Introducing Toby

[Foxglove]

? I think that must mean we have a spy from your insurance company (maybe all of them) on the forum. There are only a couple of thousand active users who post, if that. They can't be searching HHO for every claim to see if they can spot a video that has the user name of one of their clients, can they

As part of my job I deal with all types of insurers on a day to day basis. They have teams that trawl the internet looking for anything that can reduce the cost of a payout. Given the increase in claims made under equine insurance policies I am not surprised to hear they have now extended this behaviour.

 

[Trouper]

As a veteran of several operations and physio attentions, I can attest that re-hab hurts!! I hope that this is just that scenario playing out for Toby and, ultimately, there will be progress. But I am very glad that you have gone back to Tom to give him the opportunity to consider the matter and give you more advice. Fingers crossed.

 

[splashgirl45]

good luck with sorting out his problems, he will be a sought after horse when you get him right..

 

[Marigold4]

It’s the exact treatment plan for mine, too.

Same treatment plan and eyes level with hips for me - although you can argue that plan would be good for any horse

 

[Michen]

Same treatment plan and eyes level with hips for me - although you can argue that plan would be good for any horse

Defo!

 

[ycbm]

Same treatment plan and eyes level with hips for me - although you can argue that plan would be good for any horse

I don't really get the eyes level with hips thing, it's not how horses move naturally, even ones bred for it. My friend trains western quarter horses and has to teach them to go like that.

Can someone explain in a few words why it's supposed to be so good for rehabbing? Perhaps I should start a new thread.
.

 

[TPO]

Eyes level with point of hip = poll highest point and abdominals should be engaged lifting the back

QHs do carry themselves naturally with a low head carriage and lifted back. Their eyes would be lower than hips naturally. When cutting cattle they go even lower in front.

Chip looks like a ginger llama worh a stubby neck until he moves and genes take over.

Back to eyes level with point of hip. It's harder (impossible?) for them to be inverted in this position. Its simple; not to be confused with easy.

For a horse that has developed the incorrect muscles it will be hard. Much like us doing a difficult pilates position or even something more intense like holding a squat.

Having never yet seen a pessoa used correctly its fair to saw that a lot of people dont have an eye for correct posture and dont seem motivated to learn.

There is SO much that can be done in a walk and even a halt yet so many are in a rush to get trotting and get working over raised poles. Raised poles are so tiring for a horse and often used without actually paying atye ton to how the horse is moving. Is it dropping a hip, over rotating, engaging abs, flexing hocks equally, so on and so forth. Another reason why walk is better- easier to see everything!

 

[ycbm]

Their eyes would be lower than hips naturally

They aren't when loose in the field and moving around, I'm not sure any horses are. It isn't a natural way for most horses to move, from what I see.
.

 

[milliepops]

But with a rider on we're so far from what is natural, I'm not sure I understand why that is relevant?

 

[Marigold4]

They aren't when loose in the field and moving around, I'm not sure any horses are. It isn't a natural way for most horses to move, from what I see.
.

I think it's because by keeping eyes level with hips, you are encouraging a horse to work in a way that uses his back and therefore builds the right muscles to carry a rider. So not natural - but then nor is carrying a weight on your back. I'm no expert though!

 

[ycbm]

But with a rider on we're so far from what is natural, I'm not sure I understand why that is relevant?

I just want to understand why rehab recommendation is to put the horse into a position which it wouldn't normally choose for itself.
.

 

[TPO]

They aren't when loose in the field and moving around, I'm not sure any horses are. It isn't a natural way for most horses to move, from what I see.
.

Like I said, when Chip isnt being an llama that is how he moves about the field naturally especially when going faster than a trot.

He's not a freak; my friends QHs all move the same in their fields and so do all the horses (& youngstock) at the studs I follow on social media.

