Panorama tonight - racing industry and slaughterhouses

[Zuzan]

................. As has been said once sold out of racing we have no further control of the horses and their new owners can do what they please with them.

And this is where decent welfare legislation that is actually up the the task come in.. a horse being sold shouldn't mean that it is put at risk of compromised welfare .. whether it's being sold from a private owner or out off the horse sport industry.

 

[paddi22]

and every horse should be developed and trained with the best chance of giving them a life after racing. I just get so furious with the 'racing industry loves horses' line, because it's totally BS. We get horses through to retrain and every single one has serious pelvic issues, back issues, ulcer issues, foot issues. the latest one in is 2 and half. totally fried, massive ulcer issues, windsucks off anything. that horse hasn't a chance of a pain free life or rehoming.

there is a PR push now to look like they are rehoming them, but it's a drop in the ocean. it needs systematic change. less horses bred, more time to develop physically, more welfare-based training and upkeep, and a workable, wide scale humane plan of action for after they finish their careers that is fully transparent.

 

[ester]

New Zealand lamb is readily available in UK supermarkets?

'Travel meat on the hook, not the hoof'

Cheaper to travel it live, no refrigeration.

 

[Tiddlypom]

there is a PR push now to look like they are rehoming them,

This. It's pure PR from the industry to try and fool the public that they actually care about these horses once they are no longer useful.

 

[Marigold4]

I agree would be better without travel involved, but then we they have to consider the end product meat and that would not travel well long distance.

You're kidding, right? So it's ok to travel a horse on three legs from Ireland so that the meat is fresher??

 

[palo1]

and every horse should be developed and trained with the best chance of giving them a life after racing. I just get so furious with the 'racing industry loves horses' line, because it's totally BS. We get horses through to retrain and every single one has serious pelvic issues, back issues, ulcer issues, foot issues. the latest one in is 2 and half. totally fried, massive ulcer issues, windsucks off anything. that horse hasn't a chance of a pain free life or rehoming.

there is a PR push now to look like they are rehoming them, but it's a drop in the ocean. it needs systematic change. less horses bred, more time to develop physically, more welfare-based training and upkeep, and a workable, wide scale humane plan of action for after they finish their careers that is fully transparent.

Yes. Racing could be so different, so much better. I didn't really rate the programme making tbh and there was a great deal of significant information missing that would have been usefully included. The content seemed cheap and pretty poor quality to me but very serious issues raised.

As a side note, a personal one; it is so galling to be the kind of owner fretting over minor concerns around horse health and happiness and like many people spending a very significant proportion of disposable income on horse welfare and know that the 'big guns' of equestrianism, with the most money, the greatest economic power, the most popular coverage and a very long and illustrious history are doing so much less....I am very sad to hear that you are dealing with such young horses, who should have had the very best of care have had less than that.

 

[Lammy]

This. It's pure PR from the industry to try and fool the public that they actually care about these horses once they are no longer useful.

Yes I too have noticed the PR push, especially since the George Elliot thing. So much blabbing about how well the horses are looked after and how much they’re cared for. I believe it but I believe that care and attention stops pretty quickly after their last race for a lot of owners and trainers.

The racehorse week is just another arm of that. None of the questionable yards will be opening theirs doors (and I have seen a couple!) and there will certainly be no mention of where their precious horses go once they’re done with. But it’s all PR just so they can show people how ‘lucky” racehorses are and it’s only a rare occasion that a horse dies in work and is sat on and treated as a commodity.

 

[Goldenstar]

We have no culture of eating horse meat in the UK there is no need for horses to be coming in here for slaughter .
Let the Irish slaughter horses in Ireland if they wish to have a trade in meat for human consumption and export to the rest of the EU on the hook .
Anyone who thinks that the current regulations prevents horses stuffed with drugs getting into the food chain is naive in the extreme .

 

[ester]

You're kidding, right? So it's ok to travel a horse on three legs from Ireland so that the meat is fresher??

Just to add that stressed animals don't make good meat, it tends to spoil more quickly. - standard for red meat in a vacuum pack chilled is 3 months. But you have to travel it refrigerated which costs so it depends what the bottom line is.

