Pandering to overweight riders

[SEL]

When I booked the vetting for baby cob along with general questions about what I wanted him for the vet did tactfully ask - on phone - if a 14h cob was going to be "up to weight" for me as a rider. When the Appy was having all her issues another vet said she'd prefer her to carrying sub 10 stone inc tack (she's 620 kg on a weighbridge when fit)

Maybe I've just got more direct vets??

But you certainly don't win friends / clients as a professional working with horses and pointing out weight of rider is an issue. I've had that first hand with a sore horse for bodywork - but then I'd rather not have repeat visits for a horse I know isn't going to improve. It's hard but if the obviously heavy riders are called out and it becomes more mainstream that it isn't acceptable then maybe riders will think twice. Or at least stop saying you look fine luv as the horse is pulling all kinds of faces under saddle.

 

[ycbm]

How about we get vets to vet the horse as suitable for the rider only when it's able to carry their weight, trainers to ask about weight on a booking form (it's easy that way) and physios to comment when they find signs that the horse is struggling? So often all three of these professionals have, often by omission, given the green light and it falls to saddle fitters to be the bearer of bad news and so often this is taken as the fitter being useless and just not having the right saddle/approach and a cop-out. Like our jobs and reputations aren't difficult enough...

I can hear your pain in this post SB. Your suggestions are all good ones.

I would have thought having a declared maximum % rider/horse weight clearly stated in your marketing material would make it clear to people likely to damage your reputation that they should consult a different fitter and save you a heap of grief.
.

 

[tristar]

I'm not sure how many times I can keep clarifying. My words are pretty clear I think and they are not this.

i think you are getting there

the weight thing is a separate issue, almost, perhaps what you are trying to find the words for is that given time for the horse to develop and use the right motions to carry itself and its rider, can mean the ease of movement brought about through the training and preparation enables the horse to use the whole body in such a way the actual work becomes effortless, [to the horse], although it is in reality loaded by the rider the processes through which it has passed can seem to allow it work without damaging itself and remain sound for its working life.

the rider does not have to sit heavily on the horse, can use the seat pressure as and when needed, if when i ride i often carry my weight in the stirrups, although that is not correct cause the weight is the weight, it does help me to keep my weight from pressing down on the back muscles in a driving seat, and i find it lets the horse bring up its back and step under, i can sit lightly or engage the seat bones but always in a forward way

i mean all this stuff is not new

its there for anyone who gets on a horse to find

and the placing of the rider over the point of balance lets them sit still, makes it easier to take command of their own movements and makes it easy to follow the movement, so the forward movement is not blocked, the horse is doing the work, the rider follows the horse cos they are in the right place to do so

this is why i prefer flatter seated saddles so i can sit where i need to be, and not fixed by blocks or seats with the deepest part of the tree too far back for me anyway

i do not mean to be rude in anyway ,i think you are trying to get to the same place i am actually and sometimes you have glimpses of something that is so hard to define

i think a lot of problems come from rushing on in the early stages, not ensuring the horse is truly straight for example, before advancing, so it is doomed from the start and carries the crookedness onwards with the ensuing compensations

 

[tristar]

How about we get vets to vet the horse as suitable for the rider only when it's able to carry their weight, trainers to ask about weight on a booking form (it's easy that way) and physios to comment when they find signs that the horse is struggling? So often all three of these professionals have, often by omission, given the green light and it falls to saddle fitters to be the bearer of bad news and so often this is taken as the fitter being useless and just not having the right saddle/approach and a cop-out. Like our jobs and reputations aren't difficult enough...

great idea

 

[Cortez]

To be fair to sbloom, there is a lot of nuance that tends to get lost in these discussions. We all agree that 20% should be the absolute limit, fine, but there's so much more that needs to be considered:

Should there be lower weight limits for eventing/SJ, where the force acting on the horse’s back is much higher, than the weight limits used by trekking centres who take novices on 30min rides in walk, in the same way that horses tend to carry heavier pack than riders (as a pack horse rarely trots or canters, which would increase the force)? How do we adjust the limit for youngsters - is it really fair on horses that the breaking process takes them from never having carried weight to suddenly carrying 9st+? (I know there are obvious anatomical differences, but any hiker will tell you what a killer it is to put a full backpack on after not having worn one in a while.) How do we factor back length or general poor conformation into the equation? What happens to disciplines where weight handicaps are applied; given that we want horses to be carrying as little as possible for their welfare, is it fair to penalise them for success like that?

