Horse being hit around the head

[Upthecreek]

You've misunderstood me I think. Hunting is in the spotlight because of the way that there has been so much controversy both historically and currently about it as an activity - regardless of illegal hunting reports and convictions which have been high profile and shocking for many people. Increasingly people are questioning our relationship with and behaviour toward animals - particularly where field sports/country sports etc are concerned. There is a lobby against all of those activities (hunting, shooting, fishing) because they are not seen as essential and are seen as 'cruel'. There is also a lobby against animal farming and increasingly against meat eating and pet owning.

The very existence of any of those things, is for some people, abhorrent and that lobby is effective in their communications and very noisy and attractive to the media . That kind of discussion sells in spite of the huge contradictions in all manner of ways.

I don’t think I misunderstood you. There can be a lobby against all manner of activities we do with animals. As long as the activity you are participating in is legal, you have nothing to fear if you are not filmed punching and kicking your horse/dog/farm animal. If that vile woman had not been caught on camera doing that to her horse there would be no story, no spotlight and no negative publicity.

 

[palo1]

I don’t think I misunderstood you. There can be a lobby against all manner of activities we do with animals. As long as the activity you are participating in is legal, you have nothing to fear if you are not filmed punching and kicking your horse/dog/farm animal. If that vile woman had not been caught on camera doing that to her horse there would be no story, no spotlight and no negative publicity.

Ok but certainly in the context of trail hunting there would be considerable interest in creating a story that discredits hunting. Shooting is an entirely legal activity with no restrictions on it at all at the moment but that doesn't mean that there isn't increasing conflict between anti hunting and shooting groups and people carrying out those entirely legal activities.

In any case there is no place anywhere for the behaviour of this woman - legal, illegal, dressage, hunting, showing, at a livery yard, natural horsmanship training or anywhere else.

 

[Nancykitt]

I am delighted that the HO and the Cottesmore hunt have made it clear that this behaviour cannot be excused. I hope that message has been received loud and clear wherever it might be needed too.

Just read some posts and it doesn't seem to be going down well. The HO apparently commented that she was not a member of any of the 'hunting associations' and this has been misinterpreted by many, who are now screaming that they are all lying because she has been photographed out with the Cottesmore in the past. Sadly, some people have just made up their minds and it's not easy to reason with them.

I don’t think I misunderstood you. There can be a lobby against all manner of activities we do with animals. As long as the activity you are participating in is legal, you have nothing to fear if you are not filmed punching and kicking your horse/dog/farm animal. If that vile woman had not been caught on camera doing that to her horse there would be no story, no spotlight and no negative publicity.

I'm not sure about this. It's clear from the reaction on SM that there is a massive amount of mistrust when it comes to hunting. I used to go out with a bloodhound pack hunting the clean boot but I can't convince anti-hunt people that bloodhounds don't rip foxes apart. I actually never saw any illegal activity in all the years I was hunting - but I do know that some packs behaved in an unacceptable way.
There is a strong feeling that absolutely every 'legal' hunt is a smokescreen and all are breaking the law - and they are using this to try and get hunting of any kind (including drag hunts and bloodhound packs) banned totally.

 

[millikins]

It's dreadful behaviour from a bad horsewoman, we've all seen similar in many situations at yards or competitions. The fact it was filmed at a hunt meet does not mean that all hunting should now be banned.
I'd like to see sabs turn their cameras on to really nasty animal abuse, dog fighting, badger baiting etc, that would convince me that their aim is animal welfare and not class warfare.

 

[ycbm]

Can you identify those posts - I have just re-read the thread and cannot find anyone who has excused that behaviour?

I started a list of the number of posts that have elements that appear to excuse or partially excuse this behaviour, especially when you look at who has liked them, but I gave up because there were so many.

Goldenstar's posts stood out as defending the woman and appeared to suggest that the kick and hitting had produced a positive result, and have you really no awareness of how your own post about how sabs may have made her angry reads?
.