 

[Michen]

Have you ever seen a 9.5st person force half a tonne of adrenaline fueled muscle to do anything? ?? if they don't want to do it they ain't doing it! Please do pop into a yard during Racehorse Week and see how the horses are actually treated, you may well be surprised!

I actually really disagree with this. We can "force" them to do things in other ways, e.g through breaking them mentally. Just because the horse isn't physically argueing back and saying no does not mean we aren't forcing horses to comply through relentless training, routine, feed, whatever. That goes for many horse related things not just racing.

The age old "you can't force a horse to do anything look how big they are" is a load of rubbish. There is such thing as mental abuse...

 

[paddi22]

I would love a racing groom to come on and explain how well they are treated? I know top yards where the horses get no regular physio despite being worked intensively, they are just worked through with issues and a lot breakdown before they even leave training. you just look at them physically from a physio point of view and their bodies are damaged and this includes top horses racing in Cheltenham. You look at them and they have serious muscle issues, pelvic issues, ulcer issues, and these are top horses. The poor grooms end up having to learn physio stuff just to give the horses some come comfort through massage and stretches. The majority we get in have shocking teeth that have never been done. Their diet and the way they are kept promotes ulcers and vices. You see back issues from saddles being used on them that clearly didn't fit. I just can't see where the care mentioned is? they look shiny and their beds are nice, but is that enough?

If I worked in a nursery with kids, I wouldn't slap myself on the back for being kind to kids and caring for them, that's just the job. If I was putting heavy backpacks on tiny kids or working them beyond their physical ability causing growth issues in them all, then I'd seriously have to take a look at reality and the overall picture. I think racing suffers from the same sheen of glamour and tradition that hunting does and people explain away a lot of sins.

 

[shortstuff99]

There are a lot of posts on FB right now stating the whole BBC programme is 'lies'. This to me is a bad way to go about defending the industry. The horses have somehow ended up there, people can see that. To claim it is all just the slaughterhouse is disingenuous, and makes the public trust the sport even less. Far better surely to talk about how changes are going to be made, how retiring will be different, how training will be different?

 

[Goldenstar]

The guys that owned that grey horse are prolific owners in the jump racing game, I’m pretty sure they didn’t know there horse had ended up there.

Its a bit like an everyday owner selling there horse to someone who promises the horse a home for life, once changed hands you have no control over where that horse ends up unfortunately.

What I don’t get is why they don’t have them euthanised at home if they are unsuitable for rehoming, I take it it’s a money thing?

I am sure you are right they did not know where the horse ended up but they ought to have done .

 

[rascal]

There are a lot worse ends for a horse than a clean death.

Most of those sadly were NOT a clean death, being shot from a distance, most within sight of other horses. Some very lame who had travelled from Ireland to England.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I would love a racing groom to come on and explain how well they are treated?

*waves* Hi...

I know not all yards are the same but our horses are turned out for a minimum of an hour a day, every day no matter the weather. Every single horse has the physio once a month regardless, more often if needed. All have their teeth done every year. Our vet is in every Tuesday regardless so will knock any problems on the head, he will come in as and when we call as well any other day of the week. Our farriers are some of the best I'm Scotland and are in 3 days a week , Mon, Wed & Fri.

As to saddle fit - we use exercise saddles that are generically designed to fit most tb's ie they arent wide fit. Each work rider has their own tack not each horse. Some saddles are worse than others I will agree and some riders do their horses no favours but that is the same in all walks of life.

Our horses are fed hard feed 4x a day and haylage 3x. We can't feed them ad-lib as obviously they would just be fat little piggies and would have to work 10x as hard to lose it. We do train some horses from the field. All horses get turned out in big groups for their summer holidays with their own gender. Out 24/7 to be horses.

I know not all yards do this, some can't. I also know there are things we can improve on but at the same time I know we are one of the best yards for welfare standards in the country.

Oh and we also have a water treadmill, vibe plate thingy, 2 solariums and plenty of very knowledgeable staff.

 

[paddi22]

I know not all yards do this, some can't. I also know there are things we can improve on but at the same time I know we are one of the best yards for welfare standards in the country.

