Fransurrey
Well-Known Member
Suitably Qualified Person - the qualification held by any member of staff which enables them to sell veterinary endecto/ectocides such as wormers, flea/tick products - anything classed as POM-VPS or NFA-VPS.
How is this vet allowed to conduct themselves like this online?
- Thread starter AWinter
- Start date
Fieldlife
Well-Known Member
I thought, but might be talking nonsense, that they arent treated when totally dormant and encysted, and need to be emerging / active to be treated? Hence why the timing of treatment matters? Else you would just treat once a year and have done with it and weather wouldnt matter.
Most common advice is to treat after a few hard frosts?
PurpleSpots
Well-Known Member
Moxidectin (Equest) and fenbendazole (Panacur) in a 5-day course are active against encysted small redworm, but there is widespread resistance to fenbendazole.
The egg reappearance interval with moxidectin is decreasing which suggests resistance is developing to this drug in the active larval stage too, hence why we need to be careful with its use - as with all wormers.
To the best of my knowledge, using figures from 2 years ago (there may have been more studies done since), the efficacy of moxidectin against encysted small redworm was only 50-70%, which means that up to 50% will survive treatment. When first introduced, I believe the efficacy claims were 80%, but this is pulled from my memory only and was also a claim made by the drug company themself, so it may have been a best case scenario figure which hasn't varied as much as it might seem.
Also from 2 years ago, there was a study done in the US which found only an 18% reduction to the earlier stage larvae, and 60% against the later stages and they found that the population of larvae had risen back to the original levels after 5 weeks.
Dr Nielsen pointed out that as horses can tend to harbour several hundred thousands of encysted larvae, one has to ask whether reducing these numbers by a percentage for a few weeks is actually beneficial. It also brings into question the danger of the mass emergence in the spring which we have accepted as a yearly threat, the disease it causes apparently actually being 'extremely rare', especially as the treatment for encysted small redworms appears to have a limited window of impact on only a percentage of the population of encysted larvae.
I think the rationale for treating after a few hard frosts is to try to limit the reinfection rate as worm activity is lower during the cold months, but it could also be so that the treatment for encysted small redworms can coincide with a bot treatment, which definitely IS best done a few weeks after the first frosts have killed off all the adult flies. However, contrary to widespread advice over here in the UK, Dr Nielsen has also said that moxidectin isn't that effective against bots and that ivermectin is better.
Please note: I am only sharing the information I have, and am definitely not trying to advise anyone against following the current accepted best practice for worming which I am inclined to follow myself still. I am simply sharing what I have learned, and being mindful that drug resistance is an increasingly worrying issue, hence being open to new research and knowledge which will lead us to hopefully preserving these drugs' usefulness.
ETA: Nearly all species of small redworm larvae go through an encysted stage in the gut wall in a normal life cycle at all times of the year. Some become dormant for longer during this stage, and those are the ones which are referred to as 'inhibited encysted larvae'.
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Fieldlife
Well-Known Member
thanks.
So academically, if you were going to use Pramox, when between now and march would you give it? I was thinking as soon as had two hard frosts. But now a bit unsure?
PurpleSpots
Well-Known Member
My reply has probably confused matters more! Sorry. There's alot of information available online (from reputable sources) which challenges our currently widely taught understanding in the UK I think.
I tried to call Westgate Labs earlier but their message says that most of ther SQPs are at HOYS - I am happy to report back to this question once I've made contact with them rather than it being my personal opinion, unless someone else makes contact with them first? Seeing as their sole focus is worms and worming and they are (I think?) the biggest company of that sort in the UK I'd tend to defer to their advice.
My point, rather than wishing to over-complicate things or create uncertainty, was just to illustrate that these 'FACTS' that SV is yelling about actually aren't, and that there is newer and more thorough knowledge being developed which is evolving all the time.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
The after frosts thing is the after they’ll likely acquire any more burden.
The window to treat is then mostly determined by avoiding the mass spring emergence.
It’s always ended up being my Christmas sort of time treatment, I wouldn’t be doing it yet.
The window to treat is then mostly determined by avoiding the mass spring emergence.
It’s always ended up being my Christmas sort of time treatment, I wouldn’t be doing it yet.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
A recent post on Westgate FB page re timings for worming for encysted redworm. I usually wait til Feb and do it then. Worming with Equest now is not wrong though if a recent high worm count suggests that action is needed.
I never use Pramox - too many adverse reactions.
I never use Pramox - too many adverse reactions.
Dustygirl
Well-Known Member
My mare came back with a worm count recently that required worming. I was unsure which wormer to use and there seemed to be much discussion online. The yards vet said equest but this bothered me as I knew she’d need that over winter for encysted red worm. My vet said use an ivermectin based wormer so I went with that. The SQP who I bought it from totally agreed and said def not equest.
