budget with more diagnostics, if the likelihood is that surgery is still required to tidy up the structures which does seem to be the norm. Unless the manica is going to trigger a new claim.

 

[ycbm]

My experience was that the US showed an incomplete picture and at surgery the injury was worse than expected (and therefore surgery was essential for satisfactory long term healing). i would be concerned about using up the budget with more diagnostics, if the likelihood is that surgery is still required to tidy up the structures which does seem to be the norm. Unless the manica is going to trigger a new claim.

I was thinking of what the long term prognosis was for him returning to work and staying in one piece, MP. It might make the decision easier if an MRI showed it was unlikely to end anywhere but retirement anyway.

.

 

[Ceriann]

Huge sympathies with where you are with your boy. You are doing exactly what i would do and thinking ahead, options and worst case scenario. Ive spent best part of 15 months rehabbing minr for a medial branch injury (left hind), its incredibly hard, expensive (and we had no treatment) and time consuming. I did a pretty full work up and consequently got the full bad news - mainly feet (which i’ve also rehabbed). Her prospects of returning to proper work was considered poor and that plays on my mind a lot. I like you am hugely invested in my mare - i would put her through an op if it was her only realistic chance of recovery (and prospect of recovery was decent). If it helps, she came to me as a bit of a princess, more rugs than she could ever wear, brought in when it rained (and called if left out) and not used to herd t/o. Shes now out most of the time, rarely rugged and with my two others. They can adapt in most cases.

 

[Michen]

I was thinking of what the long term prognosis was for him returning to work and staying in one piece, MP. It might make the decision easier if an MRI showed it was unlikely to end anywhere but retirement anyway.

.

I don’t think I’d spend the money on an MRI. I have about 500 quid left on the insurance, half of which will he used on another scan in two weeks. If I’m going to spend any money I’d probably rather do the op.

The op does seem to (MP I know yours re injured) have a really high success rate, not just initially either but it not causing an issue for the horse again and then remaining in full work. But obviously we are combining this with another initial injury that also had a guarded prognosis.

I do still think though, whatever he did to do the new thing, it’s a good sign it didn’t re injure the “old” thing as that would surely have been a prime opportunity. So it must be a little robust at least...

Anyway in happier news Boggles jockey came to ride Bear today. He looked absolutely amazing, so flashy and she had him going brilliantly very quickly. A good investment into his education I think!

He finished still full of beans but has since been snoozing. He’s also now in a stable next to Bog which is rather cute.

 

[Michen]

Thanks everybody. Really appreciate all your thoughts and comments, I am taking them all in!

It just seems madness that what started off as an injury so subtle it was almost impossible to know there was an issue, to wondering whether he will ever even be hackable again. How things have gone downhill so quickly I do not know.

 

[milliepops]

it does seem to be generally a successful procedure and I very much doubt Millie would be galloping round the field sound now, if we hadn't done it, i think the frayed bits would have just kept getting inflamed. I probably could have brought her back to work because it was a fairly minor setback but by then I'd sort of lost the will to keep trying as it was just the last of a long line of field injuries, and as a hindleg was going to come under increased pressure with canter piris, half steps etc.

 

[Michen]

it does seem to be generally a successful procedure and I very much doubt Millie would be galloping round the field sound now, if we hadn't done it, i think the frayed bits would have just kept getting inflamed. I probably could have brought her back to work because it was a fairly minor setback but by then I'd sort of lost the will to keep trying as it was just the last of a long line of field injuries, and as a hindleg was going to come under increased pressure with canter piris, half steps etc.

Do you think she wouldn’t have been field sound!? That didn’t really occur to me. He’s 4/10 lame at trot with it at the moment.

 

[AnShanDan]

Really sorry you're facing this, it is such a rubbish situation. I just wanted to add that I have three horses and 2 of them have had GAs, one of them twice. All were planned ops to "well" horses, two legs and one ex lap. All of them were text book successes with no complications or issues. Vets at my local vet college said that if you exclude the emergencies (colic and others), the mortality is a lot less than 1%.
Only you can decide, good luck.

 

[milliepops]

I think it would have settled and flared up repeatedly, that's what they told me afterwards. Because you can't tell them to only toddle around the field nicely so they don't hurt themselves, I think the same thing that would have flared up with work would have done with any field hooleys (she did it in the field in the first place). Millie loves zipping round the field

 

[Michen]

I think it would have settled and flared up repeatedly, that's what they told me afterwards. Because you can't tell them to only toddle around the field nicely so they don't hurt themselves, I think the same thing that would have flared up with work would have done with any field hooleys (she did it in the field in the first place). Millie loves zipping round the field

So does Boggle. He's a busy busy horse. Oh fml, it didn't occur to me he could be lame in the field. Panic mode here My vet did actually say these tears can be very painful.