Yes, we need more societies/organisations to be clearly providing a rule for weight limit and details on how this rule should be enforced. Yes, we need to crack down on riders respecting the basic 15/20% rule before we start adding specifics. But we also need to talk nuance, and I'm surprised no one's mentioned yet how limited the research on rider weight is. I'm yet to find a single paper looking at the effect of rider weight over fences; there's very limited breed variation in papers (warmblood types or Icelandics - that's it); every paper uses older horses that have been in work for several years, etc.

Some conclusions from papers on rider body weight below if anyone's interested in research that's not the dodgy Dyson paper - but note how preliminary all this work is. There is so much more that we need to learn if we want to truly improve welfare as regards rider weight. Generalised 15%/20% rules aren't enough.

Spoiler

• Stefánsdóttir et al., 2017: Increasing the BWR [ratio between horse and rider weight] from 20% to 35% increased HR, Lac, RT and BF responses [heart rate, plasma lactate concentration, rectal temperature, breathing frequency] in the group of experienced adult Icelandic riding horses tested here. The horses mainly worked aerobically until the BWR reached 22.7%, but considerable individual differences (17.0% to 27.5%) existed which were not linked to horse size, but to back BCS [body score condition].
• Gunnarsson et al., 2017: Increasing BWR from 20% to 35% did not affect beat, symmetry and height of front leg lift in tölt. However, it decreased stride length, increased DF [relative stride stance], proportionally to the same extent on all limbs, and increased BPS [bipedal support] at the expense of decreased UPS [unipedal support]. These changes can be expected to lower the quality of tölt by appearing as heavier movements and shorter strides when evaluated subjectively. If increased DF, number of strides and shorter strides have any implication for horse’s welfare it needs further investigation.
• De Cocq et al., 2004: This study confirms that loading of the dorsal back region with weights [75kg on horses with a mean weight of 568kg, that's 13%] does influence posture during exercise. An overall extending effect on the back, but no effect on mobility, was observed. Although no causal relationship can be concluded from this study, these changes in back motion are consistent with those allegedly implicated in the pathogenesis of kissing spines. It seems that the horse tries to compensate for the extending effect of the saddle by increasing retraction of the forelimbs.
• Winther Christensen et al., 2020: Increasing rider weight by 15% and 25% did not result in significant short-term alterations in heart rate, salivary cortisol, behavior and gait symmetry in dressage horses during a standard dressage test. Maximum horse:rider weight ratios were 15–23%. Thus, within this weight ratio range and during light exercise, acute increases in rider weight did not induce changes in these parameters. Further studies on the effect of rider weight in various equestrian disciplines as well as long-term effects are required before appropriate guidelines for rider weight can be developed.
• Wilk et al., 2020: A rider BW load weighing approximately 20% of the horse BW led to a substantial increase in the superficial temperatures of the neck, front, middle, and back parts of the trunk in relation to these body parts’ temperatures when the load was about 10% BW. Moreover, the temperature of the head and limbs (especially) were not significantly affected by the load of the exercised horse. It should be noted that a load of 10% of the horse BW significantly influenced only the temperature of the back and positively affected the horse’s autonomic nervous system in relation to the resting measurements.
• de Oliveira et al., 2020: Performing GYM training [in-hand work including poles, reinback and tight circles] four times per week improves the horse’s gait quality as shown by a more regular and symmetrical stride and a larger range of dorsoventral motion of the cranial trunk which provide a better therapeutic riding experience. Horses that underwent a 90 days course of core training exercises were better able to retain the quality of the gaits with heavier riders up to 25% BWR. The improvement in gait symmetry may reduce injury risk and enhance longevity of horses used in therapeutic riding.

