Mind blown!!!!!!!!

[ponynutz]

Definitely this thread has concerned me and I'm worried for your safety as well as the comfort of Prince.
However, if this trainer is truly intended to get through a legal setback to treatment for Prince's ultimate long-term comfort I'm afraid the positives outweigh the negatives.
If this is a long-term solution I would be very concerned...

 

[flying_high]

is it worth rehabbing him? I recall your old threads. I appreciate you have both been through a lot together and its great you've stuck by him.

for my own personal opinion- if my horse's back was like that I would not entertain riding just for the sake of light hacking and some pole work.

sometimes its kinder to just retire and if finances allow, look for another horse to buy..or have riding lessons at a local riding school.

Some of you don’t know what you are talking about.

A veterinary diagnosis of kissing spine normally needs three things

1. Discomfort in the back when working / ridden may cause dangerous behaviour
2. X-rays that show close or touching vertebrae
3. A positive improvement to being ridden when the affected area is nerve blocked.

Bad x-rays are not conclusive to a kissing spine long term diagnosis. Some horses with bad x-rays are happy to be ridden and show no signs of discomfort, and compete long term with no issues. Some horses have very mild issues on x-ray but very clear pain issues being ridden. Like hock issues, spine issues don’t show the whole story on x-rays. Some horses have terrible hock x-rays but are never lame or sore. Some have moderate changes on x-ray but are very sore.

Unlike hock arthritis, kissing spine can often be improved with work to improve muscle and posture.

If Prince is happy to be ridden, not changing on nerve block and doing a regular plan of strengthening postural ground work, and having regular bodywork, and all is going okay, it is NONSENSE to say he should be retired based on behaviour last year, x-rays last year.

Further more the proximity of spinal processes changes depending on whether the horse is tense / head high or head low. If you change the head height when x-raying, you can change the closeness of the spinal processes. So do need to be experienced at taking accurate spine x-rays.

 

[flying_high]

I made the same comment at first too. I can kind of see what someone is attempting to do by standing (disclaimer, not something I’d ever do or allow!) and I think I’m this case and others it’s worked… but, I was unaware as eahotson that there was a KS diagnosis. A X-ray Is a confirmed diagnosis with no doubt.

No it isnt.

A veterinary diagnosis of kissing spine normally needs three things

1. Discomfort in the back when working / ridden may cause dangerous behaviour
2. X-rays that show close or touching vertebrae
3. A positive improvement to being ridden when the affected area is nerve blocked.

Bad x-rays are not conclusive to a kissing spine long term diagnosis. Some horses with bad x-rays are happy to be ridden and show no signs of discomfort, and compete long term with no issues. Some horses have very mild issues on x-ray but very clear pain issues being ridden. Like hock issues, spine issues don’t show the whole story on x-rays. Some horses have terrible hock x-rays but are never lame or sore. Some have moderate changes on x-ray but are very sore.

 

[ycbm]

No it isnt.

A veterinary diagnosis of kissing spine normally needs three things

1. Discomfort in the back when working / ridden may cause dangerous behaviour
2. X-rays that show close or touching vertebrae
3. A positive improvement to being ridden when the affected area is nerve blocked.

Bad x-rays are not conclusive to a kissing spine long term diagnosis. Some horses with bad x-rays are happy to be ridden and show no signs of discomfort, and compete long term with no issues. Some horses have very mild issues on x-ray but very clear pain issues being ridden. Like hock issues, spine issues don’t show the whole story on x-rays. Some horses have terrible hock x-rays but are never lame or sore. Some have moderate changes on x-ray but are very sore.

My own vet pointed to the obvious white marks on my horse's xrays, similar to those present on Prince's and said that was clear evidence of kissing spines, either currently or at some point in the past. We then used anaesthetic to prove that he was in current pain from them.

I am confused with your posts about diagnosis, because you appear to be conflating whether the DSPs have kissed/are kissing and whether the horse is in pain from that and reacting to it.

