It happened again.

[J_sarahd]

I think it might be worth starting performance investigations and having a work up done. They might do a bone scan to give them an indication of where to start.

And I know I bleat on about it a lot but I’d also query suspensory issues given the reluctance to go forwards.

That will be one of the next things following the scope. I know the scope is essentially to just rule out ulcers but like people said, even if she has ulcers, I need to find the cause.

I'm afraid your fears don't surprise me at all JS, and I think you should, if you can, get her to a hospital for a work up with a real orthopedic specialist. It could save you a lot of money. A friend of mine took in a mare who had been bucking occasionally, expecting a huge bill starting at the back end. As the horse walked in the specialist said "let's start at the neck" and found the problem immediately.
.

I think I will. I remember you suggesting something similar last year and I really, really wish I’d investigated further then but the ulcers were found and the vet kind of said they were definitely the cause. I’ll find an orthopedic specialist near me to take her to.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I think a proper workup is a very good idea you really want to get to the bottom of it now.

I was lucky when both of mine were not right I was with Rossdales anyway so they both went to Newmarket for work ups.

 

[ycbm]

I think I will. I remember you suggesting something similar last year and I really, really wish I’d investigated further then but the ulcers were found and the vet kind of said they were definitely the cause. I’ll find an orthopedic specialist near me to take her to.

I think the problem is that ulcers produce a particularly sharp pain (acid in a wound) which is what creates the bad behaviour. So vets cure the bad behaviour and don't look for what caused the ulcers in the first place, much lower grade but persistent pain.

I hope you get an easy, quick answer that's resolvable.
.

 

[J_sarahd]

Thank you. I will keep this thread updated as and when I get more information/do more investigations.

 

[J_sarahd]

So, I barely got any sleep last night and I’ve been stressed all morning but I got a call from the vets about 20 minutes ago.

They scoped her this morning and there were no ulcers. This is good as it obviously means my management of her is good, especially going into winter with less grazing etc. As I said before, I wasn’t ever entirely convinced it was ulcers but I guess we had to rule them out.

They scanned her ovaries again and nothing to report there, which - again - is good.

So, this afternoon, they’re basically checking neck, back and legs, which I’m hoping will give us some answers.

I feel very emotionally drained and I just want to go into bed and cry, but unfortunately I’m having to work. I know she will be fine and I know I’m absolutely doing the right thing, but it is hard and I’m sure anyone who has been in my position will agree.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Thinking of you @J_sarahd it’s not a nice feeling ‘not knowing’ and waiting for that call.

You’re definitely doing the right thing. I know how you feel with not sleeping and being stressed, you just want to curl into a ball until you get some news. Feels like I’ve been going through that a lot in the last 12 months.

Hoping you have some answers today

 

[humblepie]

That’s good news so far and hope all the rest is too x

 

[sbloom]

Interesting to follow. I ride a Connemara twice a week who presents very similar. Fine on lunge but completely shuts down under saddle. Happy to hack ears pricked and willing. But in the school it’s a flat no. Had many investigations, SI injected, stifle surgery, ulcer meds. Vets thinking he is taking the p and needs pushing through. His owner is a bit soft on him and has allowed him to get his own way, I am a strong rider but can’t decide if it’s pure attitude or inability. Wish i knew the answer,

I'd be finding another vet. Strong riders, "riding through", can make a horse look comfortable/sound, doesn't mean they are sound. Horses have no motivation to take the p, though some might take the short cut offered more than others would, it's almost always confusion, pain or some level of inability.

That will be one of the next things following the scope. I know the scope is essentially to just rule out ulcers but like people said, even if she has ulcers, I need to find the cause.



I think I will. I remember you suggesting something similar last year and I really, really wish I’d investigated further then but the ulcers were found and the vet kind of said they were definitely the cause. I’ll find an orthopedic specialist near me to take her to.

Ulcers are (nearly?) always secondary to another trigger, usually stress or pain.

Edited to add I would also get a second opinion on the saddle, it's highly likely to be playing a part. The Compact was often.(and still is) fitted to short backs, which are often flatter/wider so need a different tree shape, whereas it's actually compact for the petite rider. I won't even get into whether that's really a thing (as opposed to fitting each rider as an individual with regard to pelvic shape etc....).

 

[J_sarahd]

Edited to add I would also get a second opinion on the saddle, it's highly likely to be playing a part. The Compact was often.(and still is) fitted to short backs, which are often flatter/wider so need a different tree shape, whereas it's actually compact for the petite rider. I won't even get into whether that's really a thing (as opposed to fitting each rider as an individual with regard to pelvic shape etc....).

Thank you, I’ll go down the saddle route once I know more about what’s going on physically with her.