It’s confusing when professionals don’t seem to agree!
It’s confusing when professionals don’t seem to agree!
ester
Not slacking multitasking
It’s a bit of a many roads to Rome thing, neither is wrong
lizziebell
Well-Known Member
What a wonderful place the HH forum is, where these topics can be dissected and discussed by horse owners in a friendly and helpful manner. Unlike SV’s page !
Mrs. Jingle
Well-Known Member
And far more informative and helpful than SV's dictatorial and often incorrect advice. I have learned more about up to date worming protocol in the last few posts than I have in the last 70 years!
Thanks fellow forumites, love to still be taking new information on board even if it only relates to my donkeys these days.
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
If people want someone to do it, I will. My name has been rightly and wrongly dragged through the mud more than once all over social media, so she can have at it with me, I couldn't care less.
PurpleSpots
Well-Known Member
I'm all for spreading correct information, but it would have to be run incredibly tightly with no errors, no opinions, no slating of anyone (SV included else we're no better and have no right to object to her doing that), facts pointed out as being the most current thinking rather than absolutes, and only in response to comments on the page in question which are obviously wrong.
Quite an undertaking!
That was my vision for it anyway. Not something I could offer to do, so very happy if someone else is willing.
Miss_Millie
Well-Known Member
I made the mistake of flicking through the comments on her post and it has made me feel depressed.
She loves to reinforce the unscientific stereotype of the 'naughty horse'. It's astounding that a vet is so dismissive of pain in animals; quite terrifying actually.
I wonder how many other people in the profession see her posts and then have to go and search for their eyes because they rolled out of the backs of their heads. I'm convinced that she will eventually overstep the mark and land herself in big trouble.
As for company sponsorships, I'm quite sure that they only care about the person they are sponsoring having a big following to increase their sales, and couldn't care less about the person or their conduct/ethics. E.g. Aubiose sponsors both SV and Gawsworth Track, which couldn't be more different in their attitudes to horse behaviour and welfare. The only thing they have in common is that they both like to rant and block people! I do think that companies need to be more aware of this, as it will put people off their products. I considered trying Aubiose for a while and ended up going with a different local brand, due to being put off by who Aubiose choose to sponsor.
She loves to reinforce the unscientific stereotype of the 'naughty horse'. It's astounding that a vet is so dismissive of pain in animals; quite terrifying actually.
I wonder how many other people in the profession see her posts and then have to go and search for their eyes because they rolled out of the backs of their heads. I'm convinced that she will eventually overstep the mark and land herself in big trouble.
As for company sponsorships, I'm quite sure that they only care about the person they are sponsoring having a big following to increase their sales, and couldn't care less about the person or their conduct/ethics. E.g. Aubiose sponsors both SV and Gawsworth Track, which couldn't be more different in their attitudes to horse behaviour and welfare. The only thing they have in common is that they both like to rant and block people! I do think that companies need to be more aware of this, as it will put people off their products. I considered trying Aubiose for a while and ended up going with a different local brand, due to being put off by who Aubiose choose to sponsor.
PurpleSpots
Well-Known Member
Just back to the worming subject, in trying to improve my knowledge further thanks to this thread I've just come across this video - the soundtrack is too quiet, but if you can get past that I found it really interesting and useful and wanted to share it in case it helps anyone else too 
.
One interesting aspect is that they have a herd of horses who haven't been wormed since 1979 (or '69, can't remember), but they perform fecal egg counts on them and monitor their health.
www.facebook.com
.One interesting aspect is that they have a herd of horses who haven't been wormed since 1979 (or '69, can't remember), but they perform fecal egg counts on them and monitor their health.
The Parasite Journey of the Horse, Episode 3: Small Strongyles | 𝐓𝐡𝐞 𝐏𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐬𝐢𝐭𝐞 𝐉𝐨𝐮𝐫𝐧𝐞𝐲 𝐨𝐟 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐇𝐨𝐫𝐬𝐞 Episode 3. Watching videos during lock-down can be good, but even Netflix and Hulu get old! Are you craving... | By University of Kentucky Maxwell H
𝐓𝐡𝐞 𝐏𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐬𝐢𝐭𝐞 𝐉𝐨𝐮𝐫𝐧𝐞𝐲 𝐨𝐟 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐇𝐨𝐫𝐬𝐞 Episode 3. Watching videos during lock-down can be good, but even Netflix and Hulu get old! Are you craving...
www.facebook.com
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PurpleSpots
Well-Known Member
Crikey, there's now even a website for the UK on wormer resistance, with guidelines which were published just last week!
canterforhorses.org.uk
There is confirmation that a blanket worming for encysted small redworm does not guarantee protection from larval cyathostominosis, and that it only rarely occurs in horses whether treated or not.
