Horse being hit around the head

[Pearlsasinger]

For goodness sake @ycbm, no hunters have excused the behaviour! You have literally just said that you have done similar: 'I've done as bad myself...' So if it was good enough a strategy for you (even if you have learnt better and alternative strategies now) why on earth would you think that everyone else would be 'better' than you?

Has your behaviour ever shocked, offended or upset anyone? Have you ever done anything to damage someone else's enjoyment of something?

Just saying...

ETA - just in case you are not clear I certainly have not condoned, excused or contextualised this woman's behaviour to 'sanitise' her hitting and kicking a horse. I have said that it is appalling. I expect when you had 'done as bad' there was a reason. It still didn't justify it but you at least know what that reason was. This woman will have had a reason, not a justification or excuse but a reason.

I simply cannot imagine any circumstance in which I would contemplate kicking a horse in the chest, or indeed, anywhere else. Nor have I ever hit a horse about the head. IMHO no-one who cannot control their temper should be around animals at any point in their life.

ETA, I have seen comparable behaviour on a livery yard, where a teenager kicked her pony in the stomach - I intervened immediately. Later the YO asked me not to dob so again. I explained that I was not going to wait until I could report that kind of behaviour to him, or the child's parents, when I could actually stop what was happening in the instant. I have also reported unacceptable behaviour to Show Secretaries and to Auction Offices, in my time. Such behaviour is never acceptable imo but that doesn't mean that I don't question the veracity of a report. There have been previous instances or inaccurate reports about hunt supporter behaviour.

 

[Caol Ila]

I don't understand where every one is seeing this all the time on livery yards and shows?

I've seen it once on a livery yard and I intervened. I'm also a riding club official steward and we take any form of abuse very seriously and have actions and sanctions that we take if that happens.

As an aside sabs do also go to a lot of other animal rights events. A lot of the sabs around my way protest at MBR beagles and covance for animal testing, they also protest at slaughter houses etc.

Awful behaviour but in about 25 years of horse ownership, I have seen it twice in livery yards. Once was in the States, and the perp was an instructor who started beating up on her horse for not standing still. I was about 15, so didn’t do a whole lot other than be horrified. Second time was in the UK; a livery had trouble catching her horse and once she caught him, she brought him down to the barn and started whaling on him with the end of her rope. Myself and another livery screamed at her to stop, which she did.

These were not normal for yards/boarding stables and I hope the video isn’t normal for hunting.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Palo1 you should be ashamed of yourself for thinking it’s acceptable behavior and if you’re so worried about hunting being banned then hunts should take some responsibility for their actions. I have seen awful behavior from the uk hunts . Something you wouldn’t see in Ireland .

I am sure that Palo1 can speak for herself but just incase she doesn't, she very definitely did not say that it's acceptable behaviour.

 

[millikins]

Whilst I'm not trying to condone hitting the horse in these circumstances, why were sabs filming this? I thought their presence at hunt meets was to gain evidence of unlawful hunting?

 

[Jellymoon]

This was horrible to see, I think because it was done so casually in front of other people and kids. This is that woman’s normal, and that I find upsetting. I have seen this kind of behaviour before on yards, sometimes from professional riders, who then teach other people, and so it goes on. I’ve never done anything as bad as this, but I was definitely rougher with my horses in the past, when I was taught by such people. I’m firm when I need to be, they are big dangerous animals and need boundaries, but I never find I need to kick them or slap them repeatedly round them face.
It just needs to stop. No, it’s not the worst thing that can happen to a pony, but it’s just not acceptable. And it’s tarring us all with the same brush.
Yes, I hunt, but no, I don’t don’t do this to my horses or my dogs. Violence does not run through me. And I don’t have any friends that do either, and I don’t use any horse professionals that behave like this.

 

[palo1]

Palo1 you should be ashamed of yourself for thinking it’s acceptable behavior and if you’re so worried about hunting being banned then hunts should take some responsibility for their actions. I have seen awful behavior from the uk hunts . Something you wouldn’t see in Ireland .

Where have I ever said it was acceptable behaviour? I absolutely haven't said that!!

 

[Steerpike]

And it has just been on the BBC news.

 

[Sandstone1]

Whilst I'm not trying to condone hitting the horse in these circumstances, why were sabs filming this? I thought their presence at hunt meets was to gain evidence of unlawful hunting?

Of course someone would film it! Its animal abuse! My God, can you blame sabs for anything else! They were there so of course they would film it if they saw it. Only pro hunters could blame sabs for filming animal abuse. It the idiot woman who should be slated for doing it not sabs for filming it!

 

[scats]

I don't understand where every one is seeing this all the time on livery yards and shows?

I've seen it once on a livery yard and I intervened. I'm also a riding club official steward and we take any form of abuse very seriously and have actions and sanctions that we take if that happens.

As an aside sabs do also go to a lot of other animal rights events. A lot of the sabs around my way protest at MBR beagles and covance for animal testing, they also protest at slaughter houses etc.

I’ve seen a horse hit around the head twice on livery yards in over 30 years. Both times I intervened. Both were late teens, full of attitude when I confronted them. One hasn’t spoken to me for 20 years as a result. She was smacking it over the head with a whip. Vile creature.

