Hunt coming through yard

ycbm

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I don't hunt any more since both local drag packs folded, but I have looked into starting again since my local "trail" hunt finally seems to have realised fox hunting genuinely is against the law.

But every time I think about it, and by heck Joe will make a cracking hunter, I remember just how many times I felt anxious about the impact that the hunt was having on the lives of other people. I think the sad fact is that we now live in too crowded a country for hunting to go on except in the most under-populated areas.

The inability of die hard hunters to recognise (ETA and take responsibility for) their impact on other people's lives really frustrates me.
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rabatsa

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That's interesting, not the hounds who hunt, presumably, just the puppies?
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Just the weaned puppies until they grew up. You could tell at the puppy show who had done some training with their pups as certain people always had pups that did not pull on the leads, others got towed around the ring by rather unruly hounds.
 

Tiddlypom

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Wrt to the owners winding their horses up by over worrying about them, well yes, that can happen. Mim's used to her stable, though, so hopefully won't get unduly antsy.

However, I know personally of far more horses who got injured, sometimes fatally, when left out when the hunt goes by or through their field, than horses who got injured in their stables.

Including locally not too long ago a competition horse belonging to two hospital consultants. It got so overwrought at an unexpected ride by by the hunt when they were at work that it charged frantically round its field, ending up colicking and racking up thousands in vet bills.

Both medics were furious, if they’d known that the hunt was coming past their house they’d have kept their horses in. They do now get told after complaining, but they should of course have been told anyway.
 

CanteringCarrot

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Wrt to the owners winding their horses up by over worrying about them, well yes, that can happen. Mim's used to her stable, though, so hopefully won't get unduly antsy.

However, I know personally of far more horses who got injured, sometimes fatally, when left out when the hunt goes by or through their field, than horses who got injured in their stables.

Including locally not too long ago a competition horse belonging to two hospital consultants. It got so overwrought at an unexpected ride by by the hunt when they were at work that it charged frantically round its field, ending up colicking and racking up thousands in vet bills.

Both medics were furious, if they’d known that the hunt was coming past their house they’d have kept their horses in. They do now get told after complaining, but they should of course have been told anyway.

This kills me a bit, for a variety of reasons. One being that hunt people are also/should be horse people. So I don't know how or why it is so hard to tell those in the local area when and where they'll be coming through. Then people can secure their horses and other animals as necessary. Making it safer for all involved.

If this was some sport done by non horse people I could see how this would slip the mind, but (especially experienced) hunters should have a clue.
 

tristar

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i come from a family of foxhunters, 4 generations, my grandfather used hunting for the introduction of young horses to the outside world mainly, making young horses.

i do not hunt, but have over the years seen lots of incidents with hounds getting out of control, and think any precautions to avoid such incidents are wise, as is having knowledge of when they are likely to be in the area

in my experience many hunts have not been elitist and have welcomed visitors, even when they know royalty will be present, and have extended invitations to me included having met members through work business, horse business etc, i never thought of them as a class society, and children also, special days for kids meets, although the first charge can end up looking like a battle field,

i think a lot anti i came across was extremist in attitude, they should just stick to animal welfare if that is their interest, cause most of the hunters i have known covered the broadest spectrum of society

and hunting has produced some of the finest horses ever to have lived
 

minesadouble

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So if you're anti-hunt or have never hunted, you're automatically an inexperienced horse person? That seems a bit of an ignorant sweeping statement, and a huge disservice to the many experienced horse people who practice various equestrian disciplines, not just in this country but across the world. I'm sure that many top level riders couldn't give a hoot about the British hunting traditions.

You are totally and deliberately ignoring the words directly below those you quoted, namely

" I totally accept that you can be a horse owner of 50 + years and disagree with hunting but I would bet that overall there is more antagonism towards hunting in the newer generation of horse owners."

Do you work in political media by any chance? A talent for taking words out of context is much sought after in that field ?