How about some common sense is applied, people stop pussyfooting around and tell overweight riders when they are too heavy to ride. Research is great, but really in the circumstances we're discussing is only serving to win arguments with the deluded.

 

[GrassChop]

How about some common sense is applied, people stop pussyfooting around and tell overweight riders when they are too heavy to ride. Research is great, but really in the circumstances we're discussing is only serving to win arguments with the deluded.

Because, as mentioned over the last 185 posts, it isn't that simple.

I think if someone says "you're too heavy for your horse, please dismount and leave", it would just leave room for argument for all other factors that haven't been taken into consideration. One horse might be able to take 15-20% whilst another one can't. To eliminate arguments, there have to be facts.

 

[Goldenstar]

I wonder sometimes when people ask where they can get Plus Size riding clothes. A little voice inside me says "if you are Plus Size should you be riding anyway?" But I suppose that is Fatist.

I think some of the examples of people giving their own weight on their own animals are a bit on the light side. I always remember the Hunter weights - 12, 14 and 16 stone and that a TB racehorse is expected to gallop and jump 3 miles carrying 12stone 7lb or even 13 stone in point to points.

I am a broad build in that my dress size is 14-16 and I daresay some people would be horrified at that. I sold a horse because I felt I was too heavy for her, she was 15.1 TB x Hannoverian, although non of the professionals I asked - riding instructor and vet - seemed to think it was a problem. I was about 11 stone and in the end the person who bought her seemed to be about the same build as me, and she specifically asked her vet when he was vetting her.

It’s perfectly possible to be plus size and be riding a horse who can carry you .

 

[stangs]

How about some common sense is applied, people stop pussyfooting around and tell overweight riders when they are too heavy to ride. Research is great, but really in the circumstances we're discussing is only serving to win arguments with the deluded.

Christ, a brick wall would be more insightful.

Common sense doesn’t mean anything really; everyone thinks their common sense is the truth. Common sense in some places is that a native type can carry 1st per hand. Common sense in other places is that a 13hh pony can carry a 6ft man or 40% of its weight in pack. Will your beloved common sense fill in the answers to the questions in my previous post?

If someone is deluded, your “it’s common sense” alone isn’t going to convince them to stop riding it if they think it’s happy. And “not pussyfooting around” may well put them on the defensive and make them choose to ignore you. Which isn’t in the interest of the horse’s welfare either, but, hey, at least it makes the speaker feel better about themselves.

 

[ycbm]

Because, as mentioned over the last 185 posts, it isn't that simple.

I think if someone says "you're too heavy for your horse, please dismount and leave", it would just leave room for argument for all other factors that haven't been taken into consideration. One horse might be able to take 15-20% whilst another one can't. To eliminate arguments, there have to be facts.

It is simple.

"No horse attending this event should carry over xx% of its 3/5 condition score weight".

xx to be set at the maximum weight for a balanced rider on a well muscled horse.

That would be such a huge step forward for horse welfare that for the moment there is no point thinking about adding the judgement call of how much xx should be reduced for an unbalanced rider/green horse/weak conformation/ etc etc etc
.

 

[tristar]

How about some common sense is applied, people stop pussyfooting around and tell overweight riders when they are too heavy to ride. Research is great, but really in the circumstances we're discussing is only serving to win arguments with the deluded.

let us know how you get on with that method

 

[tristar]

It is simple.

"No horse attending this event should carry over xx% of its 3/5 condition score weight".

xx to be set at the maximum weight for a balanced rider on a well muscled horse.

That would be such a huge step forward for horse welfare that for the moment there is no point thinking about adding the judgement call of how much xx should be reduced for an unbalanced rider/green horse/weak conformation/ etc etc etc

well if everyone was weighed, no one would feel persecuted, the scales are the scales

 

[marmalade76]

I wonder sometimes when people ask where they can get Plus Size riding clothes. A little voice inside me says "if you are Plus Size should you be riding anyway?" But I suppose that is Fatist.