The other one, I confronted her and then spoke to her mum, who thanked me for telling her. Kid was 16/17 at the time, but was a major brat and had a temper like I’ve never seen before.

 

[Red-1]

I was horrified at the woman's actions. However, I am more horrified that someone has taken a close up photo of her young daughter and posted it on FB. Whatever happened, it wasn't the girl's deal, and she should not be punished.

If she were my child, I would be beside myself.

I also think that the hunt would benefit from telling the woman that she was not welcome at any meets for the rest of the season. I doubt the sabs would make it worth her while going anyway.

 

[Ceriann]

It’s certainly getting a lot of coverage now - BBC Breakfast and 1 million views on YouTube. If it at least encourages others to get a grip of their temper before doing something like this it will have served a purpose. Behaviour like this, which also seems incredibly casual and normal, is just not ok.

 

[PapaverFollis]

I think the actions of the woman to the pony are very wrong.

I think social media witch hunts are sick. Especially if they involve children.

I've been essentially chucked off livery yards for intervention when seeing horses being handled in this kind of way. It never made anything better for the horse involved but it f****d up MY horses' well-beings for a while. (For those that can't believe people have seen worse elsewhere. Yes I have. Yes I intervened. Yes it made things very difficult for me and almost certainly made nothing any better for the horse involved.)

If someone had genuine concern for the horses that belong to this woman then they could send the video to WHW or RSPCA privately. Making it a public witch-hunt is motivated by something else other than concern for her horse.

 

[Clodagh]

Of course someone would film it! Its animal abuse! My God, can you blame sabs for anything else! They were there so of course they would film it if they saw it. Only pro hunters could blame sabs for filming animal abuse. It the idiot woman who should be slated for doing it not sabs for filming it!

It’s more why they filming in the first place and it is because it is an intimidation tactic. They were deliberately filming a child, which in any arena other than the hunting field would be illegal. In the hunting field it is standard practice.

 

[palo1]

I was horrified at the woman's actions. However, I am more horrified that someone has taken a close up photo of her young daughter and posted it on FB. Whatever happened, it wasn't the girl's deal, and she should not be punished.

If she were my child, I would be beside myself.

I also think that the hunt would benefit from telling the woman that she was not welcome at any meets for the rest of the season. I doubt the sabs would make it worth her while going anyway.

Absolutely agree with you.

 

[Tiddlypom]

People on the periphery are being told that hunting promotes horse abuse, all hunts are smokescreens, all riders who go hunting are nasty posh upper-class lying sadists, all hunting should be totally banned etc etc and they're not even questioning it. They're just jumping on a bandwagon.

I agree, but hunting keeps coming up with yet more material which backs up all those views, doesn't it?

The smokescreen evidence has been used to convict the director of the Master of Foxhounds Association, along with very damning comments from the judge as he gave the verdict. I'm not in the slightest bit surprised that many people think that all hunting is a front for fox hunting - why wouldn't they? They feel that they can't believe a word that the hunting fraternity say.

The Cottesmore statement was the absolute minimum they could say in response, it's not to be applauded. Remember also that the Cottesmore supplied two hunt masters as character witnesses for Mark Hankinson's defence, and the prosecution completely tied them up in knots over the case of the Cottesmore terrier man who was convicted of digging up a badger sett in 2015 on a hunting day, and whether he was still employed by the hunt (it turned out that he is). It made them look decidedly dodgy, at best.

I think there will be a lot of support in the general population for the sabbing of shooting, legal or not. I don't doubt that it will happen at some point.

There is plenty of material on the main hunt saboteurs FB page showing that sab groups have already moved onto shooting in some areas. Shooting, if it went, would not be missed by many members of the public who are not directly involved in it. ETA To be clear, I do not approve personally of the sabbing of a legal activity, even though I personally dislike shooting.

Whilst I'm not trying to condone hitting the horse in these circumstances, why were sabs filming this? I thought their presence at hunt meets was to gain evidence of unlawful hunting?

They'll have been filming all the hunt's activities on the day in case it shows something which may be useful to them later. It's what they do.

In this case, they struck pure gold when looking for something to even further discredit hunting in the eyes of the public - the foul tempered woman played right into their hands.

 

[Regandal]

Leaving the incident aside, why are they allowed to film children?

 

[Goldenstar]

A transgression? She kicked and hit the horse . Absolutely no excuse whatsoever.
Seriously disappointed in your response .

And I did not say there was any excuse.
She should not have done it .
But this online hounding of people is not acceptable and it used to be a safe place on here.
A few weeks ago it was Lucinda Green who was getting a kicking on here and I thought a lot of the comments there where seriously out of order.
Comments like hunt her down which up the thread are sickening .

 

[palo1]

Purely in response to the comments about sabbing shooting, does no-one commenting here worry about that? Shooting is entirely legal and it not only employs a considerable number of people and brings money into the economy but also has a very direct relationship to the maintenance of land for that activity. Several shoots, including grouse moorland have received prestigious conservation awards so they are not quite the villains that some would have them painted. Shooting probably has learnt lessons from huntings mistakes and there is a real conversation about the issues which bother people around shooting.