I was simply referring to the fact that if you were brought up 40 years or so ago, in the countryside, and you had a pony and went to Pony Club you would almost inevitably have been regularly exposed to hunting and viewed it as part of country life.
Most of today's average pony/horse owners do not have the same kind of introduction to riding/horse ownership as we did many years ago.
 

minesadouble

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With regard to the original question re leave in or out I think if I only had one or two I'd keep in.
A big herd will normally be fine outside.
We currently have our gelding herd in a roadside field and a 'drive' went past last week. About 25 horse/cart combinations the boys were incredulous, lots of popping eyes and a bit of drama but as soon as the drive passed they were snoozing in the sun again within 10 minutes.

It's actually amazing what they deal with. We have a local annual airshow and a lot of the planes, which include the red arrows, ancient, slow, huge war planes and everything in between, use the airspace above our land to turn and head back to the crowds.
They fly really low and some of them are deafening but the horses barely flicker an eyelid!
 

milliepops

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I was simply referring to the fact that if you were brought up 40 years or so ago, in the countryside, and you had a pony and went to Pony Club you would almost inevitably have been regularly exposed to hunting and viewed it as part of country life.
Most of today's average pony/horse owners do not have the same kind of introduction to riding/horse ownership as we did many years ago.
I agree with this and that's what I took from your previous post too.
I am on the tail of that sort of age group, but everyone I knew through horses was either involved with PC or with the local hunt and so it was indeed a regular part of horsey life, even though i rarely hunted as a child, only the meet i could hack to which was new years day.
I can only think of one person i know now who takes any horses hunting.

Until recently I was on a yard that bordered the country of 2 packs, foxhounds and harriers, and was a popular meet so we saw a lot of them. it was a mixed experience but overall OK - my YO was fairly fierce in that regard so we always knew when and where they would be.
 

rextherobber

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I was simply referring to the fact that if you were brought up 40 years or so ago, in the countryside, and you had a pony and went to Pony Club you would almost inevitably have been regularly exposed to hunting and viewed it as part of country life.
Most of today's average pony/horse owners do not have the same kind of introduction to riding/horse ownership as we did many years ago.

An opposite viewpoint to Milliepops, and slightly older! I had exactly that upbringing, but was always opposed to foxhunting - just because something is the norm doesn't mean you cannot form your own opinion on things... The way we use the countryside is changing, agriculture has changed, far more people can travel out of cities to visit and use the countryside recreationally. Things must change and hopefully, the days of Gamekeepers viewing 99% of British wildlife as vermin are numbered.
 

YorksG

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I always love reading your writings about hunting and your passion so clearly shows through, and you speak so eloquently about it.

Playing devil's advocate, I think you come from a very shuttered viewpoint on what class and privilege are. Hunting in England has always been class related. If you don't think that's true then go into any working class area and see how many red coats you find. To think hunting in England is accessible by everyone is a bit naive. Surely it's always been the wealthy and landowners that form the basis historically of hunts?

When I read your connection and knowledge of nature, it is a million miles away from my local hunts who don't have the same viewpoint or respect for the countryside as you do.
It very much depends on where in the country you are, not all fox hunting is done while mounted. Foot packs in the North of England are widespread. This is often dictated by the land they hunt on. Followers are from all walks of life. Also horse ownership in the pennine Hills has always been slightly different, with many small holdings of 3 to 6 acres, which were essential to home weaving
 

Fred66

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To be honest from this thread it seems like most people’s objections to the hunt comes from the huge amount of inconvenience created by a very small minority sport that most of us don’t take part in. It’s very disruptive when you’ve got to keep horses in and deal with upset and panicking animals whilst the hunt charge over your land, particularly if you rent and don’t get a say if you want them there or not. They used to tear up our local hacking at my old yard and block lots of the lanes. It doesn’t help the image of the sport at all.
Tolerance appears to be a thing of the past, there is a huge swathe of society that appears to think that their rights outweighs other. Yes the hunts need to be considerate and yes it is a minority activity but then so is horse riding.
If someone chooses to rent a property that allows the hunt across it or past it then they have to accept there will be disruption occasionally.
Make sure your fencing is safe and leave youngsters out (especially at this time of year when largely the hunts are slower paced) to get them accustomed to it. Most will at worst razz round the field, there will be the odd one that does try to join in but these are few and once they get used to it then it becomes less of an issue.
If you go straight to shutting in then you will always have the disruption.
 