Further information is that small redworms encyst and excyst year-round, and that horses can spontaneously expel large numbers of active larvae in a self-care attempt. This can trigger inhibited encysted small redworms to excyst, as can the use of an effective wormer which expels large numbers of larvae from the gut as both events cause the gut lumen to be vacated which is the trigger for the excysting of the encysted larvae.
Home - CANTER
A coordinated approach for the equestrian community to combat wormer resistance GET THE LATEST CANTER News THE BURNING QUESTION What is wormer resistance? Just like antibiotics our worming chemicals are becoming less effective every time we use them. Most equestrian centres in the UK will have...
canterforhorses.org.uk
There is confirmation that a blanket worming for encysted small redworm does not guarantee protection from larval cyathostominosis, and that it only rarely occurs in horses whether treated or not.
Further information is that small redworms encyst and excyst year-round, and that horses can spontaneously expel large numbers of active larvae in a self-care attempt. This can trigger inhibited encysted small redworms to excyst, as can the use of an effective wormer which expels large numbers of larvae from the gut as both events cause the gut lumen to be vacated which is the trigger for the excysting of the encysted larvae.
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Time for Tea
Well-Known Member
This is my vets recommendation
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Tempting though it might be to set up an alternative FB page to SV, it couldn’t succeed unless it was hosted by one of her peers to call out falsehoods and misleading information, and none of them would touch it with a bargepole.
The slightest information slip up from the alternative page and SV and cronies would be on it in a frenzy.
SV needs to be stopped by her professional body from publicly posting her highly dubious veterinary-opinions-presented-as-fact and from subsequently shutting down any reasonable queries or dissent on those opinions.
The slightest information slip up from the alternative page and SV and cronies would be on it in a frenzy.
SV needs to be stopped by her professional body from publicly posting her highly dubious veterinary-opinions-presented-as-fact and from subsequently shutting down any reasonable queries or dissent on those opinions.
Mrs. Jingle
Well-Known Member
This ^^^^^ in spades. Much as it would be great to set something like this up, the logistics of keeping a tight ship and sticking to verifiable facts without actually libeling the shouty one would be a 24/7 job with every old groupie right down to the office cat ripping the alternative information FB page to shreds.
In theory the idea is a great one, but in practice it would very quickly descend into a biatch fest and even if you made it membership only to keep out her deluded followers it would defeat the object of getting the correct information through to as big an audience as possible.
Just my opinion but up to others if they feel this would be a good way to go.
Bobthecob15
Well-Known Member
yes same, I'm with Westgate and they also said Ivermectin as we had a positive redworm result...so I used Equimax as that was the only Ivermectin based one at our local shop. Also treats Tapeworm which is handy as that came back positive too! Double whammy for me this month!
PurpleSpots
Well-Known Member
I do agree that a counter-page for actual accurate information would be incredibly difficult to maintain.
Reports to the RCVS is I think the best way.
Though looking at the level of engagement she gets these days she seems to be alot less popular than she was anyway. Her determination to share information that is detrimental to horses, and her rude ways of responding to people at will are alienating alot of people who know better and care more I think.
Reports to the RCVS is I think the best way.
Though looking at the level of engagement she gets these days she seems to be alot less popular than she was anyway. Her determination to share information that is detrimental to horses, and her rude ways of responding to people at will are alienating alot of people who know better and care more I think.
SaddlePsych'D
Well-Known Member
I think a counter-page could send more traffic to her page and if she has monetised her account that will be a positive for her, regardless of why the traffic is coming her way. Same as Dressage Hub. I don't think they especially care about what they post other than to generate traffic/interactions with their pages and posts.
PurpleSpots
Well-Known Member
SV: 'I have backed and produced hundreds of horses and ponies throughout my life... When you’ve produced horses for decades, you don’t need to be a vet to know when a horse is being dramatic/naughty, or when they’ve got an issue that needs looking into.'
Face : palm.
Face : palm.
nettle
Well-Known Member
Hundreds? Really? Remind me, how old is she? And that fitted in with being a vet student and then a full time vet?
PurpleSpots
Well-Known Member
If only it had been written as:
'You don't need to be a vet to know that if a horse seems dramatic/naughty it actually means they've got a physical or emotional or combined issue that needs looking in to.'
'You don't need to be a vet to know that if a horse seems dramatic/naughty it actually means they've got a physical or emotional or combined issue that needs looking in to.'
FieldOrnaments
Well-Known Member
How old actually is she? Must be mid-late 30s at least if the bio on her (p1ss poor) website is anything to go by?
TPO
🤠🏴
Reacher
Well-Known Member
Which, coincidentally, is the answer to life, the universe and everything
TPO
🤠🏴
Although clearly not the answer to what makes someone a decent human being with empathy for animals
FieldOrnaments
Well-Known Member
Thank you.
Though I think that makes her conduct worse.
She really ought to know better and be setting a better example. I do worry for her clients and their animals.