 

[J_sarahd]

I have an update and it’s one of the things I’ve dreaded.

So, she has kissing spine (he did tell me which processes but I felt like someone had punched me in the gut so didn’t take it in). He said he will medicate it tonight and if it doesn’t work then it’s something else and we need to figure it out. If the improvement is small, he suggests doing a ligament snip.

I’m picking her up tomorrow morning. I’m glad they’ve found a (hugely) possible answer but I’m also just completely gutted.

 

[ycbm]

JS I'm so sorry, but also pleased you found an answer and know it wasn't you, but her early life that did it.

Please don't be fooled by the word "snip". That operation is actually done with a chisel (I have a picture of the chisel in my horse's back if you want to see it) and part of its success is that it also denerves at the same time as severing the ligament. It only works if you do a comprehensive rehab and sometimes that rehab done first makes the op unnecessary.

Please also check that they have excluded hock problems, PSD and SI issues because those are often the primary cause of kissing spine and it's gutting to find that out after doing the kissing spines operation.
.

 

[scats]

JS I'm so sorry, but also pleased you found an answer and know it wasn't you, but her early life that did it.

Please don't be fooled by the word "snip". That operation is actually done with a chisel (I have a picture of the chisel in my horse's back if you want to see it) and part of its success is that it also denerves at the same time as severing the ligament. It only works if you do a comprehensive rehab and sometimes that rehab done first makes the op unnecessary.

Please also check that they have excluded hock problems, PSD and SI issues because those are often the primary cause of kissing spine and it's gutting to find that out after doing the kissing spines operation.
.

Good advice here and I’m so sorry to hear the news.
On a more positive note, my friends warmblood had the op and has returned to dressage.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Sorry to hear that but at least you know and lots of horses are fine after treatment so don't be too down about it.

My friends horse had the operation last year and she is out competing dressage with her now.

 

[J_sarahd]

Thank you guys - I’m mostly sad for her and the fact that she’s been in pain for a while. I knew I’d never sell her but this has made that an absolute definite and I’ll pts before I even think of selling her. I said to my friends that I didn’t care if they told me she could only be a happy hacker, just as long as she wasn’t in pain but I am a little bit sad that the plans I had for us (to eventually event) are a little more out of reach now.

I’m trying to not read too much about it and scare myself but the more success stories, the better please. I will throw myself completely into her rehab programme and really give her every single opportunity of making a full recovery without surgery.

 

[ycbm]

@sbloom can advise you on where to look for rehab

@ownedbyaconnie has a terrific post op success story

She's a lucky girl she came to you.
.

 

[Bernster]

That is really sad but I hope you get some hope from having a diagnosis and then you can come up with a treatment and rehab plan. I second getting full checks done as often Ks is secondary or linked to other issues so you want to avoid if possible addressing the KS but then you have other things to also work though. KS rehab can be quite full on and you don’t want it to make other things worse, or have to resolve those later on. I speak from personal experience!

 

[CanteringCarrot]

There is a kissing spine group on FB as well. I don't know how good or useful it may be to you, but lots of others that have gone through what you're going through.

 

[Bernster]

‘Horses with kissing spine’ is prob the better fb of the two that I am in,

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I’m so sorry to read this, but does part of you feel relieved? Because you knew something wasn’t right and now you potentially have the answer.

Keep this thread updated, I really hope she feels a lot better after the steroid

 

[J_sarahd]

She's a lucky girl she came to you.
.

This made me well up a bit - you can tell I’m feeling very fragile. Thank you. I’ve definitely made some mistakes with her in the past but I’m just so incredibly grateful for her. I’ll quite honestly do whatever it takes.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

@sbloom can advise you on where to look for rehab

@ownedbyaconnie has a terrific post op success story

She's a lucky girl she came to you.
.

Good references... Obac's pony did have a hock issue/arthritis as well, so that ties into it not always "just" being kissing spine.

Also, here's a link to the thread: https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/kissing-spine-to-centre-line.819720/page-2

 

[J_sarahd]

‘Horses with kissing spine’ is prob the better fb of the two that I am in,

Thank you - I’ll join that and have a look for some success stories. I might even post myself, once I’ve gathered my thoughts/its not so raw

I’m so sorry to read this, but does part of you feel relieved? Because you knew something wasn’t right and now you potentially have the answer.

Keep this thread updated, I really hope she feels a lot better after the steroid

Yes, definitely. There’s an answer and a plan - not quite sure yet what the plan is entirely but I’ll speak to my vet properly tomorrow about it all. I’ve also told my physio.

I definitely will - we’ve got a long journey ahead of us!

