Pandering to overweight riders

[tda]

I've mentioned this before but I went to a demo of a serious amateur producer riding a 14.2hh native. When they asked for questions I said in the light of recent discussions about rider weight, how much do you weigh? He was a fairly tall chunky but not fat guy, he said oh about 13 stone maybe.....and onto the next question.

 

[TPO]

They are absolutely not. I am firmly on the side of the horse. I was replying to the question Why do people behave... post #106. Perhaps I didn't word my response very well. I'm trying to say that some people may, for whatever reason, only hear the first part of the statement ie 'You are too heavy' not the rest of the statement "for that horse' . If someone said to me 'you are too ugly to be Sleeping Beauty' and I was overly sensitive about something about my features I would most likely only hear 'you are too ugly'

Apologies, I picked you up wrong.

 

[Flame_]

Exactly - saying
'You are too heavy for that horse'
is not the same as saying
'You are too heavy'
Why do people behave as if it is?

They aren't the same but both are far from what anyone wants to hear.
(Over-?)Sensitive people might be very hurt at being told they are too heavy for their horse. It's a (possibly accurate) accusation of being 1. Fat and 2. Cruel to their horse. So in some ways it's more potentially upsetting than just telling someone, "hey, you look pretty heavy".

We're not supposed to upset people anymore.

 

[Orangehorse]

I wonder sometimes when people ask where they can get Plus Size riding clothes. A little voice inside me says "if you are Plus Size should you be riding anyway?" But I suppose that is Fatist.

I think some of the examples of people giving their own weight on their own animals are a bit on the light side. I always remember the Hunter weights - 12, 14 and 16 stone and that a TB racehorse is expected to gallop and jump 3 miles carrying 12stone 7lb or even 13 stone in point to points.

I am a broad build in that my dress size is 14-16 and I daresay some people would be horrified at that. I sold a horse because I felt I was too heavy for her, she was 15.1 TB x Hannoverian, although non of the professionals I asked - riding instructor and vet - seemed to think it was a problem. I was about 11 stone and in the end the person who bought her seemed to be about the same build as me, and she specifically asked her vet when he was vetting her.

 

[maisie06]

I live in Australia and am curious to see what the general consensus is in other countries regarding overweight riders?

I was recently kicked off a Facebook group for telling a rider she is too big to ride any horse, let alone the 15hh TB she was sitting on. This person is 125 kilos (19 stone) however, out of the 100 or so comments, I was the only person to comment negatively, everyone else was saying ''oh you look fine'' and ''as long as you are a balanced rider your size doesn't matter''.

I felt like I was in some parallel universe! It's so crazy to me that so many people thought this was OK, is it this widely accepted everywhere else or is it only here?

Blimey - that's way too heavy. I gave up riding because I cannot get my weight down, tried every diet going but nothing works so stopped riding and sold up. When I was younger I couldn't imagine life without riding, now I'm the wrong side of 50 I wonder if it's fair to ride horses at all....just my silly musings"

 

[magicmoments]

Blimey - that's way too heavy. I gave up riding because I cannot get my weight down, tried every diet going but nothing works so stopped riding and sold up. When I was younger I couldn't imagine life without riding, now I'm the wrong side of 50 I wonder if it's fair to ride horses at all....just my silly musings"

Sounds very sensible, but very hard to do. Just a thought, could it be menopausal weight, not that makes a difference to the horse of course, but lack of hormones does reck havoc.

 

[Alwaysmoretoknow]

I totally get Cortez's disillusionment with judging these days.
Apparently, according to BD judge training guidelines, you must not comment (or, god forbid ask a competitor to leave the arena) on a competitor's horse's soundness apart from anodyne comments like 'rhythm varying ' when it's pretty much hopping lame.
Nor are you able to in any way express that the 'partnership' is 'inappropriate' due to the rider being significantly 'under-horsed' or basically too heavy for that particular horse/pony even to the point where it is a blatant welfare issue and the horse struggles to complete the required movements in anything approaching a harmonious way.
If the sport's governing bodies (all of them) are so squeamish that they won't address these issues then horse welfare gets chucked in the bin and we are all at risk of being called out on any kind of a social contract we have with our equine partners and expose ourselves to ethical questions regarding the morality of what we do.