Those two don't, to me, appear to be the same thing. Surely it is possible to diagnose from x rays that a horse has/has had kissing spines without also knowing whether they are actually affecting the horse's behaviour?
.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Bad x-rays are not conclusive to a kissing spine long term diagnosis.

Yes, they are, if the x rays clearly show impinging vertebrae. The horse may or may not be sore with them though, which is quite another issue.

 

[ycbm]

If not, TP, I'm wondering how how a local eventer has managed to have at least 2 horses fail a vetting on kissing spine on x rays when they were in full work and the trial went so well he put down deposits to buy them to event.
.

 

[fankino04]

When my mare was 3 her stifle used to lock so badly that I had to get the vet out twice to "unlock it". I didn't give much thought to this when I started backing her at 4, however when she threw me off several times in one session I got her checked out and the physio said she had some SI issues that were most likely from her dragging her "locked leg" around. She seemed to get better with physio and continued to improve when in work then would suddenly get a bit worse again. This progress and relapse went on for about 5 months and the physio requested x rays to see if there was more going on than we knew about. X rays all clear in hocks and stifle but vet did back as well just in case. He declared she had very slight kissing spines but that in his opinion it wasn't bothering her at all and there was probably lots of horses out competing happily who may look the same on X ray. She did strengthen up and stop having issues so I guess X rays don't always show the full picture, but I stand by mine and others previous comments in that I would want to see a new set of X rays to show if the rehab work so far had changed anything, and given what others locally have said about the "professional rider" I would be looking for a different person to help. That said it's keirras horse, her responsibility, and her decisions to make and I think we should all draw a line under this now before the thread takes a bullying tone.

 

[throwawayaccount]

Some of you don’t know what you are talking about.

A veterinary diagnosis of kissing spine normally needs three things

1. Discomfort in the back when working / ridden may cause dangerous behaviour
2. X-rays that show close or touching vertebrae
3. A positive improvement to being ridden when the affected area is nerve blocked.

Bad x-rays are not conclusive to a kissing spine long term diagnosis. Some horses with bad x-rays are happy to be ridden and show no signs of discomfort, and compete long term with no issues. Some horses have very mild issues on x-ray but very clear pain issues being ridden. Like hock issues, spine issues don’t show the whole story on x-rays. Some horses have terrible hock x-rays but are never lame or sore. Some have moderate changes on x-ray but are very sore.

Unlike hock arthritis, kissing spine can often be improved with work to improve muscle and posture.

If Prince is happy to be ridden, not changing on nerve block and doing a regular plan of strengthening postural ground work, and having regular bodywork, and all is going okay, it is NONSENSE to say he should be retired based on behaviour last year, x-rays last year.

Further more the proximity of spinal processes changes depending on whether the horse is tense / head high or head low. If you change the head height when x-raying, you can change the closeness of the spinal processes. So do need to be experienced at taking accurate spine x-rays.

Hello, I do have a good idea of what I’m talking about else I wouldn’t have replied , please note my reply was quite small and not in length because I can’t be bothered getting into my own experiences and not wanting to derail OP’s thread- hence why I put it was my own personal opinion which is I don’t think there is any point to forcing a horse to be ridden for the sake of light work. There’s nothing to say groundwork or walking inhand couldn’t be done as opposed to getting a professional to stand on the horses back.. not sure what that’s achieving tbh?

NONE of us know what’s going on behind the scenes and can only go off what OP chooses to share.

Generally speaking-
If a horse keeps breaking down There’s usually reasons why

apologies for typos if any

To reiterate I think the OP has done a great job sticking by her horse when not many would and I am keeping my fingers crossed for a good future for both her and her horse.