 

[Roxylola]

Its engaging the abdominals. Its more than just long and low, they've got to be engaged in their core as well. Again, I understood the reasoning, and it was explained better to me, but it was months ago now and I haven't got all the details at the front of my mind.
Basically where I've been asking Charlie to load his quarters more and come off the forehand he fundamentally struggled to do it. Now I'm not constantly correcting him hes better able to sit.
It wasn't a lack of correct work in his case, more that his body didn't have the core to support the work.
I don't know how much if any sense that makes

 

[milliepops]

I don't think it's particularly extreme is it? It's like a sort of gentle stretch to prelim type of frame..if you've got a horse that has been accustomed to hollowing or letting the back hang like a hammock then it would feel very different, but for a horse in averagely correct ridden work I don't think eyes level with hips is a strange posture to adopt.

 

[TPO]

I just want to understand why rehab recommendation is to put the horse into a position which it wouldn't normally choose for itself.
.

Its rehab; it's a position to strengthen the horse. Neither is it a fixed position but something to aim for.

So many people ride and see inverted horses that arent truly working over their back and think that is correct.

It's also a position that if done correctly means that the horse *has* to be working from behind & engaging their core. Plus they arent on the forehand

 

[Michen]

Can someone post a photo of a horse in that kind of frame that he means, eyes level with hips?

 

[milliepops]

I'm guessing as I've not been to him, but this horse is helpfully boney, perhaps a client can confirm if this is right or not.

 

[Roxylola]

Yeah, looks about it to me

 

[TPO]

Can someone post a photo of a horse in that kind of frame that he means, eyes level with hips?

From a very quick google







Dont mean this bad but just checking that point of hip has been correctly identified? It's the Tuber Coxae.

 

[Michen]

Aha thank you. But isn’t that just a normal frame that we all want our horses in (unless they are super fancy!)

ETA the photos from TPo I mean

 

[milliepops]

I'd say my pic shows a lower frame than I'd typically use in ridden work of a healthy horse routinely, I want the ability to put the horse there but wouldn't work them that low in general.. as they train on a bit and become more connected they tend to come up progressively. Jmho.

 

[milliepops]

Just seen your edit. I'd say the canter photo is more of a stretching frame than a working one.

Eta But.... yes. The others are what we'd all want of a normal horse. However, how often do you really see that picture, abs raised, topline soft and reaching, throat open etc... ?

 

[TPO]

Aha thank you. But isn’t that just a normal frame that we all want our horses in (unless they are super fancy!)

ETA the photos from TPo I mean

I would say so, that's why I cant understand the questioning of it as it isnt an extreme frame.

Having said that it isnt always that common to see ridden horses in front of the leg and working over their back with abs engaged. There is lots of behind and above the contact and false outlines that look almost on the bit but the back is inverted.

It's not something that I can do consistently but it is what I aim for overall (but obviously work briefly in all different frames) and "riding in the rectangle". I think it's an easy thing to visualise because eyes and bony point are easy to see and know when they are close to alignment. It's an easier instruction than "engage abs, lift back, stepping under, poll highest point, underside of neck soft, etc, etc" and easier to see!

 

[Michen]

Thanks yes I more meant the palomino.

So I’m more confused now as all those frames are fairly different, so does he mean the palomino frame or the stretchy frame that you’ve posted ?

 

[milliepops]

. I think it's an easy thing to visualise because eyes and bony point are easy to see and know when they are close to alignment. It's an easier instruction than "engage abs, lift back, stepping under, poll highest point, underside of neck soft, etc, etc" and easier to see!

Yeah I think it's a clever thing because of this aspect. When we're all chipping away at stuff alone at home you sometimes need something measurable to tell if you're in the right ballpark or not. Feel isn't always easy to develop especially if its a new way of going . But you can tell if it looks right, if you're given some identifiable markers.

It possibly doesn't matter hugely michen, if the other landmarks are achieved. (Core engaged, back swinging, hindlegs under, neck reaching etc) from the photos it appears that the difference between the palo and the canter is just how much the rider has allowed in front.
But again, I would have thought it best to drop him a line if it wasn't clear at the time?

 

[Roxylola]

I've been going for something like the last photo by TPO, the orange stretchy canter horse

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I do some work with my horse sans lunge line or lead rope in our covered round pen. He naturally carries himself low and relaxed. He is also this way when lunged in a halter outside. When I am next to him, and ask him to reverse (freely, no later or lead rope) he also reverses with his head lowered (about level with hips). When we hack on a loose rein, he is also carrying his eyes level with his hips when he's relaxed and swinging along at a good walk.

