Lottie frys test…

[shortstuff99]

Bold is mine ss, obviously you meant tackless but it amused me too

Now I get it ??

 

[milliepops]

Video doesn't work for me, just says content not available.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I've typed and deleted like 5 replies so far. I don't even want to re-enter this conversation, really. I'm quite surprised by some of the tones taken by some posters toward others. I don't know why dressage brings out the worst in some people and only some can really "know best" and any alternatives and/or curiosities are met with snark and/or discounted.

How can you state that some top dressage riders have diversity in their program but then berate a poster for having curiosity about top riders riding bitless? It is actually interesting to see how a horse/rider do when bits are taken out of the equation. Bits aren't the devil, but riding without one really can highlight the partnership, training, and body control of the rider. Some top riders do have video out there of riding in a neck ring, for example, or even just bareback and it's impressive. It takes away the doubt re any reliance on equipment. Sure we're not entitled to that, but nothing wrong with wondering what so and so pair could do bitless. Especially if you're a bitless rider yourself, it can give some inspiration. No, these riders don't have to ride bitless, but if/when they do it's just something different to see, which makes it interesting.

Perhaps I'm a bit sensitive at the moment with other life stress, and the fact that I sort of teeter back and forth about riding in general (just ethics, selfishness, and benefits to the horse type stuff, overthinking really), but there has been a shift recently or more unpleasantness. Maybe it's because I can be a bit blunt and tactless and people got on me for it before, so to see it running amok and it being ok now strikes a nerve ?

 

[milliepops]

It would be helpful if every dressage thread did not quickly turn into a generalised rant about how godawful the entire discipline is and how all dressage riders are horse abusers and all the judges are blind.

Can't speak for others but it's absolutely destroyed the forum for me, if you try to present the opposite pov you're more or less lumped into the cruel unenlightened pile of people who don't care about welfare and just like the spectacle.

If you ask questions about what people mean then it either goes ignored or you're accused of being provocative

Eventing dressage is constantly upheld as the epitome of correct sport... often tense horses that miss their changes? Plus who trains the eventers for their dressage? It's the same folk that are dismissed as Getting It All Wrong.

All the while people come up with things they want dressage to be, which is specifically is not... there are marks relating to contact via a bit which is why I lost the plot at having to prove your worth bridleless before you were allowed to exist.

It kills debate. This forum used to be great for training discussions and sharing progress and ideas. Personally I'm no longer willing to share my own works in progress because gasp sometimes a retrainer might go BTV. Or your tack choices get pulled apart by someone you've never met and who you have zero idea their level of experience because they don't give away an equal bit of themselves.

There appears to be no understanding that sometimes people putting themselves out there even at international shows know they are not perfect. Even a 10 score in dressage is not "perfect" but "excellent". I do not percieve the arrogance in dressage that others seem to, everyone I have come across is humble. It is a natural part of the sport because you are reminded daily of how much there is to learn.

I watched the thread go on in this vein for a fair while thinking "don't say anything because it'll just go the same way as always" until it got a bit too extreme and I followed in another person's slipstream. Should have let it become more one sided any hysterical? Hho is an echo chamber in many other ways so perhaps this will become another one. Most of the dressage members have dropped off over the years anyway.

I like hho for the capacity for interesting debate, sometimes that becomes robust because people are passionate about horses. Probably people will never agree on things which is fine ?‍ but I do think there has to be a level of sensibility to things otherwise, yeah, people will react with incredulity or with further challenges.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

It would be helpful if every dressage thread did not quickly turn into a generalised rant about how godawful the entire discipline is and how all dressage riders are horse abusers and all the judges are blind.

Can't speak for others but it's absolutely destroyed the forum for me, if you try to present the opposite pov you're more or less lumped into the cruel unenlightened pile of people who don't care about welfare and just like the spectacle.

If you ask questions about what people mean then it either goes ignored or you're accused of being provocative

Eventing dressage is constantly upheld as the epitome of correct sport... often tense horses that miss their changes? Plus who trains the eventers for their dressage? It's the same folk that are dismissed as Getting It All Wrong.

All the while people come up with things they want dressage to be, which is specifically is not... there are marks relating to contact via a bit which is why I lost the plot at having to prove your worth bridleless before you were allowed to exist.

It kills debate. This forum used to be great for training discussions and sharing progress and ideas. Personally I'm no longer willing to share my own works in progress because gasp sometimes a retrainer might go BTV. Or your tack choices get pulled apart by someone you've never met and who you have zero idea their level of experience because they don't give away an equal bit of themselves.

