Pandering to overweight riders

[Cortez]

I did mention horse welfare, a key consideration in all that we do, but it's also important to us (note, not MORE important to us) not to trip people up or humiliate them where it can be avoided. For example, some people don't read all the info and think that 82kg would be fine for any ride, so we try to make it clear all the way along.

My apologies, you did indeed mention welfare. I don't envy you dealing with the general public, but you'd think that people who are booking a riding excursion would be at least aware of the requirements (I know, this is a forlorn hope).

 

[HollyWoozle]

Thank you. It is not always straightforward but it is a joy when it comes together and horse, rider and holiday are all well-matched.

 

[TPO]

So you can be too heavy as long as you're a good rider with your pelvis in the right position?

I can't see that the weight a horse has to carry is anything other than a black & white situation.

Every weight on a horses back is too much. They are not structurally designed to carry weight. Therefore every step possible should be taken to minimise the damage that we cause; from rider weight & fitness, horse weight and fitness, tack fit, conditioning for different surfaces, hoof care, dental care and so it goes on.

I don't care what anyone claims, *everyone* is aware of their general size regardless of how happy or not they are. What I don't get is why people who know they are heavy (couldn't care less if it from solid muscle and they are at elite fitness levels or not) think its OK to climb onto a horse.

 

[sbloom]

So you can be too heavy as long as you're a good rider with your pelvis in the right position?

I'm not sure how many times I can keep clarifying. My words are pretty clear I think and they are not this.

 

[Reacher]

Erik Herbermann would be too heavy if he was hunting twice a week or drilling in the arena 45 minutes a day, but his horses will be exceptionally functional and correct so by definition he is NOT too heavy, whatever anyone thinks of the photo or any number crunching. He is NOT causing detriment to the pony by riding as he does. Seeing someone on a horse as a one-off and declaring they're too heavy can only really be done for exceptionally poorly matched horses and riders.

Without knowing how much remedial physio etc the pony needed to keep it sound we don’t know if he was causing detriment to the pony. We don’t know what is the long term effect on the pony.
PS just realised Ycbm has made a similar point.

 

[Fjord]

I stopped riding Bobbi, because I felt I was too heavy for her, at 26 she should be carrying a lightweight rider, which I am not. I'm managing to keep below 11 stone but am worried I'll still be too heavy for Angel when you take into account tack. She's a unit, but she also needs to lose weight.

 

[Reacher]

I typed this up yesterday but hesitated to post it. We are all in agreement on, say, 20%, certainly 25% as has been cited in the past, being too heavy in all situations. Where anyone is debating is in the grey area below that, towards and around the 15% and that IS where mitigation can really help and stop it being a black and white situation. Improving our understanding of how to help horses carry us better with less compromise to themselves would shift the dial just as much if not more.

I may have misread / misunderstood a previous post but I was under the impression you had saddle fitted a horse which previously struggled to carry the rider. To me that sounded like a >20% situation and on the wrong side of the grey area.

I totally agree that even if you are 15% or below you still owe it to your horse to make his job as easy as possible. I also agree there are plenty of things other than weight that are detrimental to the horse. But I think rider weight is fairly black and white.

I think if we agree Erik Herbermann is too heavy to ride his horse for 40 minutes a day then he is too heavy for the horse and he just normalising riders being too heavy for their horse and making people think it is ok to be that big on a horse.

Maybe all riders should have to do a 5 mile run carrying 15-20% of their own weight in a (well fitted) rucksack before they were allowed to ride their own horse

 

[shortstuff99]

This is why I think it would be interesting to find out the weight of a lot of top eventing horses as most male 5 star event riders are all >80kg.

 

[SEL]

This is why I think it would be interesting to find out the weight of a lot of top eventing horses as most male 5 star event riders are all >80kg.

I just did a google. Random assortment of names I could think of off the top of my head.

William F-P came in at just under 80kg (I assume without tack)
Oliver T 83kg
Pippa F 59kg

I'm guessing competitors at a certain level are weighed.

Assuming a fit TB / warmblood is around the 550kg mark then both male riders are at 15% excluding tack. When we had the weighbridge at my yard some years back the warmbloods over 16h (showjumping fit) were in excess of 600kg.

Pressed post too soon. I would also suspect that most male riders who are competing at top levels know they need to keep their weight under control in order for the horse to get the best possible time over x-c. Also a well conditioned horse would be carrying its own weight as muscle. I actually don't think the majority of the weight issue is with the professionals.

 

[paddy555]

I can't see that the weight a horse has to carry is anything other than a black & white situation.