 

[ycbm]

The fact it was filmed at a hunt meet does not mean that all hunting should now be banned.

No of course it doesn't but it frustrates the hell out of me, since I want to trail hunt, that many hunting people seem so blind to the fact that in the social media age whether it should is irrelevant and whether it will is everything.
.

 

[Nancykitt]

It's dreadful behaviour from a bad horsewoman, we've all seen similar in many situations at yards or competitions. The fact it was filmed at a hunt meet does not mean that all hunting should now be banned.
I'd like to see sabs turn their cameras on to really nasty animal abuse, dog fighting, badger baiting etc, that would convince me that their aim is animal welfare and not class warfare.

I can't disagree with you, there is so much that activists could be focusing on...but these people are totally fixated on hunting and I can't see a way to change that. We all know that the fact it was filmed at a hunt met does not mean that all hunting should be banned. But the antis don't see it like that and sadly this incident has become very useful to them. People on the periphery are being told that hunting promotes horse abuse, all hunts are smokescreens, all riders who go hunting are nasty posh upper-class lying sadists, all hunting should be totally banned etc etc and they're not even questioning it. They're just jumping on a bandwagon.

 

[mini_b]

I'd like to see sabs turn their cameras on to really nasty animal abuse, dog fighting, badger baiting etc, that would convince me that their aim is animal welfare and not class warfare.

absolutely

 

[Upthecreek]

Just read some posts and it doesn't seem to be going down well. The HO apparently commented that she was not a member of any of the 'hunting associations' and this has been misinterpreted by many, who are now screaming that they are all lying because she has been photographed out with the Cottesmore in the past. Sadly, some people have just made up their minds and it's not easy to reason with them.



I'm not sure about this. It's clear from the reaction on SM that there is a massive amount of mistrust when it comes to hunting. I used to go out with a bloodhound pack hunting the clean boot but I can't convince anti-hunt people that bloodhounds don't rip foxes apart. I actually never saw any illegal activity in all the years I was hunting - but I do know that some packs behaved in an unacceptable way.
There is a strong feeling that absolutely every 'legal' hunt is a smokescreen and all are breaking the law - and they are using this to try and get hunting of any kind (including drag hunts and bloodhound packs) banned totally.

Of course you are not going to be able to convince most anti-hunters that every legal hunt is not a smokescreen for illegal hunting if that is what those individuals have chosen to believe. But if hunters are caught on camera abusing horses or illegally killing foxes they are doing it in the full knowledge they could be being filmed and that it will end up all over social media. They must know that will be negative publicity for their ‘sport’, which they try so hard to defend? Unfortunately I don’t think the general public differentiate between hunts that do it within the law and those that don’t. They are all just hunts and I think they are on borrowed time.

 

[palo1]

I started a list of the number of posts that have elements that appear to excuse or partially excuse this behaviour, especially when you look at who has liked them, but I gave up because there were so many.

Goldenstar's posts stood out as defending the woman and appeared to suggest that the kick and hitting had produced a positive result, and have you really no awareness of how your own post about how sabs may have made her angry reads?
.

I was very clear in that post that there was no excuse for hitting a horse. The fact is that to me it seems relevant to point out that sab behaviour can be extremely difficult to deal with. Every time I mention poor behaviour from Sabs there is an excuse spouted by anti-hunters. It is the same! IF that had anything to do with this situation it still doesn't justify it but some people may not be aware of what it is like to try to do something that is entirely legal and be actively terrorised whilst doing that. I think I have every right to point out stuff that isn't necessarily convenient for other people to read, in the same way you do. I want people to read another narrative about hunting which isn't led by sabs. This incident is dire but it's not unusual in horse handling; you have admitted doing 'worse' yourself.

It was probably a mistake for me to mention the impact that Sabs could have had but I saw that situation with people filming and I know how hassled and upset I would be. I wouldn't hit my horse actually but some people would lose their cool in that setting. I am very glad that both the HO and the Cottesmore hunt have said this isn't acceptable - we all know that and hunters need to make sure that is perfectly, unequivocally clear.