There appears to be no understanding that sometimes people putting themselves out there even at international shows know they are not perfect. Even a 10 score in dressage is not "perfect" but "excellent". I do not percieve the arrogance in dressage that others seem to, everyone I have come across is humble. It is a natural part of the sport because you are reminded daily of how much there is to learn.

I watched the thread go on in this vein for a fair while thinking "don't say anything because it'll just go the same way as always" until it got a bit too extreme and I followed in another person's slipstream. Should have let it become more one sided any hysterical? Hho is an echo chamber in many other ways so perhaps this will become another one. Most of the dressage members have dropped off over the years anyway.

I like hho for the capacity for interesting debate, sometimes that becomes robust because people are passionate about horses. Probably people will never agree on things which is fine ?‍ but I do think there has to be a level of sensibility to things otherwise, yeah, people will react with incredulity or with further challenges.

Lots of irony to be had here.

Both sides are just as "closed" or not open to debate as the other. You're guilty of it, I am, we all are. Neither "side" or stance wants to even entertain the other or consider that someone has had a different experience from theirs.

I feel as though when any mistakes, poor judging (it really does happen sometimes!), or questions are brought up it's dismissed. How dare you question dressage where people are humble, under pressure, trying their best, and executing the sport as it is/should be. Or it's just covered under "it's nor perfect but it's a lot better than it was!"

This forum used to be great for training discussions and sharing progress and ideas. Personally I'm no longer willing to share my own works in progress because gasp sometimes a retrainer might go BTV. Or your tack choices get pulled apart by someone you've never met and who you have zero idea their level of experience because they don't give away an equal bit of themselves.

This I can understand. I didn't post a photo of my horse on the last weekend thread because he was wearing a double bridle (competing in a class that required it). Or God forbid something isn't perfect. Or when people who don't have a very high standard of care want to talk to me about something they don't practice. Hard to swallow that.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I haven’t contributed because I know so little about dressage or how to evaluate performances. Though I did think the test looked incredible. But I do agree there is an anti dressage bias in a way that there isn’t really in posts about eventing or showjumping which must be very dispiriting or tedious for those genuinely passionate about dressage. There seems to me to be far more harmony in dressage than show jumping for example where horses can need to be led into the arena to avoid napping and can look to be fighting their riders. And yet you don’t get people saying ‘oh but they should jump round Grand Prix bitless’. It’s just a really odd response to watching discipline A to say ‘but they arent doing discipline B’. No they aren’t. And your point is?

I think the combination of power, grace, harmony and obedience is breathtaking in dressage. And so incredibly hard to do well.

I’m sad people don’t want to share their dressage progress but I get it. I post jumping stills to show progression from tiny jumps to bigger ones when I’m pleased with how Lottie went but I am far more reluctant to show any flatwork even though I’m trying really hard at that and feel pleased with how’s it’s going, because it’s just so easy to pull flatwork apart.

 

[planete]

I have a feeling the worst critics are the least knowledgeable with hands on experience of the subject ( I fully expect to be shot down for saying this). It is easy to uphold a theoretical ideal but never having a horse behind the vertical is practically impossible as is having every horse relaxed in all circumstances. You do your best with what you have on the day and, I believe, you are usually marked on what you show, warts and all, because when it takes split second stills to spot a fault you are losing sight of the overall achievement.

 

[splashgirl45]

Agree with all you have said milliepops, I used to love your posts and videos of your horse and always thought you were brave to post. You have competed at a much higher level than me and I can see the faults in dressage at all levels but I still enjoy watching it. Why dressage gets such a hammering on here surprises me as show jumping, for instance has horses with extremely strong bits not always being used kindly and they are being asked to jump very demanding courses butno one ever criticises that sport. I now find SJ asks too much of the horses and I therefore don’t watch it, but I wouldn’t rant on a thread discussing it but it seems everyone on here is an expert and none of the rest of us who like dressage and understand how difficult it is are allowed to have an opinion .. how about vaulting, another sport I don’t enjoy watching because of the horse being strapped down behind the vertical , no one ever mentions that!!

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Maybe when you watch a rider clearing a 1.60 oxer there is not much tendency for most leisure riders to say ‘he should have done it like this’ but we all do flatwork so somehow everyone thinks they know how it ‘should’ be done.

 

[ycbm]

I've seen both show jumping and eventing criticised on this forum.

I think it's also a fact that if you take those the disciplines, the one which has changed the most in the last 30 years in pursuit of medals is the dressage.

ETA the next most is probably the cross country element of eventing, which has got massively more technical, something which has raised a lot of questions about fairness to the horse this last year or so.
.

