Izzy Taylor prison?!

[groom/instructor12]

I worked for izzy during the time of the incident in question, I can tell you all that what the articles have printed are 100% accurate. The fire itself was inconsequential, small and sorted within a few moments. However what it highlited was the sheer lack of care for the staff living on site. Fortunately the staff flat in question was not mine (though mine wasn't much better). It was unsafe, unsanitary and in my opinion should have not been used to house a person.

I worked there for just over a year and no amount of money would ever convince me to return. I have 100s of examples of why not but going into them all would take all day and quite frankly cause some readers to think twice about the eventing industry as a whole.

I love eventing and I loved all the horses there at the time, I still work in the industry and its taken me a very long time to find a job that values its employees. I wish I could say izzy is the exception to the rule but unfortunately its my experience that she's the standard not the anomaly

 

[paisley]

Surely with the arguments we have seen with horses struggling to compete cross country due to being so used to being on a surface, dressage on grass should be celebrated as a preparation? If you aren't comfortable riding a dressage test because the ground is bad then why would you take them round a 5 star course?

There is the argument that as the dressage arena gets more cut up, it gives the early riders some advantage of the better going. Ice skating gets a resurface of the rink between groups to reduce this. You have an some option to pick better ground for the XC, but the dressage means you're stuck on the same track as 40 other horses. Asking a horse for the best extended trot over what can look like a ploughed field can take marks off as they get bogged down.

 

[ycbm]

I think Izzy is right. In a 5* they are testing the elite of the world and deciding a winner by fractions of a point.

It seems very odd to accept that winner potentially being top because it went one horse earlier in the dressage on a grass surface that's cutting up, because that's just pure luck of the draw.

I can see though, that the cost to build an arena at every 5* venue could be prohibitive.
.

 

[j1ffy]

I think Izzy is right. In a 5* they are testing the elite of the world and deciding a winner by fractions of a point.

It seems very odd to accept that winner potentially being top because it went one horse earlier in the dressage on a grass surface that's cutting up, because that's just pure luck of the draw.

I can see though, that the cost to build an arena at every 5* venue could be prohibitive.
.

The arena at Badminton is huge. Could an option be to move the dressage arena (or have multiple arenas and just move the judge huts) so fresh ground is used, say every 15 riders?

 

[lizziebell]

There is the argument that as the dressage arena gets more cut up, it gives the early riders some advantage of the better going. Ice skating gets a resurface of the rink between groups to reduce this. You have a some option to pick better ground for the XC, but the dressage means you're stuck on the same track as 40 other horses. Asking a horse for the best extended trot over what can look like a ploughed field can take marks off as they get bogged down.

The dressage arena is inspected at each break interval by the team, and divots stamped down, although on the Saturday this year it was near impossible to even out marks without making it worse.
The ground on Saturday did prove difficult, but I would also say that the majority of the riders didn’t ride for every mark and lost marks in some basic movements and that was also seen on the Friday when the ground was good, and which really should not have been that much more effected by the ground on Saturday.

 

[lizziebell]

The arena at Badminton is huge. Could an option be to move the dressage arena (or have multiple arenas and just move the judge huts) so fresh ground is used, say every 15 riders?

It’s not THAT big, and the start box and final XC jump is already set up. It’s just not feasible on so many levels (time, equipment, testing etc)

 

[MuddyMonster]

Surely, it will aways be 'unfair' as even if the dressage was on a surface someone still has to go first and someone still has to go last XC? I appreciate they might be able to take slightly different lines in places but there's only so many places a horse can approach, take off and land over a fence.

 

[lizziebell]

Surely, it will aways be 'unfair' as even if the dressage was on a surface someone still has to go first and someone still has to go last XC? I appreciate they might be able to take slightly different lines in places but there's only so many places a horse can approach, take off and land over a fence.

… and that also applies to the showjumping.

 

[ycbm]

Surely, it will aways be 'unfair' as even if the dressage was on a surface someone still has to go first and someone still has to go last XC? I appreciate they might be able to take slightly different lines in places but there's only so many places a horse can approach, take off and land over a fence.

Well that's true but it seems to me to be far more likely that someone will win based on half a dressage point than that going later on the XC will cause more time faults or more refusals. And you can practicaly do something to remove the variability in one and not the other. (Always excepting rain of course, which nobody can do anything about).

 

[paisley]

The dressage arena is inspected at each break interval by the team, and divots stamped down, although on the Saturday this year it was near impossible to even out marks without making it worse.
The ground on Saturday did prove difficult, but I would also say that the majority of the riders didn’t ride for every mark and lost marks in some basic movements and that was also seen on the Friday when the ground was good, and which really should not have been that much more effected by the ground on Saturday.