I honestly wish more yards were like yours and you obviously care about your horses. but even at the high level of care your yard does, if that was translated to a regular horse owner here they would be slated. If I came on and said I broke my horse as a baby, did intensive work at 2, didn't get a saddle fitted. did an hours turnout. mass fed cereal instead of forage, I'd be slated!

so even at a High end yard you still have massive physical and feeding issues? you can't think breaking them that young is good? you can't think pumping cereals instead of the trickle feed forage they are designed for is good? you can't think pushing them that hard in training so young is good? I think there is an awful lot of blind eyes being turned to serious issues. I don't mean to be attacking you because I always enjoy your posts and I appreciate you coming on in the debate as someone who is in the industry. I think it's more a theoretical debate about how someone who obviously loves horses can overlook those issues?

 

[TPO]

makes the public trust the sport even less.

Does anyone honestly think that this programme will make any difference to the general public, people who bet and people who like a day out at the races?

To make racing, or any industry, change they need to be hit where it hurts. I cant imagine this programme, or any subsequent reporting based on previous welfare reports, making the slightest bit of difference to the public.

The majority of horse people will be aware of the damage that racing does to horses and the less than ideal way that a lot of performance horses are kept (feather haired woman thread anyone?). No "horse lover" is going to say that they are anything less than a good owner but without doing "whataboutery" there is a lot of ignorance/neglect in the leisure industry. These same people are all over FB right now calling out racing while keeping their own horse who are in pain, obese, sore from ill fitting tack and carrying too heavy a rider.

It's not about what is worse, in an ideal world there would be no bad when it came to animal keeping.

Yes the racing industry has masses of scope for improvement. I could never understand why riding 2yr olds is ok let alone competing them.

Animal keeping from small pets to zoos all have bad but on the whole the general hoi poilli just don't care. Sure they are outraged for 5mins on social media but then nadda

Hopefully improvements are made in racing and more focus is put on what happens after racing but I just dont think that any programme or report will bring about any pressure from your average racing fan/race goer

Rightly or wrongly the money from racing is why our pets can get certain treatments and procedures. Racing money pays for a lot of research and "firsts"

Personally I'd be happy to see it banned and not have any horse subjected to the damage and risks. It's the edge of s rabbit hole; collection, surfaces, fixed fences, tack, riders, metal in sensitive mouths, fixed metal shoes nailed onto dynamic structures through sensitive tissue. Where's the line if we are really honest about what we subject horses to for our pleasure?

 

[rascal]

I don't know about horses but
https://www.animalaid.org.uk/slaughterhouse-illegality-cruelty-exposed/

and a worker was killed in 2013
It doesn't sound the best run place

The way those guns were being waved around, really not surprised.

 

[littleshetland]

I understand that view @littleshetland and I am not saying that racing or animal related activities can't and shouldn't be improved; I was just saying it is not simple. I don't think that we live in a society where governments or other agencies will jeopardise livelihoods, local and national economics, culture etc in favour of race horses. I can't see that as practical and there would be no appetite for it within the industry. I believe that change has to come from within and that external change/overhead changes often result in very poor outcomes but that is just my view. It is all well and good saying 'I think it's time it stopped now' but do you have a plan for disentangling something that is quite deeply embedded? Do you know and understand all the factors involved?

Im sure dismantling the racing industry and making all the people therein redundant would be a seismic undertaking and far beyond my planning skills....so no, I have no plan for untangling this deeply embedded circus of cruelty for profit, but I very much welcome any media coverage that may start some sort of ball rolling. Your quite right about the change coming from within the industry itself but in order for this to happen it would mean a major fundamental shift in peoples consciousness and how these animals are perceived. Would it be possible for people whose livelihoods and fortunes are made by these creatures to suddenly view them as sentient beings, deserving of our greatest respect and care even when they're not earning the bucks? No, thats not going to happen now, but I do believe it is possible and I live in hope although realistically I'm sure theses changes won't happen in our lifetimes, but if it's possible to sow the seed of change now, then I welcome that. The more something is deeply embedded, culturally, the more it should be thoroughly scrutinised and examined. Aboloshing slavery, toppling statues, women's rights, civil rights...you get the picture. All these huge historical changes have to start somewhere. And with regard to animals, in the light of scientific discovery, It seems not a day goes past without new scientific evidence pointing toward new discoveries of animal intelligence and emotional intelligence exceeding our expectations. We have the power to change things, no matter how many factors involved, if the will is there it will happen eventually. 'I think its time it stopped now' .....if only it would.