Every weight on a horses back is too much. They are not structurally designed to carry weight. Therefore every step possible should be taken to minimise the damage that we cause; from rider weight & fitness, horse weight and fitness, tack fit, conditioning for different surfaces, hoof care, dental care and so it goes on.

they are equally not structurally designed to have a piece of metal in their mouths (or sometimes 2 bits) nor designed to have nails through their hooves, nor their mouths fastened shut with various gadgets, head restricted with standing martingales, nor to be stabled for long periods. The list is endless.

I am not condoning overweight riders however I suspect that many who are happily within 15 or 20% are equally happy to stick metal in their mouths or many of the other things.
(this is not a rant about bitless nor shod v barefoot)

 

[ycbm]

Elite event horses must carry 30kg or more less of their own fat than other horses. So the rider can weigh 30kg before they start to count.

 

[sbloom]

I may have misread / misunderstood a previous post but I was under the impression you had saddle fitted a horse which previously struggled to carry the rider. To me that sounded like a >20% situation and on the wrong side of the grey area.

I totally agree that even if you are 15% or below you still owe it to your horse to make his job as easy as possible. I also agree there are plenty of things other than weight that are detrimental to the horse. But I think rider weight is fairly black and white.

I think if we agree Erik Herbermann is too heavy to ride his horse for 40 minutes a day then he is too heavy for the horse and he just normalising riders being too heavy for their horse and making people think it is ok to be that big on a horse.

Maybe all riders should have to do a 5 mile run carrying 15-20% of their own weight in a (well fitted) rucksack before they were allowed to ride their own horse

They wanted a saddle check, I did not sell them a saddle and told them that rider could not ride the pony. I think they were shocked how obvious it was (owner watching).

If you saw what I saw weekly you would not think it black and white. And duration of ride and frequency of ride DO affect whether the horse can carry the rider without compromise, clearly. Not black and white, though as I say, we could choose an upper limit that almost everyone agreed with, for sure.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

So you can be too heavy as long as you're a good rider with your pelvis in the right position?

I can't see that the weight a horse has to carry is anything other than a black & white situation.

Every weight on a horses back is too much. They are not structurally designed to carry weight. Therefore every step possible should be taken to minimise the damage that we cause; from rider weight & fitness, horse weight and fitness, tack fit, conditioning for different surfaces, hoof care, dental care and so it goes on.

I don't care what anyone claims, *everyone* is aware of their general size regardless of how happy or not they are. What I don't get is why people who know they are heavy (couldn't care less if it from solid muscle and they are at elite fitness levels or not) think its OK to climb onto a horse.

I'm not sure how many times I can keep clarifying. My words are pretty clear I think and they are not this.

I think this IS what you keep saying in one way or another. And what @ycbm keep pointing out legitmises over-heavy riders because they use balance, experience, posture, saddle etc to justify why it is ok to ride.

I agree with the posters saying the upper limit whould be the upper limit (and yes that includes that dressage master). Nothing lightens that, while lots of things make weight EVEN harder to carry. Meaning riders should be even lighter.

Rucksacks are a good example. A badly fitted rucksacl exerting pressure on the wrong places and lifted with poor posture is far, far harder to carry than a well fitted one, carried predominantly via the waist bands round the hips, and lifted correctly with correct posture. But a 35kg sack is a 35kg sack and never feels like a 20kg one.

 

[sbloom]

It really isn't what I'm saying but yes we are disagreeing whether there can be factors that affect whether a rider IS too heavy for a horse rather than simply looking at horse and rider. I disagree with ycbm that, to the best standard we currently have, we can't judge if we're harming a horse until post mortem. We are increasingly understanding what dysfunctional movement patterns do, and if we get better at spotting them, education, then we can eliminate harm in the grey area. In everyone better understood functional movement we'd eliminate harm in so many areas of riding. Dissection will only help us in this area of course, and the line as to what causes harm may change, but the highest bar at the moment is pretty high.

Of course the two rucksacks don't feel the same, but the circumstances in which 5kg more would cause harm, be detrimental to the person, would be specific and as you say, would relate to loading, duration, if the person is strong or weak, if they are already conditioned to carry a rucksack without dysfunction. I understand a simple black and white answer would make most here happy but I think if it's set as low as some want it will be extremely problematic and not really add to equine welfare.

 

[ycbm]

I'm not sure how many times I can keep clarifying. My words are pretty clear I think and they are not this.

Not clear at all SB, you have said there is a grey area around the weight limit wherethe rider's placement and horse's training will make the riders weight OK.

The rest of us are saying that there is a fixed top limit, above which nobody should be on the horse back.