I think some of the examples of people giving their own weight on their own animals are a bit on the light side. I always remember the Hunter weights - 12, 14 and 16 stone and that a TB racehorse is expected to gallop and jump 3 miles carrying 12stone 7lb or even 13 stone in point to points.

I am a broad build in that my dress size is 14-16 and I daresay some people would be horrified at that. I sold a horse because I felt I was too heavy for her, she was 15.1 TB x Hannoverian, although non of the professionals I asked - riding instructor and vet - seemed to think it was a problem. I was about 11 stone and in the end the person who bought her seemed to be about the same build as me, and she specifically asked her vet when he was vetting her.

I did get myself into trouble once, it may even had been on here. Someone was moaning about not being able to find jods big enough. I said I managed to find jods to fit when I was quite pregnant so perhaps she ought to think about losing weight. Didn't go down well

 

[stangs]

It is simple.

"No horse attending this event should carry over xx% of its 3/5 condition score weight".

xx to be set at the maximum weight for a balanced rider on a well muscled horse.

That would be such a huge step forward for horse welfare that for the moment there is no point thinking about adding the judgement call of how much xx should be reduced for an unbalanced rider/green horse/weak conformation/ etc etc etc
.

If it’s so simple, why have you written xx in your post, in place of an actual number?

 

[marmalade76]

View attachment 122340
All these women could ride the same horse but some may look bigger in the saddle while others may look smaller but all within the capabilities of the same horse.
That why I don’t think just observations are good enough.
ETA: all women weigh 68kg according to the article I found the photo on.

None of them look particularly over-weight or fat to me

 

[ycbm]

If it’s so simple, why have you written xx in your post, in place of an actual number?

Because my xx is 15 and others is 20.

I would prefer it to be 15 but I can see that it would be at least a good start for it to be 20.
.

 

[Tiddlypom]

.

Because my xx is 15 and others is 20.

I would prefer it to be 15 but I can see that it would be at least a good start for it to be 20.
.

Ditto.

 

[Fellewell]

I so agree that education is the key here. If a rider can't recognise that the horse/pony beneath them is struggling then the education on this needs to be front and centre ASAP.
Is there not an argument for an experienced sympathetic rider, (perhaps on the cusp of 15/20%) using legs, body and seat to balance the horse rather than a small lightweight rider using a large assortment of ironmongery and upper body strength to achieve control? I know which picture I prefer.

 

[sassandbells]

I personally know of a person who uses lighter riders at saddle fittings, pretending they don’t ride as they’ve been refused by saddle fitters in the past as they’re too big for their ponies. When I asked about it I was told the vets said it was fine so the saddle fitter clearly didn’t know anything.

 

[sbloom]

I personally know of a person who uses lighter riders at saddle fittings, pretending they don’t ride as they’ve been refused by saddle fitters in the past as they’re too big for their ponies. When I asked about it I was told the vets said it was fine so the saddle fitter clearly didn’t know anything.

Jeez, we're on a hiding to nothing. 100% the wrong thing to do as I'm sure you all know but the rider fit affects the horse massively, in fact, if I haven't already said it, having a stable rider can make more difference than tweaking the fit for the horse.

Paperwork paperwork paperwork, with lots of signatures.

 

[tristar]

adults riding show ponies were common at one time, and they can be pretty flimsy

 

[tristar]

I so agree that education is the key here. If a rider can't recognise that the horse/pony beneath them is struggling then the education on this needs to be front and centre ASAP.
Is there not an argument for an experienced sympathetic rider, (perhaps on the cusp of 15/20%) using legs, body and seat to balance the horse rather than a small lightweight rider using a large assortment of ironmongery and upper body strength to achieve control? I know which picture I prefer

depends on the state of the horse perhaps in the first instance

but never good in the second

i know what you mean

 

[ycbm]

If a rider can't recognise that the horse/pony beneath them is struggling then the education on this needs to be front and centre ASAP.

I think damage starts way before the horse horse is obviously struggling. The only way to tell is to put a lighter person on the horse, but it still might not be obvious if it's a worse rider.