 

[dominobrown]

I work at rs/ trekking centre. We ask height and weights before anyone books anything but a lot of people lie/ massively underestimate. One of our negatived reviews is when a person was obviously heavier than they had booked, so we tried to switch to another activity (we do quad biking, clay pigeon shooting etc etc) and they had a right tantrum, they were something like 6 stone heavier than the initially said.
I used to teach a lovely person, who came with RDA or organised by their carer. Unfortunately they got heavier and heavier, and although we asked them to update their height and weight and they kept saying it hadn't changed though it had. In the end we had a very uncomfortable phone call as the horse was showing obvious signs of discomfort. We got accused of bullying etc but we where really clear that the person in question was lovely but its a welfare issue.
It's really fuzzy ground when people lie/ underestimate their weight/ or worse their children's weight.

I am a lot heavier than I would like, and I am really struggling to lose weight. I am very conscious of it but I think it might be caused some health issues so I am sympathetic to people as I know how it feels.

 

[HollyWoozle]

I’ve not read all the replies but just an interesting observation…

I sell riding holidays and work with many destinations all around the world. In the last year or two we have seen many of our partners lowering their weight limits, which seems a bit odd when people generally get larger. We can assume it’s partly due to increased knowledge regarding welfare but I believe that people’s increasing size also means that more and more people are close to or on the limit. Once upon a time, 95kg was around the average limit. Now most are 90kg and quite a few are 85kg. A couple are 80kg and one ride will only take one rider over 73kg! But their horses, their decision and of course we are happy that more consideration is given to welfare.

I think there was a time when, for example, places with a 90kg limit had maybe one rider per group who was close to the limit. In recent times, I think they started to get a lot more people close to 90kg or even over (a lot of people will list their weight as on the limit or perhaps 1kg under) which became unmanageable as perhaps they only have a few horses up to taking more weight. These places now say 85kg to avoid that situation, then they might get a handful of people at 85kg instead of risking several at 90kg.

It’s changing all the time and some ride operators DO now have charts based on height, weight and riding ability and we work with one destination who also take BMI into account. It’s a bit of a minefield but we work hard to ensure weight limits listed on our website are accurate and to make the limit clear to people prior to booking, to ensure any embarrassment or uncomfortable situations for clients. We have certainly offended people in the past by not being able to accept them and that’s always a sad situation, but we try our best to be sensitive whilst also ensuring we send people on a ride with horses suitable for their build.

 

[GrassChop]

My saddle fitter, when she first came out to assess, asked me what my dress size was which in a way is actually a really nice and easy way to put it but unfortunately, someone could be heavier by muscle/height etc but still be a small dress size! Would make things a lot easier though if you could ask that instead of someone's weight!

 

[rabatsa]

The RDA group I am involved with have the first session of the year as a weigh day. Everyone gets weighed, including helpers. Hats are fitted and the ponies also get weighed and their maximum weight of rider and tack put on the notice board.

 

[SO1]

But you don't need to be fat to be too heavy. I am not fat but at 8.5 stone and have very low viseral fat but would be too heavy to ride a 13.2 show pony type even though I wouldn't be too tall.

A thin person can be too heavy for their pony in same way as an overweight small adult or child might not be if they are on a large native or cob type.

By saying someone is too heavy you are not saying they are a fat person or body shaming them. I think the only way to really do it is by weighing horse, rider and tack in a more random way you would probably catch out a few people who at first glance would look fine and then it would not soley be based on appearance and just overweight riders being questioned. The picture of me on a 13.2 show pony in the right clothes would not look uncomfortable but I would still be too heavy.