milliepops

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An opposite viewpoint to Milliepops, and slightly older! I had exactly that upbringing, but was always opposed to foxhunting - just because something is the norm doesn't mean you cannot form your own opinion on things... The way we use the countryside is changing, agriculture has changed, far more people can travel out of cities to visit and use the countryside recreationally. Things must change and hopefully, the days of Gamekeepers viewing 99% of British wildlife as vermin are numbered.
I didn't mean I was particularly a supporter of hunting - in fact in my teens I went through a pretty confirmed anti phase before landing squarely on the fence. but general involvement with the hunting community was much more common in my neck of the woods than now - hunt shows, hunt social events etc were more enmeshed with the equestrian scene than they are now. so even if you weren't a subscriber you would probably go to the hunt rounders evening with horsey mates or do the hunt supporters club dressage shows etc

that's largely died away or gone solely to subscribers now with RCs, equestrian centres etc filling the space it's left.
 

palo1

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ycbm hounds from my local pack do live in houses, over the years I have been asked to walk puppies and was not expected to have outside kennels for them.

All the puppy walkers I know have the hound puppies wherever their 'other' dogs are; many are in the house though where people walk more than 2 they are often in a stable or other outdoor space. Lots of them end up well house-trained (for the convenience of the walkers) though that isn't required in their adult life. Those hounds are much loved and often return to their walkers in retirement.

It very much depends on where in the country you are, not all fox hunting is done while mounted. Foot packs in the North of England are widespread. This is often dictated by the land they hunt on. Followers are from all walks of life. Also horse ownership in the pennine Hills has always been slightly different, with many small holdings of 3 to 6 acres, which were essential to home weaving


Similarly in Wales and with Welsh/English borders packs and parts of the West Country where the country dictated either hunting on foot or hunting on a more rugged sort of horse/pony to cross the country. A great many of the farmers packs and miners packs in those areas used native horses and were generally definitely not 'posh'. We have always welcomed local farmers, graziers, farm workers etc who will have caught up a pony on the farm for a few hours out. We still see a sprinkling of flat caps instead of safety helmets (eek!) and there is considerable pride in a native pony that hunts well here.
 

Fred66

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Haven't managed to read all replies yet so sorry if this has been said! I think people are more anti hunt now as years ago you were allowed to hunt. The hunts seemed to be run differently, back then they were polite and carried out the farmers wishes. Now they aren't supposed to hunt , but they do, that pisses me off, they are obnoxious and think they can do anything ride anywhere. Every time a hunt gets caught out and it goes to court they are let off which gets leoples backs up even more. As an aside I use this forum for the mass of information it has, I don't subscribe to anything on here and I don't read horse and hound!!
By let off do you mean not sentenced harshly enough or do you mean found not guilty?
If the latter then that is what the court is for to hear the evidence and decide whether there is sufficient proof a crime has been committed. Being innocent is not being let off.
If the former then maybe you have a point, but that would be on a case by case basis
The hunt are given access to land by the same farmers as before, re the politeness then I think a natural wariness due to the permanent bad press that they get has made them seem more standoffish and therefore potentially less polite.
 

NinjaPony

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Tolerance appears to be a thing of the past, there is a huge swathe of society that appears to think that their rights outweighs other. Yes the hunts need to be considerate and yes it is a minority activity but then so is horse riding.
If someone chooses to rent a property that allows the hunt across it or past it then they have to accept there will be disruption occasionally.
Make sure your fencing is safe and leave youngsters out (especially at this time of year when largely the hunts are slower paced) to get them accustomed to it. Most will at worst razz round the field, there will be the odd one that does try to join in but these are few and once they get used to it then it becomes less of an issue.
If you go straight to shutting in then you will always have the disruption.

But why do the rights of the hunt to cause disruption come above the rights of the owner/tenant to enjoy their land peacefully? Why should they have to just put up and shut up and watch their animals ‘razz around the field’, and make all these extra efforts to accommodate the hunt when it has nothing to do with them? No other organised horse sport has the same direct impact on people’s property and animals.
This is why the hunt have to be whiter than white. Sadly, this thread shows how often they fail to live up to those standards. It’s a real shame.
 

rabatsa

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Just my personal experience. My local pony club DC was also a Master of Foxhounds. Pony club members were all encouraged to be involved with the hunt with regular visits to kennels, pony club meets and welcome at any other meet.