And now you have repeated it again in post 164.

 

[ycbm]

We are increasingly understanding what dysfunctional movement patterns do, and if we get better at spotting them, education, then we can eliminate harm in the grey area.

You can't reasonably make this claim. Just because we are getting better at spotting obvious dysfunction and obvious harm does not mean that we have eliminated harm.

I have leveled up Charlie's shoulders and chest, developed his neck top line and built up whacks of missing back muscle. I would be fooling myself if I thought this meant that he can now carry a heavier rider than me, or even me, without harm.
.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Not being too heavy for your horse is BASIC. It is simple. It is black and white. It is fundamental. As is tack that is the right size for the horse and fits reasonably well and a horse that is sound. Once those BASICS are in place, then by all means get technical. I am sure there is a legitimate place for detailed analysis of dysfunctional movement patterns and the pelvic/saddle/back interface and posture and pre-conditioning. But none of those more sophisticated areas mean you can put 16+ stone on a horse's back and make that ok. And for all the detailed 'weight is all very complicated' answers, no it really isn't.

 

[Roxylola]

Nothing can make a too heavy rider lighter. Was the chap who was pictured on the pony doing a nice job as a rider? From the picture and history it sounds like it. Was he an acceptable weight to sit on briefly occasionally? I'd say yes - he doesn't look very heavy in the pictures. Would he be light enough to ride the pony regularly for 20 or 30 minutes? In my opinion no, and I'd hope that today with what we know now he'd agree.
So there are lines to be drawn.
Some people are too heavy to ride.
Some people are too heavy to ride some horses but OK on others.
Some riders are sufficiently skilled and balanced and ride horses who are also skilled and fit that they are safely able to be at the top end of what the horse can carry.
Other riders are less balanced and need to be a lower % of the horses weight to allow the horse to carry them with minimal detriment to the horse.
The most optimal tack should be used facilitate the rider sitting in a balanced position and minimize the impact of their weight on the horse, however this does not negate the above points.

Bit like the heat scale for dogs - over 30 is too hot to be walking any dog, so we have a line but below that line there can be nuances- a fat frenchy might struggle at 15 whereas a fit whippet is still happy running at 25

 

[Roxylola]

Just to add @sbloom - you're right that we can absolutely know we are doing harm without a post mortem as you say movement patterns, muscle development etc. However we can't absolutely know we are not doing harm without a post mortem. We may be doing all the best things possible but we can't be sure we are not causing damage or harm to some degree

 

[sbloom]

Are we going to legislate for all the crooked riders, and the riders riding their horse too deep, too crooked, putting them in crappy saddles, riding on the same surfaces all the time, not turning out yadda yadda? Are riders truly educated to see and understand fully what dysfunctional movement is? I'm trying desperately to avoid whataboutery but it's really hard.

As I have said at least once I am simply saying I would set the limit higher than many of you and seek to educate about what dysfunction and correct movement is. Then we're doing way more across the board to prevent damage than we would by banning slightly lighter riders.

 

[Roxylola]

Are we going to legislate for all the crooked riders, and the riders riding their horse too deep, too crooked, putting them in crappy saddles, riding on the same surfaces all the time, not turning out yadda yadda? Are riders truly educated to see and understand fully what dysfunctional movement is? I'm trying desperately to avoid whataboutery but it's really hard. I am simply saying I would set the limit higher than many of you and seek to educate about what dysfunction and correct movement is. Then we're doing way more across the board to prevent damage than we would by banning slightly lighter riders.

I don't think we really fundamentally disagree.
There should be an absolute limit. That there is then some room for nuance is also true.
That there are other things as bad and/or worse than a rider who's skilled but heavy occasionally is again absolutely true.
We have come a long way and have a long way to go.
There are times as a trainer I am conflicted, a crooked horse with an uneducated rider who is struggling in an arena. If I say the horse is not strong enough for the work and refuse to teach suggesting maybe some mechanical horse time for the rider and groundwork for the horse the rider will continue to ride (badly) I'm the arena, maybe multiple times a week. If I teach them despite the horse being compromised I can often encourage them to hack more, put a few exercises in place to help them both improve.
It's hard being a professional who puts the horse at the forefront of everything we still have to make compromises as most riders will go elsewhere and find someone who cares less about welfare and will say what they want to hear. Sometimes we have to do the best we can for the picture in front of us

 

[sbloom]

I don't think we disagree either, but I don't think I agree with a 15% limit, otherwise my arguments are essentially trying to educate, that we need to see more, understand more, and really know WHEN a horse is struggling, not just when it's flipping obvious as it was with the little pony I mentioned. And the very personal bit to me, to help people understand about how it's not always about optimum saddle fit for the horse, and spreading the weight of the rider, HOW we load the horse should also improve, I see the difference all the time.