 

[splashgirl45]

I haven’t contributed because I know so little about dressage or how to evaluate performances. Though I did think the test looked incredible. But I do agree there is an anti dressage bias in a way that there isn’t really in posts about eventing or showjumping which must be very dispiriting or tedious for those genuinely passionate about dressage. There seems to me to be far more harmony in dressage than show jumping for example where horses can need to be led into the arena to avoid napping and can look to be fighting their riders. And yet you don’t get people saying ‘oh but they should jump round Grand Prix bitless’. It’s just a really odd response to watching discipline A to say ‘but they arent doing discipline B’. No they aren’t. And your point is?

I think the combination of power, grace, harmony and obedience is breathtaking in dressage. And so incredibly hard to do well.

I’m sad people don’t want to share their dressage progress but I get it. I post jumping stills to show progression from tiny jumps to bigger ones when I’m pleased with how Lottie went but I am far more reluctant to show any flatwork even though I’m trying really hard at that and feel pleased with how’s it’s going, because it’s just so easy to pull flatwork apart.

what a sensible post AE , those of us who have tried to do dressage can appreciate just how difficult it is..also writing for dressage judges shows just how difficult that job is, I’ve written for top judges at international shows and it’s an eye opener and has helped with my understanding of the marking

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I’ve seen them criticised but I’ve also seen them celebrated - there just seems to be a pattern of how these threads go. Things start with someone posting something enthusiastic and slowly they turn into All The Things Wrong With Dressage. That’s fine, people can post how they want to - but I get why dressage specialists find it a bit depressing.

 

[splashgirl45]

I've seen both show jumping and eventing criticised on this forum.

I think it's also a fact that if you take those the disciplines, the one which has changed the most in the last 30 years in pursuit of medals is the dressage.

ETA the next most is probably the cross country element of eventing, which has got massively more technical, something which has raised a lot of questions about fairness to the horse this last year or so.
.

I think SJ is also more technical and asks IMO a bit too much with the height and width of the fences but that seems to be ok with this forum

 

[ycbm]

I think it's just a fact of life on an unmoderated generalised forum, isn't it? I've never looked but I've assumed that there are moderated forums where there is no overall criticism of the sport itself for dressage/showjumpjng/polo/eventing/hunting/etc

 

[ycbm]

I think SJ is also more technical and asks IMO a bit too much with the height and width of the fences but that seems to be ok with this forum

Have the fences got any bigger? The Hickstead Derby and internationsl SJ always looked like a huge ask to me since I first watched them 50 years ago.

Puissance has been limited to fewer efforts, and I thought the biggest change to catch horses out in other competitions wasn't technicality (which i don't see having changed much) but light poles, which are probably a welfare improvement.
.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I don't know, maybe I'm not a "true" dressage rider. I compete just above AM, and my training is so mixed (some classical elements, ground work, cross country and show jumping, hacking, working equitation), so I don't consider myself a "specialist" but our dressage is the highest level of skill we have in comparison to the other stuff we do or compete at.

I sort of feel lost in these threads like I don't belong to any crowd or side, really ?

I don't want dressage to be free from criticism, so don't want discussion to shut down, but some people (of varying stances/sides) are a bit blind. ?

 

[Chianti]

I think a lot of people - whether they ride or not - are questioning all horse sports. I take a look at the EPONAtv Facebook page every now and then and over the last couple of weeks they have posted videos of show jumping, vaulting and dressage. In the past there have been videos of western riding. All of these showed examples of horses being ridden in ways which appear to be stressful for them. If we're going to use horses then we have to be honest about the experiences they have as a result. I don't object to a horse wearing a double bridle but I do if the nose band is so tight that you can't get a piece of paper under it. If professionals compete then they should expect people to give their opinion- whether that's positive or not.

 

[Sam_J]

This is an international grand prix rider who does tackles

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...G2tLtxHvxbAcAWWXV2LHiGMLRl&id=100006473203741

Thank you for posting that video, I enjoyed watching it. It was interesting to see that the horse never came BTV once that I could see, and even while doing high level movements carried his head in quite a different position to that of a horse in a double bridle.
I would like to be able to ride one tenth as well as that!

 

[Cortez]

I think all equestrian sports have their ethical and moral challenges. I don’t comment much on eventing or SJ because I haven’t competed much in either sport and certainly am not an expert. It can be tiring engaging with viewpoints and suggestions from people who plainly don’t have much experience in the area they are commenting on, but it is interesting to consider their viewpoints. It would perhaps be more useful if discussion and debate was taken on board as such, rather than some people confusing an opposing view with an attack.

 

[splashgirl45]

Have the fences got any bigger? The Hickstead Derby and internationsl SJ always looked like a huge ask to me since I first watched them 50 years ago.