 

[McGrools]

To add some words of encouragement, my favourite racehorse I ride daily at work is a 7 y old 3mile hurdler, he is as fit as a fiddle and I would have never guessed he had ks as a younger horse. I would take him home in a heartbeat. I assume a lot of racehorses are similar.
My main understanding of KS is that the horses need to be kept fit and in work to keep core and top line strong. Which I guess would be the hardest part to maintain as a leisure rider.

 

[humblepie]

Just wanted to add all the very best and she is indeed lucky to have you.

 

[ycbm]

This made me well up a bit - you can tell I’m feeling very fragile. Thank you. I’ve definitely made some mistakes with her in the past but I’m just so incredibly grateful for her. I’ll quite honestly do whatever it takes.

I am sure you were surrounded by people telling you "she's just a thoroughbred, what do you expect" and "ride her through it".

I'm going to repeat it since you need it. She is a very lucky girl to have come to you, who listened to her. And even luckier that you aren't just going to abandon her because things have got difficult.

Give yourself several pats on the back. A bottle of gin might help too
.

 

[J_sarahd]

I am sure you were surrounded by people telling you "she's just a thoroughbred, what do you expect" and "ride her through it".

I'm going to repeat it since you need it. She is a very lucky girl to have come to you, who listened to her. And even luckier that you aren't just going to abandon her because things have got difficult.

Give yourself several pats on the back. A bottle of gin might help too
.

I’ve screenshotted that to look back on when I’m having a bad day!

 

[BACR]

I've ventured out of the only thread I ever post on (the exracers one) just to say I'm so sorry @J_sarahd , you're such a good owner to have listened to her. I have a friend that had one who's had the bone shave for KS, he's now grand and he's coming into a fitness program to event next year. Just wanted to add weight to them not all being a write off after KS diagnosis. Look after yourself as well, and as ycbm says, give yourself some credit.

 

[sbloom]

In my opinion the current best understanding of KS is that it comes as the result of a way of moving, and not an uncommon one. It's not "an injury" and, imo, isn't so much down to genetics, as it would be possible to have a horse genetically prone to it and yet be able to prevent it.

As I say, this movement pattern is SO common, you can see compromised movement at the very top of all disciplines, and the condition can be found in wild horses too apparently

So, it's highly likely that there are other niggles going on which may or may not need medical treatment. Common ones are hocks, suspensories, SI issues and front feet. On the subject of feet, they will need to be in great balance to not hold you back.

There are a few named approaches out there but to me a lot of them work on stretching the topline as a priority rather than changing the horse's balance, decreasing asymmetry etc. I would avoid anything that significantly relies on keeping the head low, or anything that simply looks at strengthening such as use of treadmills, poles etc. We MUST correct the way the horse moves before we then add additional load/stress.

Several FB groups don't fully address this imo, you'll see German neck stretchers, pole work, tiny circles, all sorts that to me aren't the best way to proceed.

There are various resources that you could utilise to rehab at home, the residential approach I would recommend is with Dan Wain Equestrian in Warwickshire, he does travel throughout the Midlands and beyond too. Location will be key I'm sure, if you let us know I'll have a further think. You'll also need at least one exceptional body worker too, again not all consider movement patterns and don't seem to see musculature and posture in the way that the best rehabbers do.

I would read up thoroughly on ligament snips, NOT a vet opinion of course but generally our horses already suffer slightly/significantly from lack of stability in their bodies, from breeding AND training, so reducing stability further may not be the best way to go. Every case will be different and you must of course take vet advice and be happy with your own personal decision for your own horse/circumstances.

 

[w1bbler]

Do lots & lots of reading from all sources. My experience was a horse with ulcers, ks & npa in fronts,
We medicated the ulcers & ks & I attempted rehab, which did nothing. I literally watched my beloved horse falling apart infront of me
I changed vets & got a new body worker on board. We think loosing fitness from not riding let all the muscles relax & my rehab attempts simply couldn't overcome her basic daily inability to stand in good posture. When fit she was kind of held together.
Sorting her feet made such a huge difference, she also had bones shave surgery ( 8 processes) her worst area was behind the saddle which explained why she sometimes politely stopped infront of a fence & said she couldn't jump it, every jump must have been uncomfortable, I can't believe she didn't catapult me over the jumps when I asked
3 1/2 years on I'm happy I made the decision to operate. Many have success without operating, which processes are affected can make a difference to rehab v surgery.
Whatever you decide, surgery or medication the rehab is the most important part. Surgery is not a short cut & get a good bodywork on board, vets seem to think the rehab involves hours of circles in pessoa or similar

 

[IrishMilo]

Really pleased you were able to get a diagnosis. Well done for listening to your horse and following your gut! Another ex racer has landed on its feet!