suebou
Well-Known Member
Please take five minutes to look at FB Mother Trucking Eventers post. The author was there, AT, the MT lesson and puts forward a different pov.
I’m not sure what to think….
- Thread starter Mistletoeandawine
- Start date
suebou
Well-Known Member
Oops, someone beat me to it!
TPO
🤠🏴
She has written her take and I wouldn't say that it makes the actions acceptable just because she, and others there, found it not only acceptable but funny.
Plenty of people were there beside Hitler and I can't see myself agreeing with their take simply because they were there!
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Whereas I'd be less keen to agree with those that weren't there at all. You know, like they do at actual trials with witnesses VS opinions.
TPO
🤠🏴
But alas even if you weren't there you can watch actual unedited video footage where you can SEE what is happening with your own eyes. Amazing that.
If you want to pur your stock in a social media blogger who thinks thatthose "techniques" used to force the horse off a water jump are fine/acceptable/funny crack on.
The sickness is epidemic, but ya know, there's worse happening in the world to other horses ?
Edited because "crack on" posted twice
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EMSPony
Active Member
Patterdale
Well-Known Member
But it wasn’t unedited.
Anyway the horse went in. I bet it went in the next 20 times too. Rather than a gradual escalation of issues, stress and unhappiness every time it encountered something and said ‘no thanks.’
Might not be the way you’d have done it but I bet it saved this horse a lot of inexperienced stress in the long term.
It’s like the saying about the plumber who charges £200 for mending a boiler by hitting it with a hammer. ‘£200!? Says the client. All you did is hit it.’
‘Ah but I only charged a fiver for hitting it. The other £195 was for my 40 years experience allowing me to know exactly when and where.’
If only they HAD posted the unedited version…
Cortez
Tough but Fair
But funnily enough the account of the "I was there" person chimes really well with the video as seen by me. Other interpretations may differ, but I m used to trusting my own eyes.
TPO
🤠🏴
Where was the editing in the video Red posted?
Admittedly it wasn't the whole lesson but 1) his actions regardless of when or why they happened are unacceptable actions against a horse even if it was "only" what happened in the video red shared 2) from the statement by the blogger Mother Trucker she implies that the whole lesson consisted of "hiding in the bushes" and running out to attack and scare the horse off the jump into the water. I fail to see how that would help his case in any way.
AmyMay
Situation normal
But it was going in, and doing the whole thing rather sweetly. So I fail to see the reason for what MT did - regardless of how you actually feel about what he did.
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Patterdale
Well-Known Member
It wasn’t going in on the video I saw so I must have missed that one.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
We will fail to agree on this point; it was getting progressively less and less forward and had ground to a halt.
DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
It's interesting actually, there are some horses that you can simply humour into going forwards when they're napping (not that I would have believed it until I had one). My Arty mare was very nappy about water when she was younger, particularly water that she could hear but not see. On one occasion I came to a ramp bridge over a flowing drainage ditch and she stopped, I applied leg pressure and she said no. Flat no in that way they do that lets you know there is no discussion to be had. And then for some reason I stroked her neck, leant forwards and ruffled the hair between her ears, stroked her ear and said 'come on silly, it's just a bit of water', and quite spontaneously she started up walking and tip toes over it without me giving any further aid.
I assumed it was a fluke but I've used the same trick in lots of situations since and it reliably gets forward motion again ?.
No idea if it is something to do with my relationship with her or her personality or what...probably a combination I guess.
stangs
Well-Known Member
Further comments from the rider:
DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
That was just because it was asked a different question I think. It was the step down rather than the ramp that made it finally say no rather than just hesitating.
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
I actually feel sorry for both parties.
I think MT was out of order, but on a scale of things, it was not exactly out and out cruelty. It was abuse of a whip, or stick, it was not good training, but not cruelty, IMO. I feel that he is being judged by what is different already from a couple of years ago. It has changed rapidly just this year due to the hunting pony/kick video and the drop kick cat video. I think MT will have reflected. I don't think he was cruel like the event rider I saw. He was silly, thoughtless and ineffectual. I think it is good that we all have a check in our behaviour, good that we have a discussion, but I think I am done discussing MT now.
I also feel sorry for the owner/rider. I won't put details, but it took all of 5 minutes with a couple of searches to find and confirm who she is. I don't know why she suddenly put this clip up after 2 years. Because of the music and caption, I don't think it was because she really thought it was abuse. I see she is one of these people who do BE90/100 and set themselves up as XXX Eventing for likes. I suspect publicity is why they have done this. And it has backfired in a way that they didn't expect.
I have done commenting on her too.
I think both parties have much to think about, as do we all.
If more info comes to light, maybe I will have something else to say. Buy likely not on this pair.
I think that change in general is coming, and that is good. It is a fine line though, when change is happening and people need time to adjust. Some abuse, like the one I saw, was always cruelty, whatever age you live in.
I am glad that I grew up in a time when any mistakes I made were less public. Social media certainly has plusses and minuses.