I appreciate how challenging the weather made the ground (and if Badminton didn’t have such good ‘old’ turf a cancellation would have been likely), but no level of inspection/divot treading changes where the main movements cut up the ground, such as centre lines and diagonals. Eventing dressage now has far more influence in position margins and it can make a difference to a sensitive people pleaser horse if the footing is deep. Having said that, if you’ve got a right naughty one, the mud can be a benefit

 

[reynold]

The possible margins of scoring between early and late on the list of competitors is down to the 'luck of the draw'. It is the fundamental behind a drawn order. At events where riders have 2 entries one goes early and one late. I believe it is the choice of the rider to decide which of their horses goes early and which late.

The same luck aspect applies in pure SJ with a drawn order and also in flat racing with a draw for stalls number.

It is also common for the first to go in dressage to get a conservative mark to allow for subsequent competitors to get higher (or lower) marks.

With horse sports (and also a lot of other sports) there is an element of luck working alongside the skill needed by the competitor.

 

[mini-eventer]

Ros Canter had a late Saturday dressage. She seamed to cope with the disadvantage fairly well...

 

[claracanter]

I don’t think an all weather surface will necessarily make the dressage fairer because dressage is a subjective discipline. SJ or XC is more straightforward with set penalty points for fences down, run outs, time faults etc. Eventing Dressage is more open to interpretation although having 3 judges mitigates this somewhat.
She could also have a moan about multiple riders having an advantage on their second ride but sadly that didn’t work out for her this year either

 

[marmalade76]

I worked for izzy during the time of the incident in question, I can tell you all that what the articles have printed are 100% accurate. The fire itself was inconsequential, small and sorted within a few moments. However what it highlited was the sheer lack of care for the staff living on site. Fortunately the staff flat in question was not mine (though mine wasn't much better). It was unsafe, unsanitary and in my opinion should have not been used to house a person.

I worked there for just over a year and no amount of money would ever convince me to return. I have 100s of examples of why not but going into them all would take all day and quite frankly cause some readers to think twice about the eventing industry as a whole.

I love eventing and I loved all the horses there at the time, I still work in the industry and its taken me a very long time to find a job that values its employees. I wish I could say izzy is the exception to the rule but unfortunately its my experience that she's the standard not the anomaly

Sounds like a stint in clink would do her good and serve as a warning to others.

 

[Velcrobum]

In the top 10 after dressage only 2 rode on Friday the other 8 rode on Saturday.

 

[ycbm]

The possible margins of scoring between early and late on the list of competitors is down to the 'luck of the draw'. It is the fundamental behind a drawn order. At events where riders have 2 entries one goes early and one late. I believe it is the choice of the rider to decide which of their horses goes early and which late.

The same luck aspect applies in pure SJ with a drawn order and also in flat racing with a draw for stalls number.

It is also common for the first to go in dressage to get a conservative mark to allow for subsequent competitors to get higher (or lower) marks.

With horse sports (and also a lot of other sports) there is an element of luck working alongside the skill needed by the competitor.

Some luck can be moderated and some not. Obviously that which can't, like running order judge bias, has to remain, but I think it's right to question that which can be removed, especially as almost nobody holds a even BD Intro on grass any more.
.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I really don't get peoples obsession with doing everything on a surface with 4 walls around them!

 

[Upthecreek]

I worked for izzy during the time of the incident in question, I can tell you all that what the articles have printed are 100% accurate. The fire itself was inconsequential, small and sorted within a few moments. However what it highlited was the sheer lack of care for the staff living on site. Fortunately the staff flat in question was not mine (though mine wasn't much better). It was unsafe, unsanitary and in my opinion should have not been used to house a person.

I worked there for just over a year and no amount of money would ever convince me to return. I have 100s of examples of why not but going into them all would take all day and quite frankly cause some readers to think twice about the eventing industry as a whole.

I love eventing and I loved all the horses there at the time, I still work in the industry and its taken me a very long time to find a job that values its employees. I wish I could say izzy is the exception to the rule but unfortunately its my experience that she's the standard not the anomaly

It’s sad. My niece has groomed for some top eventers and has unfortunately had very similar experience to you. The standard of accommodation they expect staff to live in is appalling and the wage they pay for working exceptionally long hours with very little time off is woeful. They take advantage of the fact that grooms chose the job for the love of horses and the sport.

 

[ycbm]

It’s sad. My niece has groomed for some top eventers and has unfortunately had very similar experience to you. The standard of accommodation they expect staff to live in is appalling and the wage they pay for working exceptionally long hours with very little time off is woeful. They take advantage of the fact that grooms chose the job for the love of horses and the sport.

Has the"working pupil" slave system ended now? A daughter of a friend worked for a year with no pay at all, not even accommodation, for a top league eventer. About 20 years ago.
.