 

[Caol Ila]

The racing industry could do things better, but do you guys seriously think "dismantling the racing industry" wouldn't have a knock-on effect to the leisure horse industry? We're all great owners, obviously, and it's not like we're forcing our horses to live unnatural lives, carry our fat arses, wear tack, jump over solid objects, suffer metal things in their mouths....Oh, wait....

Except for that dude up in Moray, who was letting his Highlands run wild and breed as they wished. It wasn't like WHW got involved....Oh, wait.

Be careful what you wish for if PETA had their way. But it won't be in our lifetimes.

 

[celeste-izzy]

I've not watched it, nor do I intend too. However, the majority of trainers and grooms really care for these horses. It's the owners who decide to send them to auction, not the trainers.
I think these owners need to take responsibility for where their horses may end up. I also think we should have an abattoir designed for horses only in the UK. There are some very good knacker men, and some very good smaller abattoirs. But what makes them so good is their understanding of the animal in which they process.
I'm unsure if this has been filmed in the UK or Ireland, but as far as I was aware it is illegal to transport horses for slaughter from the UK. Please correct me if I am wrong.
This sadly doesn't just happen in the racing industry. I know of a well known breeder in Europe who would assess young stock from point of birth to 3yo, anything which wasnt good enough is sold into the meat industry.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I honestly wish more yards were like yours and you obviously care about your horses. but even at the high level of care your yard does, if that was translated to a regular horse owner here they would be slated. If I came on and said I broke my horse as a baby, did intensive work at 2, didn't get a saddle fitted. did an hours turnout. mass fed cereal instead of forage, I'd be slated!

so even at a High end yard you still have massive physical and feeding issues? you can't think breaking them that young is good? you can't think pumping cereals instead of the trickle feed forage they are designed for is good? you can't think pushing them that hard in training so young is good? I think there is an awful lot of blind eyes being turned to serious issues. I don't mean to be attacking you because I always enjoy your posts and I appreciate you coming on in the debate as someone who is in the industry. I think it's more a theoretical debate about how someone who obviously loves horses can overlook those issues?

I don't agree with them being broken in so young. I really don't. I personally would not run a horse before it was 4yo and thus wouldn't break it until 3yo or even early 4yo. But sadly people have no patience any more to wait for the horses. I hate juvenile flat racing. It is completely wrong imo. What we do with these horses is make their lives as good as possible for the situation they have been put in. I know I would far rather be one of our racehorses than someone's horse who is kept in a stable 24/7 and only ever ridden in a school with 4 walls. There are parts of our training regime I do not like nor agree with but the same could be said for all walks of life.

The feeding situation in racing isn't a great one as yes it does induce ulcers. Ours are also fed a good double handful of Alfa A with each feed 4x a day and 6kg of hay 3x a day. Most of our horses will munch most of it when they get it but save a little for later after they have worked. They are clever I'm that respect. They have adapted.

At the end of the day you need to weigh up the consequences of what you do and how you deal with it. I know people don't like comparisons between racing and other equine sports but in reality it's people normal pet horses that probably suffer the most but they won't want to hear that because they believe they are doing the very best for their animal and they can't possibly do anything wrong.

 

[coblets]

The racing industry could do things better, but do you guys seriously think "dismantling the racing industry" wouldn't have a knock-on effect to the leisure horse industry? We're all great owners, obviously, and it's not like we're forcing our horses to live unnatural lives, carry our fat arses, wear tack, jump over solid objects, suffer metal things in their mouths....Oh, wait....

Except for that dude up in Moray, who was letting his Highlands run wild and breed as they wished. It wasn't like WHW got involved....Oh, wait.

Be careful what you wish for if PETA had their way. But it won't be in our lifetimes.

The good news is that, even if they someone got rid of racing in the West, they'd surely still have to get rid of polo at least before leisure riders started being the ones attacked.

 

[Marigold4]

I actually really disagree with this. We can "force" them to do things in other ways, e.g through breaking them mentally. Just because the horse isn't physically argueing back and saying no does not mean we aren't forcing horses to comply through relentless training, routine, feed, whatever. That goes for many horse related things not just racing.

The age old "you can't force a horse to do anything look how big they are" is a load of rubbish. There is such thing as mental abuse...