By posting the picture that you did you have implied that this is something you feel is a useful illustration, non?

The 15%/20% ratio is the result of research, getting organisations to enforce it is another thing, presumably because they are worried about being accused of fat-shaming, which brings us back in a circular, not to say rotund, way to the beginning of the argument: what is more important, the horse's welfare or overweight people's feelings.

 

[Birker2020]

I work at rs/ trekking centre. We ask height and weights before anyone books anything but a lot of people lie/ massively underestimate. One of our negatived reviews is when a person was obviously heavier than they had booked, so we tried to switch to another activity (we do quad biking, clay pigeon shooting etc etc) and they had a right tantrum, they were something like 6 stone heavier than the initially said.
I used to teach a lovely person, who came with RDA or organised by their carer. Unfortunately they got heavier and heavier, and although we asked them to update their height and weight and they kept saying it hadn't changed though it had. In the end we had a very uncomfortable phone call as the horse was showing obvious signs of discomfort. We got accused of bullying etc but we where really clear that the person in question was lovely but its a welfare issue.
It's really fuzzy ground when people lie/ underestimate their weight/ or worse their children's weight.

I am a lot heavier than I would like, and I am really struggling to lose weight. I am very conscious of it but I think it might be caused some health issues so I am sympathetic to people as I know how it feels.

Out of interest what weight limit do you impose?

 

[Winters100]

My saddle fitter, when she first came out to assess, asked me what my dress size was which in a way is actually a really nice and easy way to put it but unfortunately, someone could be heavier by muscle/height etc but still be a small dress size! Would make things a lot easier though if you could ask that instead of someone's weight!

Honestly I just do not see why we have to tippy-toe about what is a welfare issue. If someone is super sensitive about their weight they can choose another hobby where they will never be asked their weight (tennis, ice-skating, off road driving - the list is endless). The fact is that, when it comes to horse riding, weight matters, and more than that it matters to the horse who is a living being, so if you or your child are going to dissolve into tears at being weighed, or asked to confirm your / their weight, then why not pick another hobby? I just do not get why people believe that their sensitivities override the animal's right not to be asked to carry too much weight.

The way that I see it is that pretty much every adult I know has, at some point in their lives, had to make adjustments to their lifestyle in order to adjust their weight. I certainly have. I am quite greedy, and I gain easily, so need to keep a good eye on what I eat and my level of exercise. Why should this be seen as something shameful? I have no problem with my partner pointing out if I have gained, it happened during the first part of the covid lockdown, and I was grateful that he was honest and pointed it out when it was 3lbs which could be easily dealt with, not 30lbs. If discussions about weight and health could be normalised, and the fact that almost everyone has to manage this could be acknowledged, then maybe we would not be in the situation where people feel that it is somehow a taboo subject, and that they are being singled out if they are asked their weight by a saddle fitter / vet / physio / trainer.

 

[ponynutz]

Think it also matters WHAT you're doing.
A few months ago I posted an 'Am I too big?' thread and although I was 10st7 on a 13.3hh/14hh most agreed that I was only going to be hacking short distances and was relatively balanced.
I do also wonder if visible weight affects? I don't LOOK 10st7 because I am also 5'7. Most people are surprised when I mention my weight or my size in clothes and so probably assume I'm within the weight limit.

It's a strange problem because it is affected by so many factors. That being said the biggest lesson I've learnt with horses over the years is how silently they will suffer and so, aside from hacking my own pony very occasionally and not very far, I try and stick to the most recent weight limit suggested by studies to relieve my own conscience.

 

[SEL]

But you don't need to be fat to be too heavy. I am not fat but at 8.5 stone and have very low viseral fat but would be too heavy to ride a 13.2 show pony type even though I wouldn't be too tall.

A thin person can be too heavy for their pony in same way as an overweight small adult or child might not be if they are on a large native or cob type.