 

[millikins]

The hunt in question should make a public statement that this supporter has been banned for whatever period of time they find appropriate. But I also think that the policy of appeasement is obviously failing, the sabs will not be happy until all trail hunting is banned, then it will be drag and bloodhounds and then onto racing and eventing. I would love to see Chris Packham served with a summons for slander/libel after his attempt to smear the hunt over the stolen car event, he is a hard line activist who uses a publicly funded platform to further his campaigning.

 

[ester]

Christ can you imagine them saying in public statements it was acceptable, they wouldn't be that stupid surely. It will come across to many as just empty words though really, on the basis that really they couldn't say anything other than that. I'm not sure I could be that glad that they'd said the minimum they could say.

 

[Dizzy socks]

The video is terrible, and her behaviour can't be justified in any way.

Palo, I slightly agree with YCBM that mentioning sab behaviour slightly undermines 'there is no excuse'. Essentially, even if you're just trying to provide possible context, it reads like a mitigating factor - because otherwise what value is there in the context, I suppose? I'm just thinking out loud, really.

I do however think, separate from all other debates re hunting etc, that the quick responses from the Cottesmore and HO are positive - I don't doubt that behaviour like this occurs in all equestrian spheres, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't find it shocking when we witness it, regardless of where. I agree a ban would be appropriate. If this is another problem for the future of hunting, I don't think the fault can be really be ascribed to Hunting's central governance - the blame sits squarely on the shoulders of the woman involved.

 

[ycbm]

you have admitted doing 'worse' yourself

No I haven't, if you are going for a personal attack here please get it right.
.

 

[ycbm]

Shooting is an entirely legal activity with no restrictions on it at all at the moment but that doesn't mean that there isn't increasing conflict between anti hunting and shooting groups and people carrying out those entirely legal activities.

I think there will be a lot of support in the general population for the sabbing of shooting, legal or not. I don't doubt that it will happen at some point.
.

 

[Dizzy socks]

@palo1 would you mind posting links to the responses by the HO and The Cottesmore please? I may be being daft, but can't seem to find them on fb or their websites?

 

[palo1]

The hunt in question should make a public statement that this supporter has been banned for whatever period of time they find appropriate. But I also think that the policy of appeasement is obviously failing, the sabs will not be happy until all trail hunting is banned, then it will be drag and bloodhounds and then onto racing and eventing. I would love to see Chris Packham served with a summons for slander/libel after his attempt to smear the hunt over the stolen car event, he is a hard line activist who uses a publicly funded platform to further his campaigning.

Yes, I agree with you. From what I can see the BBC are increasingly uncomfortable with the issues that employing CP brings them; the RSPB are also struggling with his stance on, for example trapping which they use but yet CP has outright condemned and in his unity with the Hunt Saboteurs Association, encourages the illegal destruction of traps. That is rather paradoxical and difficult for anyone to justify. In their turn the RSPB are in an awkward place as traps set to catch stoats etc have caught and killed several domestic cats. If that was related to hunting there would be an almighty outcry but because of CP....well....

Following the Martin Bashir scandal the BBC are overhauling their due diligence around celebrity/senior presenters which is a good thing. The beeb received considerable criticism for allowing CP to nominate LACS as charity recipient on a game show and have acknowledged that this is difficult. In their turn ITV's Rupert Evelyn, anti-hunting journalist has been very much identified as uncomfortably close to some undesirable and criminal individuals and groups associated with them in the animal rights movement. Rupert Evelyn is enjoying his moment of success but with increasing attention on their due diligence also, ITV will probably find that politically motivated journalists and presenters are too difficult and inconvenient to manage.

It is not a great age of journalism atm which is a shame as we rely on journalists and TV presenters to stick to their area of expertise and to tell the truth, not just their preferred bits of it. Hey ho...First world problems in a sense.