 

[sbloom]

perhaps what you are trying to find the words for is that given time for the horse to develop and use the right motions to carry itself and its rider, can mean the ease of movement brought about through the training and preparation enables the horse to use the whole body in such a way the actual work becomes effortless

Thanks to all for a bit more support but specifically here yes indeed, correct progressive development, but I see the difference in 15 minutes at a saddle fitting. Doesn't mean everything's fixed by any means but of course perfect practice makes perfect, so a saddle that does this for the rider makes the practice more perfect.

 

[Goldenstar]

Riders need to work at being stable the heavier you are the more you need to work .
If you don’t know how to do this you need to find the right person to teach this .
Practice makes permanent not perfect you need to work at riding well and better all the time , the teaching of position is a bit out of fashion atm and that’s a big shame .

 

[SO1]

That is a whole different debate as these are age classes now for kids perhaps it should be less about age and more about weight and height. For example a 13.2 show pony suitable for a rider of any age not weighing more than X and not taller than Y. Some of these kids look a bit heavy on ponies including BS

adults riding show ponies were common at one time, and they can be pretty flimsy

 

[sbloom]

Riders need to work at being stable the heavier you are the more you need to work .
If you don’t know how to do this you need to find the right person to teach this .
Practice makes permanent not perfect you need to work at riding well and better all the time , the teaching of position is a bit out of fashion atm and that’s a big shame .

I'm saying the right saddle stabilises the rider, if a rider is having to work to get a neutral pelvis then that tension works against you and the horse. Sadly very few people teach stability anyway, for horse or rider, the goal is always tracking up, shoulder freedom, more movement....and yet our horses are being bred to offer that more and more, and need help stabilising. One of the first things I do once they're in the saddle is help most riders quieten their seat.

Anyway, all a bit OT....

 

[Goldenstar]

I'm saying the right saddle stabilises the rider, if a rider is having to work to get a neutral pelvis then that tension works against you and the horse. Sadly very few people teach stability anyway, for horse or rider, the goal is always tracking up, shoulder freedom, more movement....and yet our horses are being bred to offer that more and more, and need help stabilising. One of the first things I do once they're in the saddle is help most riders quieten their seat.

Anyway, all a bit OT....

What’s a bit OT ?

 

[dominobrown]

RS/ Trekking centre weight limit is around 14 stone... however it changes...
What I mean by this is it is policy we will only book you in if we have a suitable horse... so we have a few horses that take heavier weights, but we could't accommodate 10 heavy riders on the same day. Also we give the 'weight carrying' horses 'light' days etc when if they normally take a heavy beginner we will give them a really light person or use them as trek lead so they can have a lighter rider on, otherwise I imagine they will begin to hate being ridden.
So.. essentially on a certain day if you try and book last minute we are really clear that we cannot guarantee a booking depending 100% on the horses.

Some people are fine and are happy to do something else... others make a fuss. We do have scales and very occasionally weighed people. Was joking we could do with a rider weighbridge as its getting very common people underestimate their weight.. interesting to see we are not the only ones having problems.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

How about we get vets to vet the horse as suitable for the rider only when it's able to carry their weight, trainers to ask about weight on a booking form (it's easy that way) and physios to comment when they find signs that the horse is struggling? So often all three of these professionals have, often by omission, given the green light and it falls to saddle fitters to be the bearer of bad news and so often this is taken as the fitter being useless and just not having the right saddle/approach and a cop-out. Like our jobs and reputations aren't difficult enough...

Actually I agree with this. It should not be down to individual professionals who are trying to make a living to swim against the tide.

That’s why I think it should be regulatory bodies to start with. Plus vettings is a great idea. The vet could write on the vetting that the recommended weight range for this horse is xxxx.

And it then would filter through and become much easier for instructors/fitters etc to address.

 

[tristar]

That is a whole different debate as these are age classes now for kids perhaps it should be less about age and more about weight and height. For example a 13.2 show pony suitable for a rider of any age not weighing more than X and not taller than Y. Some of these kids look a bit heavy on ponies including BS

no i meant as in riding in the ponies before the kids get on to go in the ring and training them