 

[flying_high]

Hello, I do have a good idea of what I’m talking about else I wouldn’t have replied , please note my reply was quite small and not in length because I can’t be bothered getting into my own experiences and not wanting to derail OP’s thread- hence why I put it was my own personal opinion which is I don’t think there is any point to forcing a horse to be ridden for the sake of light work. There’s nothing to say groundwork or walking inhand couldn’t be done as opposed to getting a professional to stand on the horses back.. not sure what that’s achieving tbh?

NONE of us know what’s going on behind the scenes and can only go off what OP chooses to share.

Generally speaking-
If a horse keeps breaking down There’s usually reasons why

apologies for typos if any

But Prince doesnt keep breaking down? He had gut and behaviour issues and back problems when he first arrived. He has had time off, rehab groundwork and bodywork. He know appears to be better muscled, more settled and happy to be ridden, based on the opinion of three professionals on the ground, and his owner's assessment of his reactions to being ridden. I dont see what you are concluding that he keeps breaking down from. And think you are being really quite emotive in telling the owner what she must do, based on your opinion.

 

[throwawayaccount]

But Prince doesnt keep breaking down? He had gut and behaviour issues and back problems when he first arrived. He has had time off, rehab groundwork and bodywork. He know appears to be better muscled, more settled and happy to be ridden, based on the opinion of three professionals on the ground, and his owner's assessment of his reactions to being ridden. I dont see what you are concluding that he keeps breaking down from. And think you are being really quite emotive in telling the owner what she must do, based on your opinion.

i said “GENERALLY SPEAKING”

i have NOT told OP what to do. Please reread what I have wrote.

 

[flying_high]

If not, TP, I'm wondering how how a local eventer has managed to have at least 2 horses fail a vetting on kissing spine on x rays when they were in full work and the trial went so well he put down deposits to buy them to event.
.

I think that is semantics. X-rays can show too close vertebrae that is by definition kissing spine, and if a professional is about to invest 10's of thousands in buying a competition event horse they would absolutely walk away.

However a personal horse that has spine x-rays and shows close or touching vertebrae, may not ever be in pain or impacted by the vertebrae or have their working life changed by it. A sports vet, doing a work up on a horse will not typically diagnose kissing spine as the source of the problem without the three things present

1) pain when working
2) improvement when area nerve blocked
3) close or touching processes on x-ray

There is a difference between observing something on a vetting x-ray, and diagnosing it as the source of problem in a work up.

 

[flying_high]

i said “GENERALLY SPEAKING”

i have NOT told OP what to do. Please reread what I have wrote.

Yes you have, you have said if it was your horse you would retire, and get another riding horse or ride at a riding school. That is pretty EMOTIVE OPINION giving.

"is it worth rehabbing him? I recall your old threads. I appreciate you have both been through a lot together and its great you've stuck by him.

for my own personal opinion- if my horse's back was like that I would not entertain riding just for the sake of light hacking and some pole work.

sometimes its kinder to just retire and if finances allow, look for another horse to buy..or have riding lessons at a local riding school. "

 

[throwawayaccount]

Yes you have, you have said if it was your horse you would retire, and get another riding horse or ride at a riding school. That is pretty EMOTIVE OPINION giving.

"is it worth rehabbing him? I recall your old threads. I appreciate you have both been through a lot together and its great you've stuck by him.

for my own personal opinion- if my horse's back was like that I would not entertain riding just for the sake of light hacking and some pole work.

sometimes its kinder to just retire and if finances allow, look for another horse to buy..or have riding lessons at a local riding school. "

that is not telling somebody what to do. That is called giving an opinion as stated,

This is opposed to directly giving the OP an instruction and telling her what she must or should do. ie: this is what I think and this is what you should do.

Something I would NOT do because no one has the right to tell OP what to do we can only advise , give our experiences or opinions, in a polite way- which I did

stop derailing the thread and nitpicking at my answers

 

[Ellietotz]

Yes you have, you have said if it was your horse you would retire, and get another riding horse or ride at a riding school. That is pretty EMOTIVE OPINION giving.