By saying someone is too heavy you are not saying they are a fat person or body shaming them. I think the only way to really do it is by weighing horse, rider and tack in a more random way you would probably catch out a few people who at first glance would look fine and then it would not soley be based on appearance and just overweight riders being questioned. The picture of me on a 13.2 show pony in the right clothes would not look uncomfortable but I would still be too heavy.

I agree with this - I've always been heavy for my height and I'm not fat.

But to me that generally means that when people look so big on the horse that other people feel the need to comment then they really are too heavy. Yes there might be the odd person who is only 60kg but is short, top heavy and the picture looks heavier than they are - but they are the exception.

 

[rabatsa]

This year I took up deep water aquafit and lost inches from my bum, down two sizes. Feeling smug I stood on the scales and I weighed 5kg heavier . I have kept up the exercise and now slowly the weight is slipping down but I am not anything light enough to ride yet.

 

[SpotsandBays]

Out of interest what weight limit do you impose?

I think the majority of riding schools in my area are 14 stone.
When I was in college it was 16 stone but then they reduced it down to 15 stone. (I can’t remember if that was including tack or not. I remember us being weighed whilst holding tack!). The heavier riders were only allowed to ride 3/4 of the horses available at the college as there were a variety of types/heights.

 

[Cortez]

I’ve not read all the replies but just an interesting observation…

I sell riding holidays and work with many destinations all around the world. In the last year or two we have seen many of our partners lowering their weight limits, which seems a bit odd when people generally get larger. We can assume it’s partly due to increased knowledge regarding welfare but I believe that people’s increasing size also means that more and more people are close to or on the limit. Once upon a time, 95kg was around the average limit. Now most are 90kg and quite a few are 85kg. A couple are 80kg and one ride will only take one rider over 73kg! But their horses, their decision and of course we are happy that more consideration is given to welfare.

I think there was a time when, for example, places with a 90kg limit had maybe one rider per group who was close to the limit. In recent times, I think they started to get a lot more people close to 90kg or even over (a lot of people will list their weight as on the limit or perhaps 1kg under) which became unmanageable as perhaps they only have a few horses up to taking more weight. These places now say 85kg to avoid that situation, then they might get a handful of people at 85kg instead of risking several at 90kg.

It’s changing all the time and some ride operators DO now have charts based on height, weight and riding ability and we work with one destination who also take BMI into account. It’s a bit of a minefield but we work hard to ensure weight limits listed on our website are accurate and to make the limit clear to people prior to booking, to ensure any embarrassment or uncomfortable situations for clients. We have certainly offended people in the past by not being able to accept them and that’s always a sad situation, but we try our best to be sensitive whilst also ensuring we send people on a ride with horses suitable for their build.

You do not mention horse welfare once in your post. In my opinion embarrassment, uncomfortable situations or being “sad” should not take precedent over that.

 

[Abacus]

You do not mention horse welfare once in your post. In my opinion embarrassment, uncomfortable situations or being “sad” should not take precedent over that.

Actually she does - 'We can assume it’s partly due to increased knowledge regarding welfare '.

And really it's inherent in describing the rules she is working with that they are welfare related. She has not at any point said that embarrassment etc take precedent over welfare, just that she has to deal with offended or upset people and tries to do so sensitively. Can't see your problem here.

 

[stangs]

You do not mention horse welfare once in your post. In my opinion embarrassment, uncomfortable situations or being “sad” should not take precedent over that.

Did you read the full post? “We can assume it’s partly due to increased knowledge regarding welfare”, “we are happy that more consideration is given to welfare” and “horses suitable for their build”.

Someone not wanting to embarrass their clients (as you’d expect from any good business) doesn’t mean they think that client comfort is a priority over horse welfare.