In the beginning of our rides I often start out in a lower posture, so again, eyes level-ish with hips. Stretching low and over his back. Then his posture changes and the front half of his body lifts as we do more "advanced" work. At the end we go back to a lower stretch at the trot and walk when cooling out.

He's not necessarily downhill, he's not really made to go downward and out, but it's useful to work the horse in different postures, I think. I often do reverse sets with or without poles and keep his eyes leveled with his hips. I feel his hind end engage, back round up, and abs being used. Also, when a horse has their head lowered/level with hips it promotes relaxation in the body and mind. It is best to do rehab work with a relaxed, receptive, yet engaged body.

I have seen people use a higher head carriage of sorts and different posture when reversing then going into piaffe, but that's a whole different thing with a different end goal.

To me, it's not hugely unnatural. Then again, unnatural to a certain being does not necessarily equal harmful.

I attached a few photos of my horse (got my brave pants on this morning) in a lower posture that I think illustrates eyes roughly around hip level. It doesn't look totally crazy or anything, and at liberty, when relaxed, they sort of fall into this position I find.

I don't work him in this lower mode for very long under saddle, but I think it's useful that he can do it and have different settings and postures. He also has a nice free and swinging walk, compared to the more sewing machine style he once had (but he can also revert to sewing machine when he's being a drama Llama).

 

[ycbm]

Two of you have questioned why this is being considered extreme. I never said extreme, it's not extreme.

I also still don't understand why people are being told to ride their horses in that frame, all the time, for three months.

I get the short periods, IF the hind end is kept under it raises the loins. It prevents the horse from being ridden hollow. I use it myself, but as a stretch not a full time way of working.

I still don't completely understand the rehab instructions, and worse I suspect many people interpret them as "slop along on a loose rein for 3 months". The first picture, of a horse loose in the field, looks to me as if it's dragging itself around by its forehand.
.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I do know someone that rides their horse in this "frame" nearly all the time. The horse has kissing spine (and a myriad of other issues, tbh) and this posture has actually been shown to keep the spaces between the vertebrae more open or preventing the condition from becoming worse. I have a video about it with x-rays but it's in German. It also promotes stronger muscles where that particular horse needs them and builds a good foundation for him so he can do a little bit of work in another position.


Does the average healthy horse need to do it to that extent? No. So it depends on the horse, it's condition/health issues, and the end goal.

Some people might interpret it as slopping around so it is important that the vet who prescribes the elaborates and shows the client what they need to actually do. You'll always have some level of misinterpretation and poor execution though. That sort of thing just tends to happen with humans left to their own devices.

 

[TPO]

AFAIK no one had been told to ride their horse in that position for 3mths. Even if thay had it's a much safer and more beneficial frame than the frames that many are ridden/lunged in.

Also the horses "prescribed" this work are, on the whole based on HHO posts, already comprised in one way or another because the owners have identified issues. It isn't too different from rehab exercises given to humans. No one is expected to move in certain ways forever but while building & rehabbing issues patients often have to be very aware of how they hold themselves and move as they reprogramme themselves.

Anyone unsure of the instructions given to them by a qualified professional who has treated the horse should contact them for clarification in the first instance. That is more valuable than opinions from faceless entities on the internet. For example my assumption would be that the initial few weeks would be on the ground and walk only yet that doesnt appear to be what is being done as ridden trot is happening. So that's one example of how my perception would be incorrect in this instance and why the giver of then instructions should be contacted.

Really quite taken aback by some of the things that have been said and implied about Tom Beech on this thread and the other. No one is made to go to him or hand over money; it's free choice. AFAIA his clinics are for vet osteo/chiro not work ups and not second opinion work. All of those I'm sure he does if pre arranged but generally speaking he's not about to start a full lameness investigation.

Again, it's been a while since I've read his website but I'm sure he does work ups, vetting and referral work if that if what is booked but anyone rocking up is for the osteo/chiro treatments.