I grew up, got married to a farmer and the hunt were always welcome to come on to the land for fox control purposes. I went hunting every now and then when the meet was in hacking distance from home.

Forward some more years and the ban came in. I went to the last meet of the old and the first of the new. I have only hunted twice since then as it was not the same.

Despite not hunting I paid a supporters subscription and the hunt were welcome to pass over the land. Then we got a bad Master. He was an arrogant sod and heartily disliked by the farmers. There were problems, serious problems leading to a very mild mannered Mr R having really strong words one day and the hunt getting banned from coming near.

A very apologetic Field Master came round and we came to an agreement where the ban stayed in place but two hunt staff may follow hounds that came across the land, by accident, and for every occurance the hunt would donate £50 to the local RDA group. The RDA got £100 that season even though hounds did not cross the land.

The Master went and a new one came who had many bridges to mend. The hunt can once again pass through the land.

The bad Master went and joined a new Bloodhound pack also in this area. He sent his underlings to ask if they pass along the lane. The underlings told us they got sent as the Master was scared of meeting Mr R again. They were allowed on the lane but not on the land.

I have never been tempted to try the bloodhound hunting as the Master put me off the idea. Perhaps now he has gone I would like it? I do not know.
 

littleshetland

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I lived for many years just adjacent to my local hunt kennels. Ive lost count of the number of times I had to endure their arrogance, sense of entitlement and rudeness, but because of our properties being so adjacent I endured them silently and with good grace. One winters evening there was a lost and forgotten fox hound in my yard. I gathered him up, put him in the car and drove him the 1/2 mile or so back to the kennels. ' Hi there, this is one of yours I believe ' I said brightly...the response I got was nothing, no 'thank you'...just nothing.
 

palo1

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But stories abound (in my area anyway) of hunts with permission to go on land, just not that bit
Then they go on that bit anyway, resulting in a ban from the whole lot

I don't know if it's due to incompetence, arrogance, or something else, but often they seem bent on self-sabotage

Well I hear these things too. I hear them of our own and neighbouring hunts when the facts often completely disprove those stories. In two recent incidents (within the last year or so) I have been told that 'the hunt went on xxx's ground when they know they were not welcome'' - when the truth is that the hunt were nowhere near that area on that day! Once that record is set straight people tend to feel a bit peeved that they have been fed a myth!! Our neighbours have had sabs deliberately push and call hounds onto ground where the hunt has no permission to be in order to cause trouble. That can sometimes result in stories of hunts being in the wrong place too.

People listen to, hear and repeat stuff often without thinking though I have also heard local people challenge this kind of stuff. Stories are not necessarily facts but the anti-hunt brigade use stories, rumours and supposition to spread ill-feeling. They are very, very good at that and have a very loud if often misinformed or vexatious voice. Having said that some hunt individuals do seem to be bent on poor PR and self sabotage - I have no idea why to be honest!! It's not what I experience nor what I am used to historically.
 

palo1

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Just my personal experience. My local pony club DC was also a Master of Foxhounds. Pony club members were all encouraged to be involved with the hunt with regular visits to kennels, pony club meets and welcome at any other meet.

I grew up, got married to a farmer and the hunt were always welcome to come on to the land for fox control purposes. I went hunting every now and then when the meet was in hacking distance from home.

Forward some more years and the ban came in. I went to the last meet of the old and the first of the new. I have only hunted twice since then as it was not the same.

Despite not hunting I paid a supporters subscription and the hunt were welcome to pass over the land. Then we got a bad Master. He was an arrogant sod and heartily disliked by the farmers. There were problems, serious problems leading to a very mild mannered Mr R having really strong words one day and the hunt getting banned from coming near.

A very apologetic Field Master came round and we came to an agreement where the ban stayed in place but two hunt staff may follow hounds that came across the land, by accident, and for every occurance the hunt would donate £50 to the local RDA group. The RDA got £100 that season even though hounds did not cross the land.