Why on earth would anyone be happy to see vigilantes disrupting shooting?

I understand the arguments about cruelty to birds and poor management etc but is there really an appetite for vigiliantism as a political tool in the UK? It has worked to discredit hunting but that is more of minority interest that shooting, racing and farming will be. Surely people don't want more of this kind of conflict???

I don't necessarily want to disrupt this thread but as so many are commenting it does feel relevant.

 

[ester]

Leaving the incident aside, why are they allowed to film children?

public place?

 

[shortstuff99]

It is not illegal to film children in public unless it is indecent. Unfortunately they haven't broken any laws.

 

[ester]

it used to be a safe place on here.
.

It has never been a 'safe place' here.

 

[palo1]

Leaving the incident aside, why are they allowed to film children?

They are not, but they do. When I requested that a masked, be-camera'ed sab not film my 13 year old child (who was not on a horse or in hunting clothing but on foot, attending a neighbouring meet) I was ignored and then, when asked again, told that they were not filming him but filming vehicles. Aggressive and intimidating doesn't even begin to cover that experience...I was very upset particularly as we had done nothing whatsoever to warrant being filmed and the sabbing/monitoring that day concluded that the hunt had followed trails.

 

[palo1]

It is not illegal to film children in public unless it is indecent. Unfortunately they haven't broken any laws.

It is illegal to film children and publish those images without permission.

 

[ester]

citation please

 

[palo1]

citation please

The first one I could find is from Surrey County Council:

'The Data Protection Act 1998 affects our use of photography. This is because an image of a child is personal data for the purpose of the Act and it is a requirement that consent is obtained from the parent of a child or young person under the age of 18 years for any photographs or video recordings for the purposes beyond the activity of the organisation. It is also important to ascertain the views of the children or young people involved... Where children are Looked After organisations must check consent with the Social Worker on the corporate parent’s behalf. Consent gained for photographs or videos may not extend to website or webcam use so it is important to check the status of existing consent...'

In more detail: https://ico.org.uk/for-organisation...ch-to-processing-children-s-personal-data-be/

There is absolutely an issue of consent, of potential harm/damage and of management of images of children.

 

[ycbm]

And I did not say there was any excuse.

This looked like a pretty supportive comment GS. I'm not sure how we were supposed to interpret it as anything else.

Worked though the little monkey loaded .

 

[Tiddlypom]

The antis (or at least the monitors as opposed to sabs) in these parts IMHO quite rightly blur out the faces of any minors who appear in any footage of hunts that they publish online.

 

[shortstuff99]

Yet this says it is not https://www.anncrafttrust.org/is-it-illegal-to-take-a-picture-of-a-child-or-young-person-under-18/

 

[Dizzy socks]

Purely in response to the comments about sabbing shooting, does no-one commenting here worry about that? Shooting is entirely legal and it not only employs a considerable number of people and brings money into the economy but also has a very direct relationship to the maintenance of land for that activity. Several shoots, including grouse moorland have received prestigious conservation awards so they are not quite the villains that some would have them painted. Shooting probably has learnt lessons from huntings mistakes and there is a real conversation about the issues which bother people around shooting.

Why on earth would anyone be happy to see vigilantes disrupting shooting?

I understand the arguments about cruelty to birds and poor management etc but is there really an appetite for vigiliantism as a political tool in the UK? It has worked to discredit hunting but that is more of minority interest that shooting, racing and farming will be. Surely people don't want more of this kind of conflict???

I don't necessarily want to disrupt this thread but as so many are commenting it does feel relevant.

I don’t really support vigilantism in any guise, but do think opening more of a conversation about shooting would not be a bad thing.

I personally find a hell of a lot of it incredibly unpleasant, and I say this having grown up rurally, and spent summers working full time on a shooting estate. Treatment of gun dogs in particular is often completely appalling, and this is viewed as normal. And no, I’m not saying this is everyone, but tbh I have seen very few people who wouldn’t at the very least give a dog a quick kick. There is a notion within shooting that even where treatment of dogs is clearly disgraceful - i.e leads to death of a dog, that it should be swept under the rug, so as not to give anti-shoot any ammunition. On the positive side, leaving cover around fields etc benefits other wildlife. Conversely, I strongly dislike the way in which management of the land is seemingly almost entirely for the preservation of pheasants - and no, I don’t think this benefits wildlife in general, any benefit is incidental. Sorry, this has almost turned into a rant, and perhaps my experience of shooting is not the norm, but it is reasonably extensive. Whilst I don’t disagree with shooting animals, I don’t believe that shooting as a sport has it’s house in order in the slightest.

 

[ihatework]

Yet this says it is not https://www.anncrafttrust.org/is-it-illegal-to-take-a-picture-of-a-child-or-young-person-under-18/

The nuisance is in the publishing of the photo and the intent behind it.

The abuse incident aside, if I was the mother of that child I would be doing my utmost to have my child’s image removed and would be using every legal route possible to do so