URGH.

 

[milliepops]

well i wouldn't panic, but i would quiz the vet next time you speak to them about prognosis if you don't want to go for it, probably the time to get all those questions out in the open so you are making a fully informed decision. for me, the worry that she might have persistent issues from it overrode my fear of the GA. (nothing to lose, kind of thoughts).

 

[Michen]

well i wouldn't panic, but i would quiz the vet next time you speak to them about prognosis if you don't want to go for it, probably the time to get all those questions out in the open so you are making a fully informed decision. for me, the worry that she might have persistent issues from it overrode my fear of the GA. (nothing to lose, kind of thoughts).

Yup I didn't ask. I just assumed he would be fine in the field. I didn't ask many questions because although he was not happy with what he found, he seemed relatively positive it would "settle" quickly. He even said assuming Boggle was pretty sound after two weeks, he'd like the walking to be ramped back up again and re commence to normal levels fairly quickly. So I sort of felt it couldn't be that big of a problem and was more of a really disappointing set back. It didn't even occur to me at the time it was something that may need surgery to fix. Of course Boggle being a lunatic the morning the vet came back to assess is somewhat frustrating as we couldn't really then get a true picture.

If he's going to be having flare ups in the field that make him 4/10 lame that puts a very different spin on things.

 

[ycbm]

It just seems madness that what started off as an injury so subtle it was almost impossible to know there was an issue, to wondering whether he will ever even be hackable again. How things have gone downhill so quickly I do not know.

That's horses for you

.

 

[MuffettMischief]

I don’t think I’d spend the money on an MRI. I have about 500 quid left on the insurance, half of which will he used on another scan in two weeks. If I’m going to spend any money I’d probably rather do the op.

The op does seem to (MP I know yours re injured) have a really high success rate, not just initially either but it not causing an issue for the horse again and then remaining in full work. But obviously we are combining this with another initial injury that also had a guarded prognosis.

I do still think though, whatever he did to do the new thing, it’s a good sign it didn’t re injure the “old” thing as that would surely have been a prime opportunity. So it must be a little robust at least...

Anyway in happier news Boggles jockey came to ride Bear today. He looked absolutely amazing, so flashy and she had him going brilliantly very quickly. A good investment into his education I think!

He finished still full of beans but has since been snoozing. He’s also now in a stable next to Bog which is rather cute.


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if they do think it’s a Manica injury, I would be tempted to ask them to do the contrast radiography instead as it’s the only way to see it. An ultrasound won’t show it, then get them to send to Andy for a look. It might be a better way to spend what you have left

 

[Michen]

if they do think it’s a Manica injury, I would be tempted to ask them to do the contrast radiography instead as it’s the only way to see it. An ultrasound won’t show it, then get them to send to Andy for a look. It might be a better way to spend what you have left

But we can see it? It was found on ultrasound. Or do you mean the extent of it?

 

[Michen]

That's horses for you

.

I seem to have a particularly poor track record with broken horses. Poor Bear will be hoping for a sale!

 

[SEL]

I seem to have a particularly poor track record with broken horses. Poor Bear will be hoping for a sale!

I know that feeling! Now wondering if that's why the new pony keeps trying to escape from the field....

 

[Michen]

Urgh Boggle is trying to kill me. Just went completely mental in the field for no reason. He’s just such a bloody idiot, how can the tear possibly look better on scan when he’s doing stuff like that.

Bear just looked at him like he was a total moron and I agree.

 

[ycbm]

I seem to have a particularly poor track record with broken horses. Poor Bear will be hoping for a sale!

Don't beat yourself up, I lost one a year for three years in 2011/2/3

.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Max was retired and Ginny put down in the same year. Now Amber is lame too. It's shite but it's just horses. Before that I'd gone years without any horse having a problem. Thinking of you xxx

 

[doodle]

Just horses. I lost 2 in 7months.

 

[Michen]

Well I discussed with ex (vet) OH today. Good to get an off the record second opinion although he’s not seen the scans. His good friend is also part owner of a large referral hospital and they have spoken to their surgeon who specialises in the tenoscopy procedures and I have his number to discuss with him tomorrow.

I have a lot to think about. I can’t see how the scan will show an improvement whilst he’s being turned out. I’m going to gather as much info as I can and see.

Now I may need to think seriously about selling Bear to pay for Boggle- I REALLY don’t want to sell Bear ?. Oh what a funny rollercoaster of emotions eh.