The Master went and a new one came who had many bridges to mend. The hunt can once again pass through the land.

The bad Master went and joined a new Bloodhound pack also in this area. He sent his underlings to ask if they pass along the lane. The underlings told us they got sent as the Master was scared of meeting Mr R again. They were allowed on the lane but not on the land.

I have never been tempted to try the bloodhound hunting as the Master put me off the idea. Perhaps now he has gone I would like it? I do not know.

I too have known Masters and huntsmen with few social or neighbourly skills - usually they are kept away from situations where they are going to actively upset anyone but for several years now we have had great people and good hunting neighbours so our local farmers and graziers are generous and open to the hunt. In several of the more remote locations we are given a hugely warm welcome and are often given food and drink spontaneously. Last season a very elderly farmer who hadn't wanted to hunt for years got on so well with our huntsman in advance that he brought in his old pony and came along for a few hours. I loved talking to him and his family were astounded at how much fun horse and rider seemed to have. I think the old boy might have needed a hot bath and stiff drink later on though!!
 

palo1

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I don't hunt any more since both local drag packs folded, but I have looked into starting again since my local "trail" hunt finally seems to have realised fox hunting genuinely is against the law.

But every time I think about it, and by heck Joe will make a cracking hunter, I remember just how many times I felt anxious about the impact that the hunt was having on the lives of other people. I think the sad fact is that we now live in too crowded a country for hunting to go on except in the most under-populated areas.

The inability of die hard hunters to recognise (ETA and take responsibility for) their impact on other people's lives really frustrates me.
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Good news that you have some confidence in your local trail hunt. :) If they are good then there shouldn't be a negative impact on those around you and you may find that other local people aren't so worried. You may well be right too about hunting only being fair/reasonable in less populated areas.
 

Fred66

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But why do the rights of the hunt to cause disruption come above the rights of the owner/tenant to enjoy their land peacefully? Why should they have to just put up and shut up and watch their animals ‘razz around the field’, and make all these extra efforts to accommodate the hunt when it has nothing to do with them? No other organised horse sport has the same direct impact on people’s property and animals.
This is why the hunt have to be whiter than white. Sadly, this thread shows how often they fail to live up to those standards. It’s a real shame.
Obviously if the hunt is trespassing they don’t have the right. However if they are on public roads, byways or bridle paths or are on private land with permission then they have every right to be there.
Why should you be able to dictate what others are doing on land that doesn’t belong to you?
 

ycbm

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Good news that you have some confidence in your local trail hunt. :) If they are good then there shouldn't be a negative impact on those around you and you may find that other local people aren't so worried. You may well be right too about hunting only being fair/reasonable in less populated areas.

My bolding.

Oh heavens Palo, you really seem to have absolutely no idea how hunts within easy travel of large numbers of horse owners operate, or you are blind to it.

This is how it goes.

Dozens of big vehicles turn up to small local roads and cause traffic chaos while they are parking, often blocking roads so that lorries, buses, fire appliances and sometimes even bigger 4x4 can't get through and so that locals have trouble accessing their own driveways.

Sometimes there is parking on verges, leaving serious and unsightly damage for the rest of the winter.

The field crowd into a local pub removing any chance of a local from getting their normal quiet drink and/or lunch on a Saturday morning, if they can even get into the car park. The field are excited, boisterous and noisy. They fill the pub.

The meet is held and then left, leaving masses of horse poo from excited horses all over the place.

During the meet, horses in fields that are passed often get over excited and risk damage to themselves.

Drivers on major roads get caught behind up to a hundred horses, causing a massive tailback. Drivers on minor roads face long delays.

Hounds run onto roads causing near collisions and are sometimes injured or killed themselves. Stock is sometimes killed (I've personally seen a lamb killed by hounds).

Footpaths are ridden down (sometimes with landowner permission, sometimes without) by a hoard of riders. Walkers using those paths are forced off the path into whatever refuge they can take. Those walking dogs often appear terrified of an approaching pack of hounds.

Damage is caused to wet footpaths, bridleways and verges by the field's horses, sometimes making that path unusable by others and/or the verge unsightly for some time.

At the end of the meet, roads are blocked by people washing down their horses before loading.