 

[ycbm]

Are we going to legislate for all the crooked riders, and the riders riding their horse too deep, too crooked, putting them in crappy saddles, riding on the same surfaces all the time, not turning out yadda yadda?

No because there is no way to do that, it's a judgement call with nobody in a position of authority to make the judgement.

There is, though, an easy way to set a top weight limit and it's getting overdue that we do that, I think.

As I have said at least once I am simply saying I would set the limit higher than many of you and seek to educate about what dysfunction and correct movement is. Then we're doing way more across the board to prevent damage than we would by banning slightly lighter riders.

I don't share your belief in the ability of enough heavy riders to be educated in the near enough future. A weight limit at shows would really advance that by bringing it slap bang into everyone's faces.

What is your own figure for the % weight at which no rider should be on a horse?

 

[Roxylola]

I don't think we disagree either, but I don't think I agree with a 15% limit, otherwise my arguments are essentially trying to educate, that we need to see more, understand more, and really know WHEN a horse is struggling, not just when it's flipping obvious as it was with the little pony I mentioned. And the very personal bit to me, to help people understand about how it's not always about optimum saddle fit for the horse, and spreading the weight of the rider, HOW we load the horse should also improve, I see the difference all the time.

Personally I think 15 and under is the ideal but I'd set the bar at 20% - more than that being too much for more than the briefest of sits by an excellent rider for a specific purpose.

 

[Cortez]

No because there is no way to do that, it's a judgement call with nobody in a position of authority to make the judgement.

If judges, stewards, show officials, vets, saddle fitters, instructors, equine publications, etc. would just get it together and enforce a limit - some do already, but everyone needs to get on board - then perhaps the message would get through.

 

[Pedantic]

20 stone people, identifying as 8.5 stone, sooooo glad the 13.2 hh pony understands that, nope nothing to see here, meanwhile, in the real world, Roy chubby Browns slogan is apt

 

[Ample Prosecco]

The people who are called out on SM (where this thread began) and who are then protected by dozens of 'you look fine' comments are often likely to be WAY WAY over 15%. Or even 20%. We are not talking about the grey areas here.

I really feel for those riders. How on earth is a beginner rider meant to know that they are too heavy for a horse not designed to carry them, if they keep being told they are fine, they find teachers to teach them and fitters to fit them, and there are celebrated role models out there who are far too heavy for their horses. ALL rider organisations: BE, BS, FEI, BHS, PC, Breed Societies need to publish and enforce weight limits to change the narrative.

Are we going to legislate for all the crooked riders, and the riders riding their horse too deep, too crooked, putting them in crappy saddles, riding on the same surfaces all the time, not turning out yadda yadda? Are riders truly educated to see and understand fully what dysfunctional movement is? I'm trying desperately to avoid whataboutery but it's really hard.

As I have said at least once I am simply saying I would set the limit higher than many of you and seek to educate about what dysfunction and correct movement is. Then we're doing way more across the board to prevent damage than we would by banning slightly lighter riders.

You keep talking of 'education' but a) you are talking particle physics when people have not yet learned to count. Teach the basics first. Then get more sophisticated about how we can be 'even better' for our horses. And b) we are actiively teachig the wrong things through an omerta around weight and lack of a clear positon from the official organisations.

If judges, stewards, show officials, vets, saddle fitters, instructors, equine publications, etc. would just get it together and enforce a limit - some do already, but everyone needs to get on board - then perhaps the message would get through.

I read @ycbm s position to be that legislating for crooked riders etc would be hopelessly impractical. I think she would support your suggestions.

 

[sbloom]

How about we get vets to vet the horse as suitable for the rider only when it's able to carry their weight, trainers to ask about weight on a booking form (it's easy that way) and physios to comment when they find signs that the horse is struggling? So often all three of these professionals have, often by omission, given the green light and it falls to saddle fitters to be the bearer of bad news and so often this is taken as the fitter being useless and just not having the right saddle/approach and a cop-out. Like our jobs and reputations aren't difficult enough...

 

[GrassChop]

What is your own figure for the % weight at which no rider should be on a horse?

I'd be interested to know this SB too.