I think MT was out of order, but on a scale of things, it was not exactly out and out cruelty. It was abuse of a whip, or stick, it was not good training, but not cruelty, IMO. I feel that he is being judged by what is different already from a couple of years ago. It has changed rapidly just this year due to the hunting pony/kick video and the drop kick cat video. I think MT will have reflected. I don't think he was cruel like the event rider I saw. He was silly, thoughtless and ineffectual. I think it is good that we all have a check in our behaviour, good that we have a discussion, but I think I am done discussing MT now.
I also feel sorry for the owner/rider. I won't put details, but it took all of 5 minutes with a couple of searches to find and confirm who she is. I don't know why she suddenly put this clip up after 2 years. Because of the music and caption, I don't think it was because she really thought it was abuse. I see she is one of these people who do BE90/100 and set themselves up as XXX Eventing for likes. I suspect publicity is why they have done this. And it has backfired in a way that they didn't expect.
I have done commenting on her too.
I think both parties have much to think about, as do we all.
If more info comes to light, maybe I will have something else to say. Buy likely not on this pair.
I think that change in general is coming, and that is good. It is a fine line though, when change is happening and people need time to adjust. Some abuse, like the one I saw, was always cruelty, whatever age you live in.
I am glad that I grew up in a time when any mistakes I made were less public. Social media certainly has plusses and minuses.
HBB
Well-Known Member
Did the lesson take place at Auchlishie, Kirriemuir (Scotland)?
This video is nearly 2 mins long and shows the run up to it being beaten.
This video is nearly 2 mins long and shows the run up to it being beaten.
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ester
Not slacking multitasking
but would it not have been better to school the rider on how to get it keeping forwards on each round? Given that there isn't going to be a handy person with a stealth bit of bush in real life?
He also says once more, when he didn't really mean once more. As a rider I would have turned off the gas having done it once more.
AdorableAlice
Well-Known Member
I can't see the point of booking a horse into a clinic with an expensive high profile trainer when you haven't had the common sense to teach the horse the very basics of go forward when asked and step into a puddle. Why waste money taking an unprepared horse to a top trainer. There is always 2 sides to a story but the video isn't pleasant. The ability to film everything needs to be remembered these days, it was filming that caught Lyn Russell out not so long ago.
Going forwards and stepping into water is basic training, done on the long line and then under saddle at 3 and 4. We are fortunate as we have a ford nearby and they spend plenty of time paddling around in it with a buddy to give a lead and then alone. Get the basics in and the horse has a solid start in life.
If you are lucky enough to have good training, always prepare the horse and yourself as much as you possibly can to get the most out of your lesson is what I have learnt over the years.
Going forwards and stepping into water is basic training, done on the long line and then under saddle at 3 and 4. We are fortunate as we have a ford nearby and they spend plenty of time paddling around in it with a buddy to give a lead and then alone. Get the basics in and the horse has a solid start in life.
If you are lucky enough to have good training, always prepare the horse and yourself as much as you possibly can to get the most out of your lesson is what I have learnt over the years.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Glad we cleared that bit up I was getting confused by all the edited comments too.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Who knows? I rather think he lost his temper with the rider and maybe he had told her multiple times already? Speculation is not useful though.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Speculation on what? Bit confused by that comment mine was a genuine question that if I was going for a ridden lesson I would expect the instructor to be teaching me to ride the horse, if I wanted the horse educating I'd put them on top. Is that not usual?
eahotson
Well-Known Member
It makes grim watching.
southerncomfort
Well-Known Member
I'm not an event rider or trainer. Not even close.
But in my experience (40+ years), the very best riders and trainers have happy, willing partners who will do anything the rider asks because they've always been treated fairly and considerately.
If a horse refuses to do as its asked it either doesn't understand the question or its afraid. In neither of these scenarios will the stick help unless your only goal is 'get this horse in the water this one time at any cost'.
A more helpful solution would be to break the question down and take the time it takes for the horse to understand the question and feel brave enough to want to try. For me, unless the horse is allowed to think it through and make the decision to try for himself, you might solve the 'how do I get this horse in the water right now as quickly as possible' question, but you've not solved the 'how do I help this horse be brave and unafraid and happily pop in and out of the water' question.
I think people forget how frightening entering water can be for a prey animal, and what a wonderful feeling it is when your horse overcomes its fears and tries its heart out simply because it trusts its rider.
I'd far rather that than my horse do something simply because he's been bullied in to it and fears the repercussions if he doesn't. Where's the joy, pleasure and pride in that?
It's a basic respect for the horse. It should underpin every single thing we do with our horses every day.
But in my experience (40+ years), the very best riders and trainers have happy, willing partners who will do anything the rider asks because they've always been treated fairly and considerately.
If a horse refuses to do as its asked it either doesn't understand the question or its afraid. In neither of these scenarios will the stick help unless your only goal is 'get this horse in the water this one time at any cost'.
A more helpful solution would be to break the question down and take the time it takes for the horse to understand the question and feel brave enough to want to try. For me, unless the horse is allowed to think it through and make the decision to try for himself, you might solve the 'how do I get this horse in the water right now as quickly as possible' question, but you've not solved the 'how do I help this horse be brave and unafraid and happily pop in and out of the water' question.