 

[tristar]

The RDA group I am involved with have the first session of the year as a weigh day. Everyone gets weighed, including helpers. Hats are fitted and the ponies also get weighed and their maximum weight of rider and tack put on the notice board.

thats a good start, why not start like that at comps? and gradually chop through the jungle of denial, miffedness, to a new world of reality

and while they are at it video every test, so they can see for themselves not only how they look, but how they are riding under pressure, after that one i saw who was overweight, jabbing with spurs, pulling at the mouth and the poor thing tripped and nearly fell over twice in the test, this horse was clearly not up to carrying the rider, being fine and not big enough, and this was affiliated medium, i`ve seen better on blackpool beach, and that involved real live donkeys!

if people can find the money to buy a horse, feed and keep it, have the vet, take lessons, get affiliated, buy transport, put fuel in the tank, buy comp gear, saddles and tack and rugs, they can find the money to pay for being weighed, keeping a dossier on same themselves, and the video, copy of each to governing body and selves.

once it gets underway it will become the norm in animal welfare ,if it is introduced as for the benefit of the horse, and folk might just weight themselves and give thought to things, et voila the ball will start to roll

 

[HollyWoozle]

You do not mention horse welfare once in your post. In my opinion embarrassment, uncomfortable situations or being “sad” should not take precedent over that.

I did mention horse welfare, a key consideration in all that we do, but it's also important to us (note, not MORE important to us) not to trip people up or humiliate them where it can be avoided. For example, some people don't read all the info and think that 82kg would be fine for any ride, so we try to make it clear all the way along.

 

[sbloom]

No one thinks that 6 sacks of feed on a 15hh horse is acceptable.

I don't think any conclusions can be drawn about rider weight from 2 photos taken at such a different point in a horse's stride

It's nothing to do with the moment in the stride (as one is in walk and one canter), it's about how the rider is loaded on the horse, I don't have the perfect photos showing a similar moment where the rider is loaded poorly and then loaded well. I thought it would just give food for thought, it's not meant to be "proof".

An obvious example, and probably what others think of as "riding light" is to do with sitting well behind your feet - however strong or well balanced the rider is there WILL be more impact on the back in rising trot, than if the rider was over their feet. Add in the fact that it will also mean the rider is sitting further back, away from the COG and loading onto problematic areas such as where the psoas comes up and attaches under the spine, and it compounds the issue.

I don’t agree about the photo of the illustrious German rider riding the small horse/ pony up thread - I say he is too heavy no matter how well he rides or the horse is conditioned.

Erik Herbermann would be too heavy if he was hunting twice a week or drilling in the arena 45 minutes a day, but his horses will be exceptionally functional and correct so by definition he is NOT too heavy, whatever anyone thinks of the photo or any number crunching. He is NOT causing detriment to the pony by riding as he does. Seeing someone on a horse as a one-off and declaring they're too heavy can only really be done for exceptionally poorly matched horses and riders.

And anyone who knows me well knows that I have an aversion to MUCH of what is done in the ridden (and non-riddden) horse world, I think we ruin them in myriad ways. Erik Herbermann took broken or rejected horses and ponies and trained them to GP, he is NOT ruining them. He's not an exception that proves the rule, he's the proof, as are the two other bits of evidence I posted, that this is a very grey area.

If we really have to go with ONE % weight to improve welfare then so be it, but I think we can have much better conversations about how we help our horses to carry a rider well, full stop.

Agree that nothing increases it.

However, out of interest (not just pointed to you to answer ycbm, sorry!) if you have one chunky horse and one fine horse both weighing the same with the same level of fitness, does the weight percentage still apply? As it seems like the percentage is an overall limit that applies to all but surely each horse would be different too. Sort of on the other spectrum to the topic of rider ability, height, build etc but for the horse instead.

I agree that the weight is the weight but there are so many other things to consider, aren't there?

Exactly. Horse welfare always has to come in front of rider welfare but those of us working with riders owe them a duty of care too, and we all deserve to have a grown up conversation about this. I am absolutely NOT making excuses for riders that are too heavy. I am saying that it's pretty situational and that a rider you think is too heavy may not be, depending on their situation.