 

[ester]

They are on the ITV link provided earlier albeit in bits

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-11-07/upsetting-hunt-rider-condemned-for-slapping-and-kicking-horse

 

[ester]

People rely on journalists? really?! when?

 

[palo1]

No I haven't, if you are going for a personal attack here please get it right.
.

No personal attack at all - I was just repeating what you had written 'Yes, I've done as bad myself'. Apologies for not repeating that correctly - definitely my bad.

 

[palo1]

People rely on journalists? really?! when?

Well, we don't now...I 'think' that is what journalist used to be about though. I didn't express that very well sadly. But you are right.

 

[SO1]

The fault lies of course with the person who has abused her horse.

However how the governing organisations deal with this issue will also have an impact. I think that they need to do more than just condone the behaviour of this person.

If this women was returning from a meet when this happened the hunting associations should be saying she is now banned from attending further hunt activities. All they have said is that she is not a member of any hunting organisations.

I don't think equine sports governing bodies do enough in terms of banning people who are found to be abusing horses in the name of sport.

The video is terrible, and her behaviour can't be justified in any way.

Palo, I slightly agree with YCBM that mentioning sab behaviour slightly undermines 'there is no excuse'. Essentially, even if you're just trying to provide possible context, it reads like a mitigating factor - because otherwise what value is there in the context, I suppose? I'm just thinking out loud, really.

I do however think, separate from all other debates re hunting etc, that the quick responses from the Cottesmore and HO are positive - I don't doubt that behaviour like this occurs in all equestrian spheres, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't find it shocking when we witness it, regardless of where. I agree a ban would be appropriate. If this is another problem for the future of hunting, I don't think the fault can be really be ascribed to Hunting's central governance - the blame sits squarely on the shoulders of the woman involved.

 

[The Irish Draft 2022]

Palo1 you should be ashamed of yourself for thinking it’s acceptable behavior and if you’re so worried about hunting being banned then hunts should take some responsibility for their actions. I have seen awful behavior from the uk hunts . Something you wouldn’t see in Ireland .

 

[AmyMay]

They are on the ITV link provided earlier albeit in bits

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-11-07/upsetting-hunt-rider-condemned-for-slapping-and-kicking-horse

That’s all I’ve seen too. Nothing on sm from either.

 

[Dizzy socks]

They are on the ITV link provided earlier albeit in bits

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-11-07/upsetting-hunt-rider-condemned-for-slapping-and-kicking-horse

Thank you - I’d hoped they’d made an actual statement of their own volition, and would have made it accessible. These read more like a response to being asked questions, than an active statement.

 

[SO1]

What I find disappointing is neither organisation has said they will ban this individual from hunt activities.

Thank you - I’d hoped they’d made an actual statement of their own volition, and would have made it accessible. These read more like a response to being asked questions, than an active statement.

 

[justme1]

Poor pony. If she is willing to do that in a very public place you can only guess what goes on behind closed doors.
I’m afraid I would support people like this being banned from horse ownership unless supervised on an ‘official’ yard as they will just continue to do it out of sight .

 

[Dave's Mam]

Poor pony. Taking out the whole hunting aspect, this is not acceptable to me. As said earlier upthread, the pony seemed like this wasn't a new thing.
Poor wee thing.

 

[shortstuff99]

I don't understand where every one is seeing this all the time on livery yards and shows?

I've seen it once on a livery yard and I intervened. I'm also a riding club official steward and we take any form of abuse very seriously and have actions and sanctions that we take if that happens.

As an aside sabs do also go to a lot of other animal rights events. A lot of the sabs around my way protest at MBR beagles and covance for animal testing, they also protest at slaughter houses etc.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I totally agree and the hunt itself and their governing body should be taking advice on how to deal with this instance and be issuing a media statement to condone the behaviour and ban her from hunt regardless of who she is.

I feel sorry for the horse and also the innocent child in this situation who will have to go to school tomorrow.

I can only assume that you mean 'condemn' the behaviour.