I think people forget how frightening entering water can be for a prey animal, and what a wonderful feeling it is when your horse overcomes its fears and tries its heart out simply because it trusts its rider.
I'd far rather that than my horse do something simply because he's been bullied in to it and fears the repercussions if he doesn't. Where's the joy, pleasure and pride in that?
It's a basic respect for the horse. It should underpin every single thing we do with our horses every day.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
I agree but most of us don't come from a horsey background so we have to rely on trainers.When I wanted to do some driving I went to the Parkers.I told them when I booked and they said they preferred teaching people from scratch.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Who knows why that rider chose to take her horse to a MT clinic. If he's happy to take money off lower level riders, then he ought to be prepared to teach them properly. Stickiness at the water jump is hardly unusual.
MT kept telling the rider 'one more time'. The horse and rider were getting longer and more strung out as they kept thinking that they'd finished.
I was always taught that the quality of the jump depends on the quality of the approach. This pair were not geared up sufficiently. I was waiting for MT to ask her to get the horse engaged and more forwards, but he didn't.
If the rider later posted the video with a funny soundtrack in an initial bid to get laughs, then I despair.
Poor horse.
MT kept telling the rider 'one more time'. The horse and rider were getting longer and more strung out as they kept thinking that they'd finished.
I was always taught that the quality of the jump depends on the quality of the approach. This pair were not geared up sufficiently. I was waiting for MT to ask her to get the horse engaged and more forwards, but he didn't.
If the rider later posted the video with a funny soundtrack in an initial bid to get laughs, then I despair.
Poor horse.
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SatansLittleHelper
Well-Known Member
At what point do we decide that a horse is being "naughty"? I used to assume horses not complying was naughtiness but over the last few years of learning, reading and watching more I have come to understand that they simply don't have the capacity to be naughty. There is ALWAYS a reason.
If you had swum a few lengths of a pool and then hesitated about getting back in and your coach towel whipped you til you had no choice but to get in to avoid it, would that make you feel more confident??
If you had swum a few lengths of a pool and then hesitated about getting back in and your coach towel whipped you til you had no choice but to get in to avoid it, would that make you feel more confident??
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Sorry, didn't clarify very well: by speculation I meant trying to guess what was going on beforehand. I completely agree that the instructor getting on would be my preference.
palo1
Well-Known Member
I've watched this a few times now. The horse is clearly ok about going into the water as he does that earlier in the clip quite happily, but he/she doesn't want to do the step down into water. Ideally I think you wouldn't book onto a class like this unless you were fairly confident that small steps down into and up out of water wouldn't be an issue. You might spend some time doing that in hand and booking a 1-1 or course hire if that were an issue. Maybe the rider was unaware of this issue or hadn't known how to deal with it, hence this clinic session. Just before the whipping bit, the horse comes round looking ok but then 3 or 4 strides out of the step the rider takes a pull - maybe because she was worried about the horse stopping and she wanted to get a bit more 'control' to deal with that; the horse looks reasonably forward if not actively cooperative at this point to my view. I have had horses evade in exactly this way and I think it is quite common; apparantly going forward but either lacking in confidence/committment/support to actually deal with what is coming next. And that is a horrible feeling tbh so I understand why, at the last minute the rider seems to want to control the speed/impulsion/whatever. But inevitably in this kind of scenario she ends up riding really defensively and the horse is obviously both not 'confident' about the ask, nor is he/she particularly trying to do what is asked. The horse is then left to decide what to do as the rider has 'lost control' as it were. Possibly the horse WOULD have launched over the little step if left to his own devices if the rider hadn't taken a pull - maybe the rider didn't feel confident about that; who knows? Once she had taken a pull though the horse put the anchors on and the rider's lower leg came back and she wasn't able to be at all effective. The horse is on his own and just doesn't want to step down; maybe he is tired, not confident, doesn't 'understand't the jumping down bit? MT smacks the horse 9 times before the horse and rider sort of dribble over the edge of the step; it's just a bit crap really - the horse has not popped or jumped down but felt, clearly he/she didn't have much choice. It's not great, it's certainly not skilled training nor good learning for horse or rider but in some circles it might constitute 'success'; the horse eventually, really badly, did what was 'required' (ie go down the step into water).
I have no idea why MT would do that - he clearly has far more skill and empathy with horses than this suggests! Perhaps he couldn't tackle the riding skills or the combination of rider and horse difficulty/lack of communication and partnership at this point - who knows? It's really weak and doesn't constitute 'training' but I do think the rider has some responsibility to prepare the horse for a clinic too. I feel for the rider as well as the horse. Maybe she should have got the horse in a better canter by circling again (before taking a pull) but perhaps she felt ok till she didn't or didn't have time to think/feel what was going on. I don't feel that sorry for MT but perhaps he too was struggling to co-ordinate a response to this particular scenario at this moment. We are all human, fallible, prey to others expectations and pressures.