"is it worth rehabbing him? I recall your old threads. I appreciate you have both been through a lot together and its great you've stuck by him.

for my own personal opinion- if my horse's back was like that I would not entertain riding just for the sake of light hacking and some pole work.

sometimes its kinder to just retire and if finances allow, look for another horse to buy..or have riding lessons at a local riding school. "

That's an opinion and suggestion. Very different from TAA telling OP what to do.

 

[AmyMay]

Honestly, what a fuss. Her horse, her decisions.

Really think people should refrain from commenting further.

 

[flying_high]

that is not telling somebody what to do. That is called giving an opinion as stated,

ie: this is what I think and this is what you should do.

Something I would NOT do because no one has the right to tell OP what to do we can only advise , give our experiences or opinions, in a polite way- which I did

stop derailing the thread and nitpicking at my answers

I am not de-railing the thread.

I am pointing out to the people that are stating categorically based on the evidence to date that they would not ride Prince again, are not looking at all the evidence and all the typical tests used to diagnose that kissing spine is a current problem. (No telling if it might become a future problem again).

Personally I think the people who keep stating in their opinion, based on the evidence, if Prince was theirs they'd not ride him again, because of the not recent x-rays, are verging on bullying the OP.

 

[throwawayaccount]

good luck with Prince OP, I’m sorry if what I said came across as rude as that wasn’t my intention. So I do apologise

I’ve had similar experiences and so have friends - I therefore know how heartbreaking and stressful it can be

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Edit: never mind. No point to the discussion.

 

[AmyMay]

Actually CC, this thread has come very close to bullying.

 

[canteron]

I am shocked at how many people have made huge judgements on such little information.

Take advice but trust your judgement.

 

[ycbm]

X-rays can show too close vertebrae that is by definition kissing spine

That appears to be the the reverse of what you said in post 123.

Keira, can i make it clear, my issue here is not with you riding Prince. As I posted on your thread where you posted x rays, I am fully in support of you riding him again, irrespective of the fact that we all now agree that he has kissing spines on x ray. Many happy working horses will have worse x rays.

I was concerned at your choice of professional and, from my own experience, very worried about your safety. But if you are settled on both those issues then nobody will be happier that your in hand rehab has worked and you are finally able to ride the horse you bought.

And I remain in awe of your ability to keep your cool and answer all our doubts so calmly!
.

 

[Red-1]

Lovely videos, Kiera.

I don't know if you are on the right track or the wrong. I don't know if you and Prince will ride off into the sunset, or if he will put you in hospital.

What I do know is that you are his owner and acting as such, following your gut feeling, standing up for what you think. That is what makes you his owner.

From your previous threads, I have no doubt that, if things start to go wrong, you will alter what you do. I know you have taken on board what people have said about sudden explosions, and have chosen to follow your gut on that. I hope that, if one day he seems off colour or less settled, you will again follow your gut as to what to do.

Meanwhile, I am happy for you. You have sought various points of view. You have rested Prince, sought veterinary opinion, followed vet advice, done a rehab program, found someone to help. I sincerely hope the good news and happy hacking continues.

 

[flying_high]

That appears to be the the reverse of what you said in post 123.
.

I didnt do a very good job of defining the difference between spinal x-ray changes found in a vetting x-ray and when it is part of vet work for a personal riding horse that has a performance issues. Colloquially both conditions are termed the same. But the conclusive diagnosis of kissing spines as the cause of a performance issue is very different.

There is the close / touching vertebrae on a PURCHASE x-ray that you'd potentially walk away from without investigating. And it may be that the horse's x-rays never cause it a day's problem. It may be the horse never has any clinic signs of any problem. The problem at this point is not yet diagnosed as kissing spines that are causing an issue.

Versus when your own personal ridden horse has close / touching vertebrae on an x-ray found in a vet work up. If there is then evidence of pain ridden, and an improvement on nerve block then the work up is likely to conclude the problem IS kissing spines.