Puissance has been limited to fewer efforts, and I thought the biggest change to catch horses out in other competitions wasn't technicality (which i don't see having changed much) but light poles, which are probably a welfare improvement.
.

the jumps seem bigger to me and the horses seem to have to make huge efforts to jump them, which I don’t like to watch.. I have just read nick skeletons autobiography which was very interesting reading

 

[Miss_Millie]

if you try to present the opposite pov you're more or less lumped into the cruel unenlightened pile of people who don't care about welfare and just like the spectacle.

And yet I have tried to post an opposite point of view, I believe in a very matter of fact way without putting anyone else down but merely expressing my curiosity as to how top level dressage COULD look if done differently, and your response was incredibly belittling.

I'm no longer going to respond to this thread, but I think that equestrians are the worst for getting triggered by any point of view that does not meet the traditional status quo. And if you are not an 'expert', your view counts for nothing.

 

[shortstuff99]

Thank you for posting that video, I enjoyed watching it. It was interesting to see that the horse never came BTV once that I could see, and even while doing high level movements carried his head in quite a different position to that of a horse in a double bridle.
I would like to be able to ride one tenth as well as that!

Yes he is great, he does lots of videos that I enjoy. Even better is the Veiga Lusitanos are know to be really hot but he makes them look so easy!

 

[shortstuff99]

Circling back to the original topic, here is Gareth Hughes test that I did enjoy.

His mare does need clapping practice though as bless her it still freaks her out!

https://fb.watch/f0rhPA6T2M/

 

[Cortez]

Yes he is great, he does lots of videos that I enjoy. Even better is the Veiga Lusitanos are know to be really hot but he makes them look so easy!

I can confirm this fact

 

[shortstuff99]

And just for fun, here is their stud advert

 

[Cortez]

Oh, thank you for that Shortstuff, makes my day

 

[Caol Ila]

Of course dressage folk get a wee bit defensive when people appear to be criticizing dressage as a whole discipline, with very broad brush strokes. That came across to me as very different than kvetching about the judging at FEI competitions, an international pasttime for even dressage people which has been going on for as long as I've been involved in the sport. At every big show, there's always a lovely, smooth, light ride like Gareth's that doesn't score as highly as one (well, me, lol) thinks it should. But I never got past Medium, so hey ho.

Some of the points of view were interesting - why shouldn't we allow the horse the freedom to carry his head where he chooses? Well, there are good reasons, as I see it. Should we ask for the school movements like passage and piaffe? For horses who are capable of it, I see it as no harder than being asked to run as fast as they can or jump 1.60m. And some are bred to do it like TBs are bred to run. Should GP riders have a segment of their test where they remove their bridles? On very hot horses in the electric atmosphere of an Olympics or WEG, it would definitely be entertaining.

 

[teapot]

Of course dressage folk get a wee bit defensive when people appear to be criticizing dressage as a whole discipline, with very broad brush strokes. That came across to me as very different than kvetching about the judging at FEI competitions, an international pasttime for even dressage people which has been going on for as long as I've been involved in the sport. At every big show, there's always a lovely, smooth, light ride like Gareth's that doesn't score as highly as one (well, me, lol) thinks it should. But I never got past Medium, so hey ho.

Some of the points of view were interesting - why shouldn't we allow the horse the freedom to carry his head where he chooses? Well, there are good reasons, as I see it. Should we ask for the school movements like passage and piaffe? For horses who are capable of it, I see it as no harder than being asked to run as fast as they can or jump 1.60m. And some are bred to do it like TBs are bred to run. Should GP riders have a segment of their test where they remove their bridles? On very hot horses in the electric atmosphere of an Olympics or WEG, it would definitely be entertaining.

Can we remove saddles too?

Anyone else notice Ingrid Klimke's subtle saddle in amongst all the knee blocks, thigh blocks etc?

 

[Dexter]

Maybe when you watch a rider clearing a 1.60 oxer there is not much tendency for most leisure riders to say ‘he should have done it like this’ but we all do flatwork so somehow everyone thinks they know how it ‘should’ be done.

Thats exactly it. People with fat cobs lumbering around on the forehand know they cant jump a 1m60, but they think because they have a bitless bridle and treeless saddle and dont ask anything of their horse, that what they are doing is "kind" and if they wanted to of course they could pop down the centre line doing one time changes, they dont as obviously dressage is cruel with its nasty bits and horses being ridden into a contact.

I'll be honest, I love these sorts of posts. I open them making bets with myself about how long it will be before Karen with Bob the Cob pops up to start dishing out criticism of something she doesn't even understand never mind have any experience of. It never takes long.

 

[Caol Ila]

LOL, I actually do ride in a bitless bridle and treeless saddle (and barefoot as well...yikes! I've become that person). But purely for pragmatic reasons, not because I don't believe in bits, or trees. Anyway, that's a complete digression!