I see too many across SM saying that rider weight is a huge issue but don't have a problem with the epidemic of lameness that is caused by a way of going that is harmful to horses. This way of going is accepted, in fact rewarded, right at the very top. I haven't brought it up as it's whataboutery and just another area for debate but welfare is welfare - if a horse is genuinely sound of mind and brain (and I have a high bar on this, believe me) then the rider clearly isn't causing a problem even if you think they're too heavy, whether that is from just seeing them or from % calculation.

I typed this up yesterday but hesitated to post it. We are all in agreement on, say, 20%, certainly 25% as has been cited in the past, being too heavy in all situations. Where anyone is debating is in the grey area below that, towards and around the 15% and that IS where mitigation can really help and stop it being a black and white situation. Improving our understanding of how to help horses carry us better with less compromise to themselves would shift the dial just as much if not more.

 

[GrassChop]

No one thinks that 6 sacks of feed on a 15hh horse is acceptable.



It's nothing to do with the moment in the stride (as one is in walk and one canter), it's about how the rider is loaded on the horse, I don't have the perfect photos showing a similar moment where the rider is loaded poorly and then loaded well. I thought it would just give food for thought, it's not meant to be "proof".

An obvious example, and probably what others think of as "riding light" is to do with sitting well behind your feet - however strong or well balanced the rider is there WILL be more impact on the back in rising trot, than if the rider was over their feet. Add in the fact that it will also mean the rider is sitting further back, away from the COG and loading onto problematic areas such as where the psoas comes up and attaches under the spine, and it compounds the issue.



Erik Herbermann would be too heavy if he was hunting twice a week or drilling in the arena 45 minutes a day, but his horses will be exceptionally functional and correct so by definition he is NOT too heavy, whatever anyone thinks of the photo or any number crunching. He is NOT causing detriment to the pony by riding as he does. Seeing someone on a horse as a one-off and declaring they're too heavy can only really be done for exceptionally poorly matched horses and riders.

And anyone who knows me well knows that I have an aversion to MUCH of what is done in the ridden (and non-riddden) horse world, I think we ruin them in myriad ways. Erik Herbermann took broken or rejected horses and ponies and trained them to GP, he is NOT ruining them. He's not an exception that proves the rule, he's the proof, as are the two other bits of evidence I posted, that this is a very grey area.

If we really have to go with ONE % weight to improve welfare then so be it, but I think we can have much better conversations about how we help our horses to carry a rider well, full stop.



Exactly. Horse welfare always has to come in front of rider welfare but those of us working with riders owe them a duty of care too, and we all deserve to have a grown up conversation about this. I am absolutely NOT making excuses for riders that are too heavy. I am saying that it's pretty situational and that a rider you think is too heavy may not be, depending on their situation.

I see too many across SM saying that rider weight is a huge issue but don't have a problem with the epidemic of lameness that is caused by a way of going that is harmful to horses. This way of going is accepted, in fact rewarded, right at the very top. I haven't brought it up as it's whataboutery and just another area for debate but welfare is welfare - if a horse is genuinely sound of mind and brain (and I have a high bar on this, believe me) then the rider clearly isn't causing a problem even if you think they're too heavy, whether that is from just seeing them or from % calculation.

I typed this up yesterday but hesitated to post it. We are all in agreement on, say, 20%, certainly 25% as has been cited in the past, being too heavy in all situations. Where anyone is debating is in the grey area below that, towards and around the 15% and that IS where mitigation can really help and stop it being a black and white situation. Improving our understanding of how to help horses carry us better with less compromise to themselves would shift the dial just as much if not more.