 

[flying_high]

Lovely videos, Kiera.

I don't know if you are on the right track or the wrong. I don't know if you and Prince will ride off into the sunset, or if he will put you in hospital.

What I do know is that you are his owner and acting as such, following your gut feeling, standing up for what you think. That is what makes you his owner.

From your previous threads, I have no doubt that, if things start to go wrong, you will alter what you do. I know you have taken on board what people have said about sudden explosions, and have chosen to follow your gut on that. I hope that, if one day he seems off colour or less settled, you will again follow your gut as to what to do.

Meanwhile, I am happy for you. You have sought various points of view. You have rested Prince, sought veterinary opinion, followed vet advice, done a rehab program, found someone to help. I sincerely hope the good news and happy hacking continues.

LOVE THIS

 

[Deleted member 150717]

I think everyone needs to stop sugar coating the reality of this horses future if it’s treated like this. Come on this is ridiculous. Your poor horse.

 

[TPO]

I think everyone needs to stop sugar coating the reality of this horses future if it’s treated like this. Come on this is ridiculous. Your poor horse.

What absolute nonsense.

It wasn't so long ago that you were asking for basic advice on here yourself and didn't like some of the replies so why are you writing a nasty reply to Kiera? Even more so when it's not something that you are experienced about.

 

[Deleted member 150717]

What absolute nonsense.

It wasn't so long ago that you were asking for basic advice on here yourself and didn't like some of the replies so why are you writing a nasty reply to Kiera? Even more so when it's not something that you are experienced about.

Because I have enough basic knowledge to know that this is wrong, and what that horse had to go though to be ‘trained’ is not right.

 

[TPO]

Because I have enough basic knowledge to know that this is wrong, and what that horse had to go though to be ‘trained’ is not right.

What's not right? Expand on your claim.

Horse with KS are rehabbed all the time. Prince didn't change when the area was blocked. The veterinary indications are that he is not in pain.

The early indications of pain e.g. rearing could all easily be attributed to numerous things for example being unsettled with all the moves/new home, novice rider/handler, "gung ho" not very competent "pro" rider, change of feed, hives, ulcers, lack of schooling/training/understanding

Kiera is doing the bog standard rehab with groundwork, poles and regular therapist as well as working with, and under, vet instructions.

But yeah go ahead and post completely unfounded hurtful comments when you have no idea.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Actually CC, this thread has come very close to bullying.

Some posts are rather near to the knuckle, but mostly folk are just genuinely worried that a well meaning but inexperienced owner is going to end up very seriously injured after being led up the garden path by a numbskull who stands on horses' backs.

KS horses can be rehabbed, sometimes successfully, but the correct slow, steady and frankly often boring work before anyone gets back on the horse is vital.

It only takes a moment for someone to suffer life changing injuries. None of us want to see that happen to Kiera.

But hey, she's an adult, the advice given on here is for her to take it or leave it.

 

[Winters100]

Because I have enough basic knowledge to know that this is wrong, and what that horse had to go though to be ‘trained’ is not right.

I think we have to be very careful about saying that something is 'wrong' when we have not seen the horse, been present at the training or spoken to the vet.

Yes, many of us have expressed concerns, but in this case the owner has clearly taken these into consideration in making her decision. In addition Kiera is clearly a very caring owner, and I am quite certain that if her vet had told her that the horse should not be ridden then she would not do so. We cannot say whether this route is the right one or not, because we all as owners sometimes have to try something where there are no guarantees, but her vet has agreed that the horse is suitable for light hacking, so who are we to disagree?

I think the main red flag to most of us was the standing on the back, and Keira has clearly taken this on board and said that she will not allow it again.

In my opinion the owner in this case is simply trying to do her best for the horse, she has taken advice from a vet, and while I do have some concerns surrounding her safety I believe that there is some chance that the horse can be brought back into work, and I really hope that this is the case.