 

[Upthecreek]

Has the"working pupil" slave system ended now? A daughter of a friend worked for a year with no pay at all, not even accommodation, for a top league eventer. About 20 years ago.
.

No no that shameful practice still goes on, but I don’t think quite as many young people (or their parents) fall for the great opportunity these days to work for free in exchange for a pro teaching them everything they know about horses (for about 10 minutes per week if they are lucky).

 

[SilverLinings]

Has the"working pupil" slave system ended now? A daughter of a friend worked for a year with no pay at all, not even accommodation, for a top league eventer. About 20 years ago.
.

And if you were lucky they would also let you pay them top-whack full livery fees to take your horse with you, despite expecting you to care for said horse outside working hours (I interviewed for a post with an Olympic dressage rider in around 1999 who was desperate for me to bring my horse with me for £100/week livery, despite the fact I would be working for no wage, but apparently should be grateful for the opportunity to live in a badly converted, leaky, rat-infested stable).

 

[Michen]

Wasn't Ros' test during the worst of the ground, and she led the dressage?

 

[ycbm]

Wasn't Ros' test during the worst of the ground, and she led the dressage?

How much would she have led by if she gone in at, say, number 5?
.

 

[ester]

In the top 10 after dressage only 2 rode on Friday the other 8 rode on Saturday.

Quite, the top scorers pretty much always come from the 2nd day, and if that was the same this year then...

The ring is massive, much more so than burghley, so I don't see why they couldn't move it for the 2nd day either though.

 

[Velcrobum]

And if you were lucky they would also let you pay them top-whack full livery fees to take your horse with you, despite expecting you to care for said horse outside working hours (I interviewed for a post with an Olympic dressage rider in around 1999 who was desperate for me to bring my horse with me for £100/week livery, despite the fact I would be working for no wage, but apparently should be grateful for the opportunity to live in a badly converted, leaky, rat-infested stable).

That points a finger at a very small group of people in this country.................

 

[Tiddlypom]

Tbf, the grass arena had held up beautifully after the first day of dressage. I was back at 8am the second day in time for the first competitor (early start due to the coronation) after a night of heavy rain and it was very wet - look at the camera operator. The pic below was taken at 8.10am. By the end of the second day, the arena was a bog after non stop rain.

There would have been room to move it overnight if it had cut up on on day 1.

 

[reynold]

Haven't been to Badminton for dressage/SJ but have been for XC.

However I've been a regular to Blenheim for all 4 days. Being held in September many of these were run on rain soaked ground where the dressage cut up (and with XC fences in the arena).

I noticed that for SJ the fences were carefully positioned to allow horses to take off/land/approach the jumps without being impeded by the track left from the dressage. Hence I think that it is better to put up with a muddy single dressage arena to leave room for safe SJ fence placement then to move the arena and create 2 areas of poaching for SJ to have to avoid/deal with.

 

[SilverLinings]

That points a finger at a very small group of people in this country.................

There are a lot of riders who have competed at the olympics, and I didn't say what year they competed, their gender or where in the country they lived. I also still have a copy of the original advertisement, so am happy to stand by what I said. It was standard practice back then and also happened to two friends who took up the 'job' offers, one with a different dressage rider and one with a very well known eventer. Another friend worked in SJ yards for 10yrs across the late 90s/early 00s and the way grooms were frequently treated then (although not by all riders/employers) was appalling.

This comment does not relate to a specific discipline/rider, but I am extremely surprised that there hasn't been a 'me too' expose of the behaviour of some top flight riders/yards from that era. Someone I knew at the time successfully took her employer to court for sexual harassment and assault and it didn't appear to be reported anywhere other than the small local newspaper, despite the rider being very well known. I sincerely hope that that type of behaviour has stopped, but it is disappointing to hear from others on this thread that grooms are still often treated poorly in other ways.

 

[honetpot]

No no that shameful practice still goes on, but I don’t think quite as many young people (or their parents) fall for the great opportunity these days to work for free in exchange for a pro teaching them everything they know about horses (for about 10 minutes per week if they are lucky).

I know someone who worked for a pro twelve years ago, I think they stayed about six months, and he never got to ride, about the same time a school leaver on our yard went to work on a showing yard, and ended up in the horrible caravan, with no money. She was better off literally, working in McDonald's. Both of these teenagers rode well, and could do all the basic stable management, so they just needed polish, and training up for prepping for competition.
I think the ones that fall for it usually have parents who do not have a horse background, and it seems like a good way to learn.

 

[Ellibelli]

That points a finger at a very small group of people in this country.................

I think prior to the introduction of the minimum wage and HMRC's crack down, this practice was common amongst a very large group of people in the horse industry in this country.......