I agree that if rules are to come in to place for weight limits, a lot more than just rider weight needs to be taken into consideration. Rider fitness, rider ability, horse build, horse fitness, horse age, conformation, riding duration/type etc all needs to be taken into consideration, it's not as simple as just standing on the scales with a saddle, I suppose something like a score sheet/rider horse condition report! I agree that there does need to be rules on it, 100%, as it is a huge issue but judging weight limit by looks is just not something that can be done as it varies too much.
On the basis of it though, it needs to become the norm asking people their weight or getting on the scales beforehand and if riders want to show their horses, then they need to be prepared to give this information at a minimum. The more it's done, the more normal it will be and if people are too embarrassed, then it should force them to do something about it.

 

[ycbm]

I agree that if rules are to come in to place for weight limits, a lot more than just rider weight needs to be taken into consideration. Rider fitness, rider ability, horse build, horse fitness, horse age, conformation, riding duration/type etc all needs to be taken into consideration, it's not as simple as just standing on the scales with a saddle, I suppose something like a score sheet/rider horse condition report! I agree that there does need to be rules on it, 100%, as it is a huge issue but I don't think it is going to be easy. Judging weight limit by looks is just not something that can be done as it varies too much.
On the basis of it though, it needs to become the norm asking people their weight or getting on the scales beforehand and if riders want to show their horses, then they need to be prepared to give this information at a minimum. The more it's done, the more normal it will be and if people are too embarrassed, then it should force them to do something about it.

At the top end, it is simple. Whatever limit you personally agree with, or the venue sets, 15% or 20%, you should not be on the horse if you and your kit weight more than that. Full stop.

You can then start to add nuance that other things should reduce the weight the horse should be asked to carry, and there are a whole bunch of those including the posture that SB keeps coming back to. Those would be completely impossible to police at a show.

So for competition purposes, the rule is very simple.
.

 

[ycbm]

Erik Herbermann would be too heavy if he was hunting twice a week or drilling in the arena 45 minutes a day, but his horses will be exceptionally functional and correct so by definition he is NOT too heavy, whatever anyone thinks of the photo or any number crunching. He is NOT causing detriment to the pony by riding as he does.

You can't possibly say that until the pony is dead and a post mortem is carried out. The fact that it performs better for Erik than it did for anyone else is not proof that he is not too heavy.

I don't know why he ever chose to train a pony that small to GP but it strikes me as macho posturing to prove that he could.
.

 

[Abacus]

And anyone who knows me well knows that I have an aversion to MUCH of what is done in the ridden (and non-riddden) horse world, I think we ruin them in myriad ways. Erik Herbermann took broken or rejected horses and ponies and trained them to GP, he is NOT ruining them. He's not an exception that proves the rule, he's the proof, as are the two other bits of evidence I posted, that this is a very grey area.

Without commenting on the weight of this rider on his pony, I would dispute the notion that a horse trained to GP is by definition sound / comfortable. Many of the horses at the highest levels look uncomfortable to me.

 

[sbloom]

I don't know why he ever chose to train a pony that small to GP but it strikes me as macho posturing to prove that he could.

Not something you could accuse him of. He rode and improved horses that had been given up on and kept improving them until they could improve no more. Just progressive training. And as I said, probably done in 2-3 30 minute ridden sessions a week.

Without commenting on the weight of this rider on his pony, I would dispute the notion that a horse trained to GP is by definition sound / comfortable. Many of the horses at the highest levels look uncomfortable to me.

I did not say by definition of working GP (not competing, not the same thing at all) he must be sound, it's that he was under a classical master working at GP.

He was the last trainer out of the German classical Von Neindorff's academy and came, if he no longer does, to Arrow Training in Herefordshire twice a year for some years. I went to watch him 3 times in the noughties when I'd long stopped watching competitive GP.

ERIK HERBERMANN: Essential Reading for Any Dressage Rider – The Horse Magazine

 

[ycbm]

ERIK HERBERMANN: Essential Reading for Any Dressage Rider – The Horse Magazine

I look at the picture at the top of that article and I see a tense horse with a man sat in a deep pit between the withers and the loins in a saddle that's too long for the horse.