However, I assume that one of the points that SB is making is that whilst it's black and white saying so and so is too heavy for said horse, it also depends on everything else. If you go by figures, any horse weighing 500kg can only take 75kg of weight and that's that. But what if the horse is big boned, broad and a heavier breed - would the same figures still apply? (Sorry if I've understood this point wrong SB)

 

[stangs]

To be fair to sbloom, there is a lot of nuance that tends to get lost in these discussions. We all agree that 20% should be the absolute limit, fine, but there's so much more that needs to be considered:

Should there be lower weight limits for eventing/SJ, where the force acting on the horse’s back is much higher, than the weight limits used by trekking centres who take novices on 30min rides in walk, in the same way that horses tend to carry heavier pack than riders (as a pack horse rarely trots or canters, which would increase the force)? How do we adjust the limit for youngsters - is it really fair on horses that the breaking process takes them from never having carried weight to suddenly carrying 9st+? (I know there are obvious anatomical differences, but any hiker will tell you what a killer it is to put a full backpack on after not having worn one in a while.) How do we factor back length or general poor conformation into the equation? What happens to disciplines where weight handicaps are applied; given that we want horses to be carrying as little as possible for their welfare, is it fair to penalise them for success like that?

Yes, we need more societies/organisations to be clearly providing a rule for weight limit and details on how this rule should be enforced. Yes, we need to crack down on riders respecting the basic 15/20% rule before we start adding specifics. But we also need to talk nuance, and I'm surprised no one's mentioned yet how limited the research on rider weight is. I'm yet to find a single paper looking at the effect of rider weight over fences; there's very limited breed variation in papers (warmblood types or Icelandics - that's it); every paper uses older horses that have been in work for several years, etc.

Some conclusions from papers on rider body weight below if anyone's interested in research that's not the dodgy Dyson paper - but note how preliminary all this work is. There is so much more that we need to learn if we want to truly improve welfare as regards rider weight. Generalised 15%/20% rules aren't enough.

Spoiler

• Stefánsdóttir et al., 2017: Increasing the BWR [ratio between horse and rider weight] from 20% to 35% increased HR, Lac, RT and BF responses [heart rate, plasma lactate concentration, rectal temperature, breathing frequency] in the group of experienced adult Icelandic riding horses tested here. The horses mainly worked aerobically until the BWR reached 22.7%, but considerable individual differences (17.0% to 27.5%) existed which were not linked to horse size, but to back BCS [body score condition].
• Gunnarsson et al., 2017: Increasing BWR from 20% to 35% did not affect beat, symmetry and height of front leg lift in tölt. However, it decreased stride length, increased DF [relative stride stance], proportionally to the same extent on all limbs, and increased BPS [bipedal support] at the expense of decreased UPS [unipedal support]. These changes can be expected to lower the quality of tölt by appearing as heavier movements and shorter strides when evaluated subjectively. If increased DF, number of strides and shorter strides have any implication for horse’s welfare it needs further investigation.
• De Cocq et al., 2004: This study confirms that loading of the dorsal back region with weights [75kg on horses with a mean weight of 568kg, that's 13%] does influence posture during exercise. An overall extending effect on the back, but no effect on mobility, was observed. Although no causal relationship can be concluded from this study, these changes in back motion are consistent with those allegedly implicated in the pathogenesis of kissing spines. It seems that the horse tries to compensate for the extending effect of the saddle by increasing retraction of the forelimbs.
• Winther Christensen et al., 2020: Increasing rider weight by 15% and 25% did not result in significant short-term alterations in heart rate, salivary cortisol, behavior and gait symmetry in dressage horses during a standard dressage test. Maximum horse:rider weight ratios were 15–23%. Thus, within this weight ratio range and during light exercise, acute increases in rider weight did not induce changes in these parameters. Further studies on the effect of rider weight in various equestrian disciplines as well as long-term effects are required before appropriate guidelines for rider weight can be developed.
• Wilk et al., 2020: A rider BW load weighing approximately 20% of the horse BW led to a substantial increase in the superficial temperatures of the neck, front, middle, and back parts of the trunk in relation to these body parts’ temperatures when the load was about 10% BW. Moreover, the temperature of the head and limbs (especially) were not significantly affected by the load of the exercised horse. It should be noted that a load of 10% of the horse BW significantly influenced only the temperature of the back and positively affected the horse’s autonomic nervous system in relation to the resting measurements.
• de Oliveira et al., 2020: Performing GYM training [in-hand work including poles, reinback and tight circles] four times per week improves the horse’s gait quality as shown by a more regular and symmetrical stride and a larger range of dorsoventral motion of the cranial trunk which provide a better therapeutic riding experience. Horses that underwent a 90 days course of core training exercises were better able to retain the quality of the gaits with heavier riders up to 25% BWR. The improvement in gait symmetry may reduce injury risk and enhance longevity of horses used in therapeutic riding.