People who don't leave immediately or have no groom to take the horse home then go into the pub and leave exhausted horses rewarded by standing in a lorry stall while they have a great, noisy, excited, and by now sweaty, muddy, chat about how the day went. Preventing another lot of locals from having their usual quiet late Saturday afternoon drink/ meal.

I loved hunting, it was some of the most fun I've had in my whole life. But THAT is the reality. Not every time, not all on one day, but too often. There is no other leisure activity, cycling included, that demands that level of tolerance by non participants.
 

palo1

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My bolding.

Oh heavens Palo, you really seem to have absolutely no idea how hunts within easy travel of large numbers of horse owners operate, or you are blind to it.

This is how it goes.

Dozens of big vehicles turn up to small local roads and cause traffic chaos while they are parking, often blocking roads so that lorries, buses, fire appliances and sometimes even bigger 4x4 can't get through and so that locals have trouble accessing their own driveways.

Sometimes there is parking on verges, leaving serious and unsightly damage for the rest of the winter.

The field crowd into a local pub removing any chance of a local from getting their normal quiet drink and/or lunch on a Saturday morning, if they can even get into the car park. The field are excited, boisterous and noisy. They fill the pub.

The meet is held and then left, leaving masses of horse poo from excited horses all over the place.

During the meet, horses in fields that are passed often get over excited and risk damage to themselves.

Drivers on major roads get caught behind up to a hundred horses, causing a massive tailback. Drivers on minor roads face long delays.

Hounds run onto roads causing near collisions and are sometimes injured or killed themselves. Stock is sometimes killed (I've personally seen a lamb killed by hounds).

Footpaths are ridden down (sometimes with landowner permission, sometimes without) by a hoard of riders. Walkers using those paths are forced off the path into whatever refuge they can take. Those walking dogs often appear terrified of an approaching pack of hounds.

Damage is caused to wet footpaths, bridleways and verges by the field's horses, sometimes making that path unusable by others and/or the verge unsightly for some time.

At the end of the meet, roads are blocked by people washing down their horses before loading.

People who don't leave immediately or have no groom to take the horse home then go into the pub and leave exhausted horses rewarded by standing in a lorry stall while they have a great, noisy, excited, and by now sweaty, muddy, chat about how the day went. Preventing another lot of locals from having their usual quiet late Saturday afternoon drink/ meal.

I loved hunting, it was some of the most fun I've had in my whole life. But THAT is the reality. Not every time, not all on one day, but too often. There is no other leisure activity, cycling included, that demands that level of tolerance by non participants.

Oh well, don't go then! It's just not remotely like that here, nor any hunt I have visited within the last 7 or 8 years. But yeah...
 

smolmaus

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Oh well, don't go then!
That's the point though, members of the public don't get a choice about whether they participate or not?

I've never been hunting myself, the only local one I know of closed up shop years ago (so no real dog in this fight (hunt?) so to speak) but when it was still running the experience as a someone living in the area was almost exactly what ycbm described.
 

Chianti

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I've got to say I'm kind of with you here.
If there was a forum called 'horse and matador' in which, there was a bullfighting section I bet it would have no members, just a tirade of abuse.

I never normally post on these threads and I've noticed many other hunt supporters, who are very active in other areas of the forum, avoid these discussions too.
I guess hunting is one of those issues where there is no middle ground.

At the same time I have to say there are more less experienced owners on H&H than there ever used to be. Not a criticism as we all started somewhere but just an observation, which also fits with the general trend and may have something to do with the anti-hunt vibe. I totally accept that you can be a horse owner of 50 + years and disagree with hunting but I would bet that overall there is more antagonism towards hunting in the newer generation of horse owners.

II still love the forum but it does have a very different feel compared to say 10 years ago.

I'm an experienced horse owner -30+ years- but I no longer support hunting. My views have been anti and pro over the years. I opposed it in it's old format but could still appreciate that landowners and farmers supported it. When the law changed and trail hunting was introduced I thought that was a good compromise. However, there have been so many reported instances of hunts ignoring the law that I now think it should be banned completely. If people want to ride fast and jump then there are drag and mock hunts to take part in.
 
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