Totally agree. We have bred them and conditioned them to be obedient and it is so wrong to take advantage of their compliant nature like this.

 

[luckyoldme]

Ignorance is no excuse.
I know where my horse ended his life . I bought him and it was my responsibility.
Racing should be honest .
The whole story is that there are a huge amount of horses which live short life's and end up at the slaughter house. No matter how much money they make for their owners
The multi millionaire s at the top end of the industry don't evan care enough to fund their own beyond reproach facility to ensure they don't suffer.
They want to be there at the racecourse and to wash their hands of the reality of the disposal of their left overs.
They need to overbreed and slaughter to achieve what they do.
They need to own all their actions..not just the flashy race track bits.

 

[Marigold4]

I don't agree with them being broken in so young. I really don't. I personally would not run a horse before it was 4yo and thus wouldn't break it until 3yo or even early 4yo. But sadly people have no patience any more to wait for the horses. I hate juvenile flat racing. It is completely wrong imo. What we do with these horses is make their lives as good as possible for the situation they have been put in. I know I would far rather be one of our racehorses than someone's horse who is kept in a stable 24/7 and only ever ridden in a school with 4 walls. There are parts of our training regime I do not like nor agree with but the same could be said for all walks of life.

The feeding situation in racing isn't a great one as yes it does induce ulcers. Ours are also fed a good double handful of Alfa A with each feed 4x a day and 6kg of hay 3x a day. Most of our horses will munch most of it when they get it but save a little for later after they have worked. They are clever I'm that respect. They have adapted.

At the end of the day you need to weigh up the consequences of what you do and how you deal with it. I know people don't like comparisons between racing and other equine sports but in reality it's people normal pet horses that probably suffer the most but they won't want to hear that because they believe they are doing the very best for their animal and they can't possibly do anything wrong.

I don't agree with them being broken in so young. I really don't. I personally would not run a horse before it was 4yo and thus wouldn't break it until 3yo or even early 4yo. But sadly people have no patience any more to wait for the horses. I hate juvenile flat racing. It is completely wrong imo. What we do with these horses is make their lives as good as possible for the situation they have been put in. I know I would far rather be one of our racehorses than someone's horse who is kept in a stable 24/7 and only ever ridden in a school with 4 walls. There are parts of our training regime I do not like nor agree with but the same could be said for all walks of life.

The feeding situation in racing isn't a great one as yes it does induce ulcers. Ours are also fed a good double handful of Alfa A with each feed 4x a day and 6kg of hay 3x a day. Most of our horses will munch most of it when they get it but save a little for later after they have worked. They are clever I'm that respect. They have adapted.

At the end of the day you need to weigh up the consequences of what you do and how you deal with it. I know people don't like comparisons between racing and other equine sports but in reality it's people normal pet horses that probably suffer the most but they won't want to hear that because they believe they are doing the very best for their animal and they can't possibly do anything wrong.

"People's normal pet horses suffer the most" You honestly believe that?!

 

[Marigold4]

Anyone know of a petition I could sign calling for the banning of racing two year olds? I'd like to do something more than just words. Or maybe someone could help me with the wording of one to get one started?

 

[Michen]

Totally agree. We have bred them and conditioned them to be obedient and it is so wrong to take advantage of their compliant nature like this.

It’s just not a valid argument to say we aren’t forcing horses into stuff because they aren’t throwing themselves on the floor and refusing. Just makes the industry look even worse.

 

[Abby-Lou]

New Zealand lamb is readily available in UK supermarkets?

'Travel meat on the hook, not the hoof'

Lamb processed in a slaughter house shipped to UK. Don't agree with live animals been shipped long distance ie from Ireland so maybe a rule

You're kidding, right? So it's ok to travel a horse on three legs from Ireland so that the meat is fresher??

I didn't say it was ok to travel a horse on three legs. A horse that is unable to travel like any other livestock should be dispatched at home and collected as fallen stock like cattle & sheep. Perhaps someone on here has some knowledge of slaughter houses in Ireland and why the need to be transported to UK ?

 

[ozpoz]

Tops spec Vet of the Year, Natalie McGoldrick has just written a brave post on Facebook saying how much she hated her time as a vet, in slaughterhouses. The horses were all terrified, without exemption, and so were cows and sheep.
I wish this was banned, and a humane destruction at home was compulsory.